Time Dilation and the Jump Drive

[Supplement Four]

So, in your opinion does Traveller just ignore time dilation when FTL is used?

Or, is it an aspect of jumpspace?




My take right now (although it'll probably change if this topic goes anywhere...I know how convincing all of you can be): J-Space is not understood. This can be likened to the early sailor on earth. They didn't know why the wind blew. They just knew if they held up a sheet with a pole, they could harnes the power of the wind to blow their boats.

I imagine Traveller J-Space physics to be something similar. They understand a great deal about J-Space and the jumpdrive, but they certainly don't understand all of it. There's a huge piece of the puzzle missing. Like why Einstein's theories are broken.

And, as it is in the real world, time in J-Space is variable--it's just that it's much more variable in J-Space.

Heck, maybe the fact that one jumps parsec, or if one jumps six parsecs, and both trips take a week, then that's a function of time dilation.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Icosahedron]

Traveller ignores Relativity in its entirety, not just the time-dilation aspect; the relativity of simultaneity is compromised and frames of reference are not used.

Traveller is a non-relativistic universe within an Absolute Time frame. Get used to it!

Remember, back in 77 Traveller was published as a fun game to while away a few hours. Nobody guessed that thirty years on it would have a cult of followers who attempt to divine the true future of humankind's evolution to the stars from its hallowed pages.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yeah, but ya gotta handwave, baby, handwave. Handwave like you're sittin' in an open-topped limo in a parade.

In Star Wars, Han Solo spoke about making the Kessel Run in less than four parsecs. Obviously, Lucas thought a parsec was a measure of time. But, today, that statement's been retro-actively handwaved so that the Kessel Run is a navigational problem rather than a speed/piloting problem. Making the Kessel Run in less than four parsecs is a feat because the Falcon is the ship that made it across such a short distance. "She's fast enough for you old man."

Same thing with CT computers. They were obviously meant to be big honking single computers. But, it's very easy to think of them as the ship's computer network. Even jump cassettes, I think of as the literal French term "small box" so that the jump coordintates that are wirelessly sent to the ship when you buy them from the starport are flash delivered in a parcel--a "jump cassette" of information.

We can specualte about the nature of jumpspace and actually come up with a logical reason why it exists and ignores Relativity the way it does.

Just gotta use our noggins.

 

[Icosahedron]

Hmm, smacks of angels and pinheads to me - like how many Cs in Vacc suit. We know what it is and what it does, who cares how you spell it?

But if you insist;

How about Relativity is a special case of the Grand Unified Theory, and the GUT allows for, indeed requires, a Universal Time Frame and also demonstrates the existence of Jump-Space.
All relativistic effects can be ignored, since interplanetary travel doesn't go fast enough to incur them, and interstellar travel sidesteps them via the use of Jump-Space.

Yeah, the Navigators know how it works (empirically), but it doesn't enter the game because even the geekiest of them won't discuss it in the crew mess for fear of being pelted with pseudo-spud by the rest of the guys.

 

[Straybow]

"Jump = one week" was a simple solution to the question of how long it takes to get there. Absolutely no thought was put into the consequences.

They could've come back to the question in a later LBB, or MT. They could have crafted a solution that tended to put your jump time near a week.

One answer is that moving through J-space has a curvature that depends on your J number and the N-space distance. A J2 engine can curve J-space more than the J1 engine, but only if it has a longer distance to work with.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
So, in your opinion does Traveller just ignore time dilation when FTL is used?

It's not FTL so there's no worry about time dilation or such. Jumpspace is another dimension (several actually) totally seperate from our normal 4 dimensions.

Time dilation can be ignored in most cases as insignificantly negligible just as it is in the real world. Can't it?

And how is relativity of simultaneity even an issue? Not looking to pick a fight, just wondering what the issue is?

But don't get me started on His Holiness of the Retcon George Lucas

And let's leave the flame-bait (cough/com sneeze/puters) to one per topic

"What happens in Jumpspace, stays in Jumpspace."

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Straybow:
They could have crafted a solution that tended to put your jump time near a week.

Like the Jump-formula I devised?

T = cube root(D+c^2) (SI units)

Doesn't mean anything, but it works and it looks good - or I think so, anyway.

With this, Jump time ranges from a minimum of about 5.2 days for same-hex jumps to 8 days for J8.

(IMTU I kicked out the J6 limit, since LBB5 sets a constructional limit at J8 anyway, so I didn't see the point).

If you're into ultra-tech, the formula will take you anywhere in the universe within a human lifetime.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Straybow:
"Jump = one week" was a simple solution to the question of how long it takes to get there. Absolutely no thought was put into the consequences.

