OTU Only: Third Imperium Inspiration

[Supplement Four]

I'm sure that most of us know that Isaac Asimov's Foundation is one of the biggest influences on Traveller's Third Imperium and aspects of Traveller tech (among some other books).

I started reading it tonight. I was reminded that the series was awarded the Hugo for Best All-Time Science Fiction Series.

I read the first chapter, and I can see Traveller all over this thing. Although the details aren't clear, the way jump is described is definitely "Traveller".

And, just way the tone of the book reads, about the difference in regular people and those that travel among the stars--the Travellers.

Neat stuff.

 

[jcrocker]

It's great stuff, agreed.

Asimov's jump was instant, though, wasn't it? It wasn't a week.

I wonder how some of his atomic blasters would convert to Striker...

 

[aramis]

It's great stuff, agreed.

Asimov's jump was instant, though, wasn't it? It wasn't a week.

I wonder how some of his atomic blasters would convert to Striker...

There are huge doses of Niven and Pournelle. Heck, Bk 4 is almost a tribute to Falconberg's Legion.

There also is a strong dose of Starship Troopers.

From Asimov, we get the Psychohistory, and the indifferent commercial empire.

From Niven & Pournelle, we get the constant speed drives in the 1-6 Gee range. And the Black Globe (It's from Mote in God's Eye). And the nobles who are more noted for banking than fighting.

From Pournelle on his own, we get the emphasis on mercenaries; Hammer's Slammers, by Drake, is a slightly later influence, but what we get there is merely reinforcing the Mercenary aspects of Pournelle's Falconberg's Legion. (It's worth noting that Falconberg's is one end of the history of the CoDo setting, Mote & sequels is the other end.)

Dune gives us the structure of the Imperium as a non-democratic republic, bound to corporate interests and whose nobles get moved to lower their power. CHOAM is a prototype for the Moot of the 3I.

Both Pournelle and Herber give us an "Imperium"... Nobles with Corporate interests, and

Traveller is a blend of these and more... Bill the Galactic Hero, Stainless Steel Rat, Assorted Heinlein novels, Some hints of Niven's Known Space... And also Doc Smith's Lensmen (Psionics, including mention of the Lens). And the Alien Modules show a strong Doc Smith influence in richly thought out aliens. (See Little Fuzzy and sequels.)

To "See Traveller in" any one as if it's the totality is patently absurd, in the same way that judging a Roman home from a square foot of the mosaic floor... what you see might be truth, but it's not enough to make a judgement of the whole.

It's not like Vance to D&D. Vance is patently (and by Gygax's own words, explicitly) the primary source, LOTR the secondary, with the Appendix N being "Additional Inspirations"...

While Marc's explicit statements are that it's a blend of classic 50's to mid-70's space opera. Which explicitly includes Asimov's Foundation, Heinlein's Starship Troopers, Falconberg's Legion, Mote in God's Eye, Stainless Steel Rat, Star Trek, and (with Bk 5) Star Wars. Marc has repeated denied any one source being primary. Hell, open the back of Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium... and look at the NPCs in the back.

 

[inexorabletash]

Don't forget Dumarest. Agreed that there is no primary inspiration, but while Foundation inspires some of the large concerns (galactic empire, long night, Cleon, jump calculations, merchant princes, ...), Dumarest informs the more immediate (episodic adventures on varied planets, high/middle/low passage, slow/fast drug, air/rafts, ...) I'm not steeped in Niven/Pournelle lore, so defer to others there (hey Aramis!)

See also:

Deciphering the Text Foundations of Traveller (site, circa 2005)

Or, an ebook recently published by FFE: The Science Fiction In Traveller: A Reader’s Guide to Traveller Role-Playing Fiction, by Shannon Appelcline

 

[mike wightman]

MWM has explicitly stated that the main literary influence for Traveller are the Dumarest novels. You can see the influence of other works. I've never got past the first page of Foundation so I can't see its influences except through wikipedia articles, but Aramis has pretty much nailed the rest.

CHOAM is a magacorportation in the Dune universe, the Imperial Moot is closer to the Landsraad - the combined body of all noble houses.

 

[GypsyComet]

While the Terran Imperium of Poul Anderson's Flandry books is rather short-lived, the Long Night that follows is clearly deeper than Traveller's.

The reality I've observed is that each of us sees the inspirations in the literary SF that we've read, and that our own games often reflect the literary SF we prefer. This is why my Traveller free traders are more Solar Queen and David Falkayn, my hostile world colonies have a lot of Del Rey and Heinlein, my belters are both Anderson and Niven inspired, psionics are very much Norton and Foster, and my stellar empires are driven by Laumer, Foster, Anderson, and touches of Asimov, Norton, and Chalker.

