Threshold and deadzone

[corumeach]

I am familiar with the old/basic stutterwarp rules and concepts, also I found a lot of different interpretations all over the net.

My current question (among many others) is about Threshold. It seems that everyone uses these concept as "fix drop frontier" just as if every system had an invisible sphere, size depending on it's star's mass, that suddenly affects stutterwarp drive efficiency when entered.

As far as I understand physics, no such sphere with a clear cut border could exit. If the efficiency effect is related to the star's mass, then it has to be linear (distance to mass) and not an absolute value that draws a red line somewhere in space where efficiency makes a sudden an huge drop. The efficiency should decrease in a linear way while approaching the star. So a ship doing 100m jumps would experience a slight reduction in efficiency on every next jump even outside the Threshold (going against zero eventually) and the Threshold would be an "almost Deadzone" towards the star.

Calculating with such a linear efficiency would be impossible without computer assistance (which ships ingame most likely have). For gaming purposes we can't handle linear efficiency. Is that the reason why two fixed efficiency drops are being used?

Or is there some (probably weird) explanation and the Threshold frontier actually does exist within the game universe's reality? This would be against the hard scifi feel of the game, wouldn't it? It feels like "a game mechanism creates a magic law/effect in the game universe". Or maybe not, to us gravitation is also pretty much like magic in some regards. Hm...

Please help me out, if I am totally mistaken here. I don't want to make the game more complicated, but I would love to have a nice explanation of the Threshold from the ingame point of view. Something better than: it's a mystery.

Btw, how does that fit to the concept that gravitation actually is not tied to distance? Gravitational force is the same over any distance. It seems gravitation is not what affects drive efficiency. Mass? Doesn't make the efficiency drop any clearer. I guess it is unknown, as is the exact nature of gravitation.

 

[McPerth]

First of all, seeing that's your first post, welcome to the board.

This said, while I see your point, 2300 rules specify quite clearly that the warp efficiency degradation is not progressive, but it has two clear (and quite hard) thresholds at 0.1 G (where it's nearly useless) and 0.0001 G (FTL limit).

Of course this may just be a game mechanism or simplification to limit stuttrewarp, both, forcing the ships to have other drives to land and limiting its speed in systems to allow for combat.

Also remember, as you already point, that little is really know (AFAIK at least, I'm not physician) about how exactly gravity works, and less so when 2300 was firs designed, 30 years ago.

And there exist (again AFAIK) some such tresholds in nature, with little gray zones (e.g. fusion temperature for most materials, whree under it they are solid, above it they are liquid, and very small to no gray zone exists).

 

[whulorigan]

If the efficiency effect is related to the star's mass, then it has to be linear (distance to mass) . . . The efficiency should decrease in a linear way while approaching the star . . .

I assume you mean that it drops off as the inverse of the square of the distance (which is not linear, though it is continuous or smooth - which I believe is what you meant?). Linear would be if it dropped of as a simple inverse-relation (no square).

Please help me out, if I am totally mistaken here. I don't want to make the game more complicated, but I would love to have a nice explanation of the Threshold from the ingame point of view. Something better than: it's a mystery.

I would guess that the threshold has something to do with the fact that the Stutterwarp is somehow related to quantum-mechanical effects manifested on a macroscopic scale, presumably as a spin-off due to some future theory of quantum-gravity (which right now gives high-energy physicists a lot of headaches because Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity cannot be reconciled to one another based on our current understanding).

The Jerome effect was described as having been first discovered when scientists got a hydrogen atom to "jump" (like in quantum-tunneling) over a macroscopic distance while experimenting in a gravitationally unstressed environment. I would guess that the "all-or-nothing" threshold is somehow related to such quantum effects. You might house-rule that there is a degree of uncertainty (to be determined by random die roll) when one approaches the threshold region as to when the drop-off actually precipitates.