You may not agree with his analysis of FTL travel, but Marc Miller does appear to have given some thought to the matter:

FROM JTAS #24, pg 34, “JUMPSPACE” by Marc Miller:
“The basic concept of jump space is that of an alternate space. Theoretically, jump spaces are alternate universes, each only dimly understood from the standpoint of our own universe. Within space, different physical laws apply, making energy costs for reactions and activity different and imposing a different scale on size and distance.”

"Jump takes 168 hours (+/- 10%) to complete. This time is related to the nature of the alternate space being travelled in, and to the energy applied. Where time is a variable in travel in normal space, energy consumption is a variable in alternate space; time is a constant. Consequently, distance depends on the energy applied."

 

[Straybow]

And how many years after LBB1-3 was JTAS #24??

 

[aramis]

Note that later editions (to wit, MT and TNE) each allow for relativity errors in jump, to wit, a mishap resulting in time dilation (to either direction, that is, more or less time experienced than taken), and in time in jump varying from the external reference of 168 hours ±10%. IIRC, 1d6+3 days for certain misjumps.

 

[Kharum1]

So this brings into play M-theory?

 

[Space Cadet]

What sort of alternate universe would Jump Space be?
What if it was a universe where the speed of light was 600 parsecs per week? that would mean that a jump-6 drive would have to obtain 1% of the speed of light in that universe.

Jump Universe
Speed of light = 5.1574 * 10^19 meters/sec^2
A Jump-6 drive would travel at 1% of that speed in Jump Space.

Every point in jump space is coterminus with every point in normal space.

Now if Jump space was just another universe just like our own but with the one exception that the speed of light is the above value, what would that mean?

We know of the famous equation : E = mc^2

c^2 in this case is 2.6599 * 10^35 meters^2/sec^2, that is a huge number.

I wonder what it would mean for nuclear reactions. Would the nuclear reaction in the ship's fusion reactor blow the ship up as the reaction chamber couldn't contain the energy?

 

[Space Cadet]

Another possibility is that time flows faster in jump space than in normal. covering 19.56 light years in 1 week as experienced in the normal universe but lets say 1,956 years as experienced in Jump space, this requires the Jump ship to travel at 1% of the speed of light through jump space at take 1,956 years to get to the point it wants before jumping back into normal space. Maybe a time dilation field surrounds the ship making the occupants experience time as in normal space. There could be planets and stars in Jump space, and for each second that passes in normal space 101,712 seconds pass in jumpspace, if the jump field were to falter, then the ship would emerge in jump space with time passing onboard the ship just as quickly as the rest of the Jump Universe, this universe is likely to be far older than the normal universe. If both universes started at the same time, the jump Universe would then be 1.53 * 10^15 years old. I think it would be a very dark place!

 

[Supplement Four]

Far Trader Dan basically recounts the SOM's version of jumpspace, which, in turn, put a little more meat on Marc's jumpspace article. Neither contradict the other.

The SOM speaks to the big bang, and how the universe is still expanding. There are different "levels" of space, dimensions, if you will, that are contemporaneous with what we know as normal space.

Each time a ship jumps, it enters a new level or dimension. Traveller tech only allows for entry into the first six levels (thus, J-6 is the max jump drive), but Traveller scientists actually know of more jump levels. Up to 32 of them exist. And, these are accessed when jump malfunctions occur.

So, the J-6 limit is theoretically not a limit, but Traveller ships are limited to that number based on current tech. It is posited that the Ancients could access other jump levels.

As an example, picture a set of metal rings, one set inside the other, almost like the layers of an onion.

Normal space is the smallest ring. It takes one week to travel it's complete circumfrence.

When a ship jumps, it jumps to a new metal ring. Time is constant, so the ship still makes a revolution in one week--it just travels a lot faster to make it around the larger ring.

Now, cut the rings and lay them out in a line, like a piece of rope. A ship travels down each spread out line in one week. But, the distance covered is variable.




On a "reality" note, there is some basis for this in real life theory. The big bang, different "dimensions" of space, and this type of thing is actually discussed among Stephen Hawking types. I'm no expert (and, actually, I don't know much about it), but an internet search may turn up more info on the real-life theories.

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by Icosahedron:
Remember, back in 77 Traveller was published as a fun game to while away a few hours. Nobody guessed that thirty years on it would have a cult of followers who attempt to divine the true future of humankind's evolution to the stars from its hallowed pages.

Amen, Brother!

 

[DNA]

my house rule

This is my house rule on "Jump Speed Tweaks"

and sorry if my table does not line up quite right.

Goal: a scale-able jump travel time that is simple and easy to use.

