Thorny problem with trade

[Daddicus]

I think there's a significant hole in the trade system. It's realistic, but game-bending (if not breaking).

When you buy goods at a tech level (TL), you add 100 * TL to the price. Fair enough.

When you sell goods, you multiply the final price by the TL difference * 10%.

This example uses no TC or broker mods, for brevity. The rolls to sell are 7 (100%).

Buy at TL 4 planet = 3400 Cr. Sell at TL 10 for 5000 Cr. The TL difference is -6. 60% of 5000 = 3000, so the final sale price is 2000 Cr.

Now, for the second example, reverse that route. So, goods are bought for 4000 Cr. They sell for 5000 * 1.6, or 8000 Cr.

Players could easily decide to spend their whole careers going back and forth between a TL 12 world (Karin, 0534 in Five Sisters/Spinward Marches) and the next-door neighbor TL 4 world (Penelope 0533). They would only buy goods for one direction, but could easily make it profitable enough to pay all the bills.

I like both the TL being included in purchase, and the TL being included while selling. But, it's too big, unless I'm missing something.

Anybody have any ideas how to work around it? My players are at Karin right now, and they've been doing the math ...

 

[Ackehece]

a few things modify price drastically. Broker and Trader have a vast effect on prices for buying and selling.


"Broker is a Mod (equals half Broker Skill, rounded up)
on the Actual Value Table (to a maximum of Broker-4). Brokers
receive 5% of the final sale price per DM. Broker tasks
are essentially administrative in nature; very little physical
activity is required, and even communications associated
with the situation can be automated or handled through appropriate
interfaces"

"Trader provides an understanding of market processes.
Trader allows one die on the Actual Value Table to be rolled
in advance; each level of Trader allows a throw one day in
advance of the sale date."

for native art etc...

trader has this skill
"To estimate Value
Difficult (3D) < Int + Trader
Uncertain (1D)"

"The Actual Value Table in Trade and Commerce
is Flux-driven. A character with Trader may substitute
Trader Skill for the +D in Flux on the Table (to a maximum
of +5)."

also craftsman - craftsmanship has a value multiplier that can have big gains if you buy cheap.

"A Masterpiece can be sold at Cr150,000 plus Cr10,000
per Master Point over 39. A Perfect Masterpiece (=55 points)
sells for Double (= Cr600,000). A Masterpiece increases in
value about 1% per year, but subject to Flux when sold.
A Masterpiece can be created in about three years of
steady, dedicated work. This time can be reduced by about
one month per Master Point diverted from the work."


also different types of trade especially with TL differences:

• Barter
• Frontier Trader's Ramp
• In-kind Transactions

can lead to much better returns on investment if you roleplay it well.


Trade Classifications of Planets also have trade multipliers. - role play it!
pg 487 T5.09

mail has a fixed rate of return and is always worth carrying if a regular route.

Imbalance items

Trade Good Details
If the supplying world for Random Trade Goods has additional
Trade Classifications (and one or more appears on
the Trade Good Details table) select one as a prefix:

 

[Selandia]

Yes, the players may take few hours scouring the librairy data to figure out were a money printing machine such as you described exist.

Then they purchase another ship, then another, branch out into another money printing machine and it become Roll Playing Accounting in Space.
Its up to the ref to make their life miserable enough for them to barely break even nonetheless.

Have fun
Selandia

 

[creativehum]

Can I ask a weird question?*

What do the player characters want?
And, more precisely, what do the Players want for their player characters to be wanting?

* Full disclosure. I don't think it is that weird a question. It's just that I never seen it brought up when these kinds of conversations come up.

 

[Timerover51]

A Tech Level 4 planet is not going to be able to absorb an infinite quantity of Teck Level 10 items, if for no other reason than you will have a very limited population that can afford to buy them. At Tech Level 4, in the Real World on Earth, a Dollar a day was an acceptable wage, accountants might get $50 to $80 Dollars a month, Mechanics maybe $70 or so. I have a book on wages for the period somewhere. How much Tech Level 10 stuff do you think that the average individual can buy? Is this specific types of cargo, or just a generalized "cargo" with no specific distinction?