Btw, how does that fit to the concept that gravitation actually is not tied to distance? Gravitational force is the same over any distance. It seems gravitation is not what affects drive efficiency. Mass? Doesn't make the efficiency drop any clearer. I guess it is unknown, as is the exact nature of gravitation.

I am not sure I understand this question. Gravitation is tied to distance. The Gravitational Force drops off as the inverse of the square of the distance between the two objects. Gravitation operates over any distance, but that is different from saying that is the same over any distance (it decreases with distance out to infinity).

 

[aramis]

I consider it a game artifact to prevent several things:

1) in system travel taking less time than the launch or landing.
2) having to have FTL commo and weapons
3) ripping parts of worlds out with stutterwarp†
4) making players do straightforward but significant math in play


-=-=-=-=-=-
† If a stutterwarp causes everything within its field‡ to "tunnel" some distance, even if that distance is mere millimeters more than gravity between pulses will induce, then the stutterwarp can be used to pull large chunks with it. Which means it becomes a clean weapon of mass destruction.
-=-=-=-=-=-
‡ Note that the stutterwarp is already a violation of the inverse square effect law, otherwise it's operation would deform ships considerably over time. It also has an inherent boundary caused by a field strength threshold.

Which posits as prerequisite a new branch of physics - quantified effect fields. Everything with the field strength of X or more is affected equally, while everything within a field strength of <X is unaffected.

 

[corumeach]

Thanks for the nice replies so far.

Yes, linear was the wrong term, I meant something like a continuous effect instead of a sudden drop. Alright, so the drop is a game rule and it seems like the game designers wanted it to be a "real world fact" within the gaming universe, too. Although this is not made absolutely clear in the rule books/background, or I didn't find it.

Oh yes you are correct about gravitation whulorigan, my bad. So gravitation causes the deadzone and the threshold and it is not possible to start/land with stutterwarp, respectively get close to large bodies of mass. A space station or another large ship passing by very closely would affect the stutterwarp efficiency (slightly), too?

I have not yet decided how I want to handle it. Actually the idea of disallowing stutterwarp ships any docking/landing is quite intriguing. It's pertty much like the seagoing vessels of the 15th to 17th century, they require transfer boats to allow crew and cargo being shipped to space stations or planets. Interstellar ships would then stop somewhere far away from a planet and landing ships/boats would be required. If I allow them to dock at space stations, I will defnitely require them to have chemical drives aboard for this. Landing on planets surfaces, or takeoff, would still not be possible for those larger ships.

How would you handle "overlapping Thresholds"? Like the Threshold of a large planet lying inside the Threshold of it's star? It's not neglectible, ist it? Systems like that would be possible, right? How do you calculate Threshold for small bodies, like space stations? Some of them could be rather big, they would still have much less mass than a small moon, but still have a Threshold of their own. Even if their "tiny" mass affects efficiency only barely, it could become a problem at very short distances. Ships could sort of use this as an attack maneouvre or for blockade. Or is it better to impose something else (like Flight Control denies stutterwarp within x AU of a space station, planet, moon for safety reasons).

I already ruled out FTL combat totally for me. This is absolutely not necessary and contradicts the hard scifi feel. This belongs into Tranformers like games, in my opinion. Calculating target positions for targets that move 365x SOL is impossible with given technology. This would require something like fortune telling. Unless there are quantum computers that stutterwarp operations, too...

 

[McPerth]

I have not yet decided how I want to handle it. Actually the idea of disallowing stutterwarp ships any docking/landing is quite intriguing. It's pertty much like the seagoing vessels of the 15th to 17th century, they require transfer boats to allow crew and cargo being shipped to space stations or planets. Interstellar ships would then stop somewhere far away from a planet and landing ships/boats would be required. If I allow them to dock at space stations, I will defnitely require them to have chemical drives aboard for this. Landing on planets surfaces, or takeoff, would still not be possible for those larger ships.