Basic Complaint with Travellers jump drive travel time is that it is not easily scale-able.
Logically a jump 2 drive ship has to move a ship twice as fast to arrive 2 parsecs away in the same time as a jump 1 ship traveling only 1 parsec, but a jump 2 ship traveling only 1 parsec still takes the same week. Note: that a jump 2 ship only burns jump 1 of fuel when traveling 1 parsec.

I like simple math. So my first tweak is to define week to be 7.5 days. This makes the jump time 180 hrs and that is divisible without fractions by 1 though 6. That automatically increases jump time by .5 days or 12 hrs, but I think it is worth it for the sake of simple math.

Ok units:

Jump fuel units = amount of fuel used to travel 1 parsec (normally 10% of the Dtons of ship)
Jump Drive number = the max parsecs traveled and rate of fuel burn for a ship.
Parsecs = distance traveled in a jump 1 (for game play)
Hours = hours

Solution :

General formula it would be P/N*H = T where P is parsecs traveled, N is jump fuel units used, H is 180 Hrs, and T is time in hrs.

Jump fuel units used cannot exceed Jump Drive number.
Jump fuel units used cannot be lower than 1.

The idea is that if you attempt to make a jump 2 with a ship and exit early say 1 parsec instead of 2 that you would get there twice as fast (example P=1, N=2 à 1/2*H =90)
Note: this does not allow a jump 1 ship to use ½ fuel rate burn to go 2 parsecs. The speed up effect is achieved by exiting jump early, not by actually changing the amount of fuel used. Put another way you are making a jump 2 but not using the full potental of the jump 2 and exiting after only 1 parsec of travel there by getting there in ½ time but energy used (fuel used) is the same as a jump 2.

Effects for game play.

Using above formula P/N*H=T you can travel faster than the standard 1 week in jump.
Example: A Jump 6 ship would have the following travel times if it used 6 jump units of fuel for its jump 1 parsec = 30 Hrs, 2 parsecs = 60 hrs, 3 parsecs = 90, 4 parsecs = 120 hrs, 5 parsecs = 150 hrs and 6 parsecs in 180 hrs.
Since plotting an aborted jump course is more difficult use a –1 DM for navigation skill check (or one difficulty increase for a task based system).
Example Travel times: parsecs vs. Jump Fuel units used (note: must have jump drive number equal or grater than number of jump fuel units used)

Parsecs	1 Unit  2 Units  3 Units  4 Units  5 Units  6 Units
1       180 hrs  90 hrs   60 hrs   45 hrs   36 hrs   30 hrs
2       -       180 hrs  120 hrs   90 hrs   72 hrs   60 hrs
3       -       -        180 hrs  135 hrs  108 hrs   90 hrs
4       -       -        -        180 hrs  144 hrs  120 hrs
5       -       -        -        -        180 hrs  150 hrs
6       -       -        -        -        -        180 hrs

COST: Update to existing system is 10% of remaining value of the system.
To add to a new system is only 1% increases of system cost.

NEWS FLASH!!!!

R&D shipyards have had a MAJOR BREAK THOUGH!

New jump Program allows you to abort jump travel safely after a number of hrs has gone by. * Why the hype? Well that means you can plot a jump 2 or longer course past a system that you want to stop in and exit after X hrs and arrive in the system faster than the standard jump week!!!! Further more it only requires one simple software update to your existing jump drive and navigation computer systems to take advantage of this newest understanding of Jump Space Physics.

* The safety clam is based on 0 ship losses from R&D ship yards. But we do have expert navigators on board all test ships. Plotting jump courses that can be aborted to put you in a different system can be difficult.

Note: all attempts to go farther with less fuel used have resulted in 100% ship loss. I.e. a jump 1 ship going 2 parsecs in 240 hrs failed miserably!

 

[DNA]

let me have it

so what do you think?


DNA

 

[BlackBat242]

Sounds familiar somehow...


So how's Dencai getting along? :frankie:

 

[Daneel Olivaw]

In Star Wars, Han Solo spoke about making the Kessel Run in less than four parsecs.

Twelve, actually. :file_23:

 

[Merxiless]

Well, to me it seems like:

One week in jump regardless of jump distance.

So to me, the ship is in realspace, turns on the drive.
The computer follows the course feeding to the drives, while in jump.
The process takes a week, regardless of jump number.

I don't really see a problem with that. Of course, to each his own.

I always thought that if you went the other way, ie.e j-6 drive means you can jump 1 parsec in 1.166666666666 days, then all merchies would be honking huge vessels speeding around everywhere in a day, beating out the smaller guys who carried considerably less cargo, that had to make more trips, over longer time. Ditto for scoutships, since moving faster means finding faster.

I guess it's just Traveller's Travel Rules. Star trek uses warp, Star wars uses hyperspace, etc.

Just never had a problem with it, as far as Traveller as a setting goes..