Personally, going from Tech Level 10 to Tech Level 4, I would put a negative modifier on the roll, as a difference in 6 Tech Levels may make the item totally unusable on the lower Tech Level. Consider limited electric to no electric power production, especially away from major population centers. Then you also have the possibility of the Tech Level 4 planet deciding that it can no longer afford to run a severe balance of payments deficit with its Tech Level 10 neighbor, and slap either very high tariffs on the items, making them unsaleable, or banning the import outright. Consider the "Tariff of Abominations" from 1828 in the US.

 

[Daddicus]

It's not that I don't want them making money. But, this would be a gravy train that might cause them to not travel around, which is the whole point of the game.

Achehece, I was only using it as an example. I know about all the other factors, with the exception of "Frontier Trader's Ramp". What's that?

But, I do see the value of both the cost mod for TL and the TL delta to sales.

I think this change will prevent abuses only, while still allowing for good profits:

I'll add a cumulative negative modifier to sales from the same high-tech planet to a nearby low-tech planet. The mod only affects the TL percentage, so the main parts of the trade system aren't impacted. And, I think the effect will wear off every few months. So, if they ever come back, a long ways down the road, it will be back to normal.

Basically, it's like what Timerover51 said: the low-tech planet simply can't absorb that much high-tech stuff. So, every time they sell, it reduces future profits for the same "route" (without impacting current profits).

I'm going to ask my players what we should do about the reverse, where there's no possible profit. I'm betting they come up with something (they're sharp).

Thanks!

 

[Ackehece]

Things that might be used to complicate their trade relations. There is no reasonable assumption that the Language they know and the language spoken on the planet is the same. Goods are not subject to customs or taxes until they leave a starport. pg 271 t509

This means... as a GM get them out of the starport and into the cities. Don't allow them to do trade deals within the starport

this exposes the crew to trading where:

• It can be assumed that the starport probably will speak Anglic but buying direct from the people will require extra knowledge such as local language.
• result - must use a local broker who takes up to 20% of more each way in the transaction
• Might have to hire a translator
• Law level
  • Low Law Levels: corrupt officials might take a bribe to allow trade, might have to hire guards (that you trust???)
  • conversely: High Law Levels. Worlds with high law levels and a
    correspondingly oppressive culture impose restrictions on
    access to the starport. The perimeter interface between the
    starport and the world is heavily guarded. pg 272

• Tax Rate
  • might be high on imports and subsidize exports on Low Tech level worlds
• The **good** trade cargos are all outside of the starport
• the startown is outside of the starport
• The Ship Owners and Operators. Ship owners and
  operators serve starports which allow them to make profits.
  Even high service fees, taxes, and assessments do not deter
  them if there are profits to be made. pg 271
  • implies that high fees can be charged by the starport operators to reduce the profit margin but people will still trade....
• Selling Price is set by the actual value table ... but this table is before brokers, taxes, customs, corruption, guards, translators, etc..

Other considerations that can be applied....

• World Economic Extensions (Ex)
  • pg 404, 411
    • small economies can absorb less items.
• Importance Extension (Ix)
  • pg 411
  • if the trade route is important then the crew will be competing with mega-corporations for the route...
    • they will undercut the crew
    • they will obstruct trade deals of the crew
• Cultural Extensions (Cx)
  • high strangeness can lead to *Unusual and Incomprehensible Actions* which can inhibit trade
  • Acceptance can be low which would make it xenophobic and unwilling to trade
  • Symbols - maybe the ship name is offensive or the logo they have has religious significance to the population.
• base rates for cargo
  • Selling Goods Base Price always starts at 5,000 cr
  • buying always has a base price of 3,000
    • net before modifiers is always a 2kcr gap.
  • Tech Level Modifiers - make sure you use both for buying and selling
    • buying side High Tech Level = Higher cost to purchase (+TL x100CR) so tl 10 would would be +1000cr per unit to purchase
    • selling side (10%x(SourceTL - MarketTL)) so a 4 to 10 split 60% increase in price
      • the brackets are missing in the TL Effect formula on page 487 but the example underneath indicates that it is not ((10%xSourceTL)-MarketTL) but (10%(sourceTL -marketTL)
  • Actual Value Table is EVIL!
    • after everything you might roll a flux of -5 .... 40% value - if you roll both die YOU MUST SELL
• Cargo Might not be available to fill all available space (in fact it is likely that they will not be able to fill all space with a cargo)
  • Page 486 Table D --- notice that Cargo comes after freight is
• TL staging... just because something is built on a TL10 Planet does not mean the items is TL10 - it might be an ultimate TL5 device cheaper and better than the TL5 built device but is still basically the same.
• Societies Are Contaminated By Other Technologies
  Knowing a technology is possible corrupts the development
  process.
  Unless a society develops in true isolation, it absorbs
  other technologies as it encounters them. There is no Prime
  Directive: there is no external rule that protects developing
  technologies from interference. Individuals and companies
  are free to sell technology to any markets that will buy it.
  The result is that societies have a wide range of available
  technologies: imported devices, local adaptations,
  crude imitations, and even local alternatives. Once a society
  knows something is possible (because a visiting star captain
  had a working device), it can attempt to duplicate it. (pg 499)
  • once you sold the item once... locals will try to duplicate it and if they succeed they might want it for less next time as they already have it.
  • going from TL4 to TL 9 is not a huge step once they are exposed to the Tech. (pg 511)
    • Encountering Outside Technology. If there are encounters
      with higher technology, the sophont species can
      reasonably be expected to advance to the encountered Tech Level minus 1D within a generation, and to the encountered TL minus 1 within two generations.
    • this implies that literally within 40 years the planet will be TL9 and almost immediately Tl7