Or tugs used to help them docking, as some large ships dock today in seagoing ports. Of course this will only be available in well developed space stations (so well developed colonies), while in the rest of them those transfer craft would be necessary, but as I understand it, that's quite coherent with 2300 AD setting.

How would you handle "overlapping Thresholds"? Like the Threshold of a large planet lying inside the Threshold of it's star? It's not neglectible, ist it? Systems like that would be possible, right? How do you calculate Threshold for small bodies, like space stations? Some of them could be rather big, they would still have much less mass than a small moon, but still have a Threshold of their own. Even if their "tiny" mass affects efficiency only barely, it could become a problem at very short distances. Ships could sort of use this as an attack maneouvre or for blockade. Or is it better to impose something else (like Flight Control denies stutterwarp within x AU of a space station, planet, moon for safety reasons).

Overlaping gravity wells...

If they are additive, I guess using the larger one will suffice, as the smaller has probably too little influence (e.g. a aship is approaching earth while having the moon in its way. I guess moon's gravity will have little relative influence).

Contradictory (even mutually canceling) gravities: I'm not sure if FTL could be used in those points (e.g. L1, where Earth's and Moon's gravities cancel each other), I guess it will depend on if the efficiency loss is due to gravity effects (canceled at those points) or the same gravity presence (graviton presence, so to say, should they really exist, as there is gravity in those points, even if cancelled), but I guess those zones are small enough to be forfeited for game pourposes (and probably already occupied by space stations in developed colonies).

I already ruled out FTL combat totally for me. This is absolutely not necessary and contradicts the hard scifi feel. This belongs into Tranformers like games, in my opinion. Calculating target positions for targets that move 365x SOL is impossible with given technology. This would require something like fortune telling. Unless there are quantum computers that stutterwarp operations, too...

Aside from the difficulty to locate/pinpoint your target, combat is quite difficult when the target can outrun the beam sent to damage it. Any ship trying to avoid combat must just flee and beams fired to it will never catch it, while you cannot fire your lasers directly forward, as you will catch (and be damaged by) them.

 

[corumeach]

Absolutely agree McPerth.

Tugs are a great idea, I guess well established trade routes will use them as a standard. Explorer ships and military ships will have their own commuter craft.

Overlapping gravity wells. That's what I expected Neglect the minor one. In the end no one wants to do 15 minutes of complex math just to find out that the docking process (or discharge orbit approach) takes 18.5 minutes instead of 15.

One thing that just came to my mind while driving to the mall today... passive sensors that can take up signature of a stutterwarping ship might exist. But the information has to be processed to calculate targeting trajectories, lock targets and so on. Unless 2300AD features quantum computers that work at n-SOL speed as well, a ship jumping at 365xSOL cannot be tracked, targeted or attacked at all, as the computing speed of normal electronic circuits work at around the speed of light maximum (electromagnetic wave in vacuum moves at the speed of light)? Onboard combat computers would be way to slow to calculate any sort of attack or defense when it comes to speeds above speed of light. How can navigation computers calculate a route on the fly when the ship actually makes jumps much much faster than the speed of light? The route would have to be precalculated, no instant changes can be made in between unless there is sufficient time to precalculate them, too.

 

[shaunhilburn]

As far as I understand physics, no such sphere with a clear cut border could ...

Think of it like the event horizon of a black hole - a transition surface that is sharp and well-defined.

 

[shaunhilburn]

Unless 2300AD features quantum computers that work at n-SOL speed as well, a ship jumping at 365xSOL cannot be tracked, targeted or attacked at all, as the computing speed of normal electronic circuits work at around the speed of light maximum (electromagnetic wave in vacuum moves at the speed of light)?.

Correct. All detection and combat takes place within the STL sphere of some planetary body or star. Indeed, all interaction between vessels (unless very carefully coordinated) must take place there.

 

[corumeach]

Correct. All detection and combat takes place within the STL sphere of some planetary body or star. Indeed, all interaction between vessels (unless very carefully coordinated) must take place there.

perfect