 

[aramis]

Don't forget Dumarest. Agreed that there is no primary inspiration, but while Foundation inspires some of the large concerns (galactic empire, long night, Cleon, jump calculations, merchant princes, ...), Dumarest informs the more immediate (episodic adventures on varied planets, high/middle/low passage, slow/fast drug, air/rafts, ...) I'm not steeped in Niven/Pournelle lore, so defer to others there (hey Aramis!)

Of the ones mentioned, Dumarest is one I've never tried to read. Nor Dominic Flandry stories. I didn't care for Harrison.

One's own inspirations need not match Marc's, either. Foundation will make some of the choices Marc, Frank, Tim, and Loren (and later, Dave) make more sense.

Some are reactions away from the source:

• Psychohistory is erratic in the OTU, while fairly well controlled in Foundation
• I, Robot is about Robots exceeding the sum of their programming... 3I Robots are mindless automatons... except for a rare few experimentals, so as to allow them as PCs.
• Stainless Steel Rat - the crook who succeeds at almost everything... which Many a PC finds out is far easier in the novels.

I could go on, but I'd be typing for hours.

Others, go beyond their sources, with different limits in other ways.

• Psionics are more internal (but less powerful and reliable) than in Lensman.
• Jump is less constrained than in both the CoDo setting and Foundation, but a whole lot slower than Foundation. (Ironically, about the same as CoDo vis-a-vis Mote... mote's limited jump points and long travels at 1-2 G for Traveller's nearby jump points but a week in jump.
• Traveller's Aliens are fully equivalent to Mankind, unlike Doc Smith

My personal experiences are affected by a melange of sci fi, only some of it on Traveller's list... McCaffery, Bujold, Cole & Bunch, OS Card... and more (non-dune) herbert.

Sorry, the pun there was too good to forego. I forget who posted that Traveller is 10000 universes (one for every ref) in search of a common ground...

 

[Condottiere]

Vance may have been the primary source for Dungeons and Dragons, but I bet most players are more influenced by Tolkien.

Similarly with Traveller, most players are more influenced by Star Wars than silver and golden age pulp magazines.

 

[aramis]

Vance may have been the primary source for Dungeons and Dragons, but I bet most players are more influenced by Tolkien.

Similarly with Traveller, most players are more influenced by Star Wars than silver and golden age pulp magazines.

I know I grew up reading pulps. I had a subscription to Analog from grade 4 to grade 9, and Omni from grade 7-12... late 70's to late 80's.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Agent of the Imperium, FTW.

 

[Supplement Four]

I've only read the first chapter of Foundation, which is short, but it also contains a very familiar dating system.

 

[Ulsyus]

I've always thought that the travelling nature of the primary characters and their interstellar trouble-shooting exploits in Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Commonwealth series. Rollicking tales, learning about strange sophont life forms, the impact of climate and terrain on adventures, horrifying megaweapons left by long-disappeared ancient races. It's all there.

 

[Condottiere]

You had Flandry, which takes the aristocratic noblesse oblige view.

 

[Supplement Four]

Asimov's jump was instant, though, wasn't it? It wasn't a week.

The description I've read so far was vague, but I think you are correct. Instant.

 

[Supplement Four]

There are huge doses of Niven and Pournelle. Heck, Bk 4 is almost a tribute to Falconberg's Legion.

I always thought it was based on Hammer's Slammers. Thought I had read that some place.

 

[Supplement Four]

To "See Traveller in" any one as if it's the totality is patently absurd...

Disagree.

It's not like Vance to D&D. Vance is patently (and by Gygax's own words, explicitly) the primary source, LOTR the secondary, with the Appendix N being "Additional Inspirations"...

I always thought LOTR was a direct influence on D&D, but I thought Gygax denounced that time and time again.

 

[aramis]

I always thought LOTR was a direct influence on D&D, but I thought Gygax denounced that time and time again.

Gygax was lying if he did... He's repeatedly noted Chainmail lead to D&D. D&D Original Edition mentions

And Chainmail explicitly calls out Tolkien and Howard. 3rd edition, page 28.

 

[Timerover51]

Gygax also had problems with the Tolkien Estate and licensing when he was caught using Hobbits and Ents in the follow on books, and had to take them out. Hobbits turned into Halflings and Ents into Treants. I still have some early editions with hobbits and ents mentioned. Gary did owe a lot of D&D to Tolkien and Howard. One of the early supplements had Conan and Howard's Hyperborean Gods.

I look at Piper and Norton for a lot of inspiration, and some A. Bertram Chandler.

 

[nobby-w]

There are huge doses of Niven and Pournelle. Heck, Bk 4 is almost a tribute to Falconberg's Legion.[ . . . ]

Spelled Falkenberg.

 

[nobby-w]

• Stainless Steel Rat - the crook who succeeds at almost everything... which Many a PC finds out is far easier in the novels.

Stainless Steel Rat is bascially competency ⌧, which doesn't work terribly well in a role playing game where skill checks have any significant chance of failure. I think something like that would work better in a narrative-centric game like FATE.