The Frontier Trader’s Ramp pg 24 t5.09
When a trader lands on a frontier world, he can try to
barter with the natives using the well-established ramp market
technique.
The trader lays out goods he wants to trade: textiles,
trinkets, tools, small devices, or other goods he feels will be
attractive to the natives.
The natives, in response, lay out goods that they think
may be attractive to the trader: woven baskets, carved stone
or organic-material totems, pieces of shiny rock (are they
diamonds? or just cheap crystals), artifacts, gold nuggets, or
whatever they have on hand.
Each side positions its goods
across from goods they want. When
each is satisfied with what the other
has to offer, they nod, or slap the
ground, or hoot, or otherwise signal acceptance,
and the participants gather
up their newly acquired goods (ideally,
both being satisfied with their side of
the bargain).

2) skill vs tech level - (this rule I find weird) Pg 113 t509
Training, Ability, and Technology Level
Individuals come from a variety of technological backgrounds
in the Traveller universe. The abilities conferred by
skills are relatively tech level independent. That is to say, an individual with an appropriate skill is experienced in the
repair and maintenance of specific devices, and he understands
their basic principles. When he encounters a device
at a higher (or lower) tech level, he probably can puzzle out
its use, maintenance and repair, especially if the appropriate
manuals or technical supplies are available.

OTOH this rule does mean that a TL4 Planet using some TL10 Tech would be a serious net consumer of Parts. which might explain the trade differential.

 

[creativehum]

The reason I asked about what the Players/PCs want is this:

If they only want a steady job making money, they are done.

Sure, one could pull the financial legs out from under them. But my question is, is a steady bank roll really their goal?

Is there some agenda they are pursuing? Some treasure? Political upheaval they want to foment? Some wrong they want to right? In Traveller play money can be a goal in and of itself... or it can be a means to an end.

I guess I'm curious if the Players have any goal besides making bank.

 

[Ackehece]

The reason I asked about what the Players/PCs want is this:

If they only want a steady job making money, they are done.

Sure, one could pull the financial legs out from under them. But my question is, is a steady bank roll really their goal?

Is there some agenda they are pursuing? Some treasure? Political upheaval they want to foment? Some wrong they want to right? In Traveller play money can be a goal in and of itself... or it can be a means to an end.

I guess I'm curious if the Players have any goal besides making bank.

yeah I tend to find players don't want to be passive money makers but active adventure seekers

 

[Supplement Four]

Is there anything in the rules to shift market conditions?

If a group of players find an avenue to exploit (which should be allowed), is that avenue always open? Or, is it open for a certain period of time?

 

[Ackehece]

Is there anything in the rules to shift market conditions?

If a group of players find an avenue to exploit (which should be allowed), is that avenue always open? Or, is it open for a certain period of time?

Between random cargo generation (you roll to determine what cargoes are available, possible interference from megacorporations if the importance of a trade world increases, the fact that TL of a planet actively trading with a higher TL neighbour will rapidly advance in TL, and the fact that once a tech has been demonstrated and can be understood by a populace it is rapidly reproduced (even if less technologically advanced ) I would expect that the window of maximum opportunity should close with time. Exploiting market conditions should always be encouraged I think I don't think that it is wrong to profit but it should reflect what happens in reality when a trade surplus in certain sectors are exploited... competition!

 

[Original_Carl]

Props to Ackehece for that comprehensive set of notes on Trade! I'd like to add a little bit to one of the items he calls out:

[*]Cultural Extensions (Cx)

• high strangeness can lead to *Unusual and Incomprehensible Actions* which can inhibit trade
• Acceptance can be low which would make it xenophobic and unwilling to trade
• Symbols - maybe the ship name is offensive or the logo they have has religious significance to the population.

• 
  
  Cultural differences cannot be understated. I think this extension on the UWP is one of the most useful for those what-am-I-going-to-do-with-these-players moments.
  
  Homogeneity -- How similar are members of the population? High homogeneity can work in your favor as a trader ("Everyone has one! Don't be left out!") or against, ("Everyone already has those. No sale.") Low homogeneity is a good indicator that your potential market on a given planet may be much smaller than the Economic Extension may indicate. It can indicate a planet of niche markets -- can absorb only so many goods of a particular type.
  
  Acceptance -- This one is pretty straightforward. Do they get along with strangers? No? Then they're probably not buying. Or maybe they'll just try and take it from you.
  
  Symbols -- After much pondering on what a "symbol" is and how symbology might manifest itself in a culture or race, this one practically needs it's own book. However, for shorthand purposes, I've taken this to be an amalgamation of art, body language, signage, and architecture -- essentially the visual presentation of the culture on a scale from austere to ostentatious to over-the-top. The higher the Symbols score, the more visually fantastic a given culture may be. That said, using Symbols for RP/Trade purposes can be as simple as, "Can you recognize and read the signs directing traders to the market?" or as subtle as a negative DM on trade negotiations because the trader/broker fails to pick up on the body language subtleties of the dominant culture. Or if you want to go the Jack Vance route, you could have the locals react badly (or pleasingly!) to the characters manner of address or their clothing. "Only actors and vomit collectors wear yellow caps!"
  
  Strangeness -- The farther the number from Zero, the farther this culture deviates from Imperial norms. The farther this number is from zero, the more difficult time you're going to have trading with that culture. And it may not be from lack of desire on the part of both parties, but simply an inability to negotiate. This could be a language barrier, or they could just be too weird to trade with. Maybe it takes a month-long ritual followed by a human sacrifice before they can accept goods from offworld traders. Maybe they want to have a feast and invite the characters to chop off a toe in solidarity with the revelers and throw it into the stew pot so that they all may share in the delights of each other's company before exchanging goods. I love strangeness.
  
  Good luck, fellow Traveller!

 

[Spenser TR]

Cultural Extensions (Cx)

• high strangeness can lead to *Unusual and Incomprehensible Actions* which can inhibit trade
• Acceptance can be low which would make it xenophobic and unwilling to trade
• Symbols - maybe the ship name is offensive or the logo they have has religious significance to the population.

I feel like this could definitely go the other way, just as likely. High strangeness denotes a particular fondness for the group's otherwise low-value cargo. Low acceptance could definitely be negative, but lots of homework/luck/tip off could bounce this the other way. Symbols, also this could really go either way, not inherently negative. The logos could just as easily be positive unless you interpret the Symbols rating as "we dislike symbols in general."

 

[McPerth]

I think there's a significant hole in the trade system. It's realistic, but game-bending (if not breaking).

When you buy goods at a tech level (TL), you add 100 * TL to the price. Fair enough.

When you sell goods, you multiply the final price by the TL difference * 10%.

This example uses no TC or broker mods, for brevity. The rolls to sell are 7 (100%).

Buy at TL 4 planet = 3400 Cr. Sell at TL 10 for 5000 Cr. The TL difference is -6. 60% of 5000 = 3000, so the final sale price is 2000 Cr.

Now, for the second example, reverse that route. So, goods are bought for 4000 Cr. They sell for 5000 * 1.6, or 8000 Cr.

Players could easily decide to spend their whole careers going back and forth between a TL 12 world (Karin, 0534 in Five Sisters/Spinward Marches) and the next-door neighbor TL 4 world (Penelope 0533). They would only buy goods for one direction, but could easily make it profitable enough to pay all the bills.

I like both the TL being included in purchase, and the TL being included while selling. But, it's too big, unless I'm missing something.

Anybody have any ideas how to work around it? My players are at Karin right now, and they've been doing the math ...

First of all, let me state that I don't know T5, but for what you told and other bits I colleted it uses the same system (I guess with some changes) that began with CT:LBB7 Merchant Prince and that (for reasons that escape me) has survived though MT, TNE, T4 and, for what I understand, T5 (not sure about other versions, except MgT1E that uses a fully different system, I guess based on the excellent variant Don McKinney developed for MT).

About what I think about this system, I posted it in this post (and some others, but basically is the same).

Asfor your exaple specifically, see that in the return trip, where no profit is expected for specualtive cargo (and unless T5 has changed it), they can carry freight at the flat 1000 Cr/ton, still making some profit...

 

[Ackehece]

I feel like this could definitely go the other way, just as likely. High strangeness denotes a particular fondness for the group's otherwise low-value cargo. Low acceptance could definitely be negative, but lots of homework/luck/tip off could bounce this the other way. Symbols, also this could really go either way, not inherently negative. The logos could just as easily be positive unless you interpret the Symbols rating as "we dislike symbols in general."

oh I absolutely agree. But he was looking for ways to stop his players from playing "Merchant Prince" and to start playing "Traveller" screwing the players over is a time honoured tradition for moving players more toward where the GM would like them to be whilst still allowing agency on part of the Players and their PCs.

 

[Ackehece]

As for your example specifically, see that in the return trip, where no profit is expected for speculative cargo (and unless T5 has changed it), they can carry freight at the flat 1000 Cr/ton, still making some profit...

cargo is still flat 1000cr/ton and is picked up during the process before cargo is (and thus takes up room from the players buying cargo)

 

[Daddicus]

In general, I like the trade system, including most everything you guys mentioned.

My only problem is the large impact tech level has on the value of trades. And, that if they find a pair of planets with a large TL difference, they might give up "Travelling" for $.

But, in a merchant-oriented universe, finding such a trade route is a big goal. So, I don't want to just take that away from them.

I'm liking my "diminishing returns" idea more and more. I'm going to test it tonight; they just happen to be at a TL12 world with a TL4 world next door.

 

[Supplement Four]

My only problem is the large impact tech level has on the value of trades. And, that if they find a pair of planets with a large TL difference, they might give up "Travelling" for $.

You can control this with making the item rare and hard to find, or by using competition.

If the players see there is money to be made for Zibberwhacks, the players still have to find some Zibberwhacks to be able to transport.

Can they find enough Zibberwhacks to fill the hold--enough to make the journey worth it?

And, you can turn the quest for Zibberwhacks into a pull for adventure.





If the players find that the crew of the Monastery just left planet with the last load of Zibberwhacks, then they missed the opportunity.

At another city on the same world, they find that that crew of the Monastery beat them to this location, too.

In fact, the Monastery captain bought up all the Zibberwhacks on the world.

The PCs then find another "deal" where money is to be had on another world...and they find, again, that the damn Monastery has beaten to this world, too.

Damn that Monastery and her crew! Damn them to hell!

Then, at the next stop, the PC run into the crew of the Monastery at a starport bar....



Or, the PCs decide to intercept the Monastery, steal the Zibberwhacks from her hold--wait! All of a sudden, the PCs are pirates!


Or...the PCs finally get their hands on an entire hold full of Zibberwhacks, and, enroute, some Vargr Corsairs strike....


Or.....the PCs, with a hold full of Zibberwhacks, finally get to their destination world....just behind the Monastery, who unloaded her cargo and flooded the market. The price has dropped drastically. In fact, the PCs aren't making a profit. It has cost them to bring this cargo....

 

[Daddicus]

Well, it turns out they weren't interested at all in exploiting things (even though they discussed it). They are merely using this aspect of trade as a way to maximize profits, by choosing planets to buy from that have high tech levels, and places to sell with low TL.

They agreed that it was exploitable, but didn't seem at all interested in doing it. So, while I did implement my rule, they didn't encounter it at all.

 

[simonh]

I think one way to mitigate problems like this might be to factor in the distance between origin and destination of goods. The idea being that for nearby systems there will be more competition and the goods will be more familiar and available at the destination system.

The problem is that it complicates tracking the cargo manifest, but you could just add origin to the cargo description.

Simon Hibbs