TNE FF&S Nuclear Warheads

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

How do you calculate the mass of a nuclear warhead in TNE?

CT Striker indicates that nuclear warheads have the same mass as that of a HE warhead of a given diameter. The table in Striker Book 3, page 30, after converting from cm to m appears to be the same table found on TNE FF&S page 143.

Would TNE use the same arrangement that CT Striker Book 3 uses to determine the mass of a nuclear warhead?

 

[whartung]

Hello all,

How do you calculate the mass of a nuclear warhead in TNE?

CT Striker indicates that nuclear warheads have the same mass as that of a HE warhead of a given diameter. The table in Striker Book 3, page 30, after converting from cm to m appears to be the same table found on TNE FF&S page 143.

Would TNE use the same arrangement that CT Striker Book 3 uses to determine the mass of a nuclear warhead?

Masses for warheads are on page 141 and based upon the diameter of the warhead. In the nuclear warhead table, you have the minimum diameters for the different yields of warheads. There's no note that nuclear warheads have any different mass than normal warhead for the size. (For example, KEAP is singled out as being twice as massive as a normal warhead.)

 

[snrdg082102]

Masses for warheads are on page 141 and based upon the diameter of the warhead. In the nuclear warhead table, you have the minimum diameters for the different yields of warheads. There's no note that nuclear warheads have any different mass than normal warhead for the size. (For example, KEAP is singled out as being twice as massive as a normal warhead.)

Morning whartung,

Thanks for the reply and confirming that CT and TNE nuclear warheads use the same mass as a standard HE warhead.

 

[Timerover51]

Masses for warheads are on page 141 and based upon the diameter of the warhead. In the nuclear warhead table, you have the minimum diameters for the different yields of warheads. There's no note that nuclear warheads have any different mass than normal warhead for the size. (For example, KEAP is singled out as being twice as massive as a normal warhead.)

Hmm, just looked at this thread as it mentions nuclear weapons. So a KEAP warhead is TWICE as heavy as a normal warhead. Have to look at if the KEAP warhead is used in either Tech Level 6 or 7 military, as that would be about where we are now. In the Real World, a hypervelocity KEAP round is considerably lower in weight that the corresponding HE round.

About the only case of a KEAP round being significantly heavier than an HE round that I am aware of is the WW2 US Navy's heavyweight AP rounds for the 12 inch guns on the Alaska-class cruisers, and the 16 inch guns on the North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa-class ships. The 12 inch High Capacity round weighed 940 pounds, the AP round 1140. The 16 inch High Capacity round weighed 1900 pounds, while the AP round weight 2700 pounds. That is considerably less than double the weight. The barrel wear for the High Capacity round was about 0.17 of the wear of the AP round.

If you think about it, a round that is twice the weight of a normal round is going to put an enormous strain on the barrel when the propellant charge is ignited, as well as having considerably less velocity if the barrel handles the pressure. A given weight of powder delivers a given amount of energy to the projectile, so based on E = 0.5M X V Squared, heavier mass means lower velocity.

Unless, of course, you are using the handwavium physics that often is claimed for the Traveller Universe.

If one of the moderators wants to turn this into a new thread, feel free, as it does not directly address nuclear warheads.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello timerover51,

First thank you for the reply and the help you have provided me in the past.

I beg your pardon this thread was started because I was unsure of how to figure out the mass and volume of a TNE Nuclear Warhead which is on TNE FF&S 143.

Checking in the Consolidated TNE Errata didn't help and since I've been working through CT Striker Book 3 I checked decided to look there. CT Book 3 appears to have the same table, page 40, as in TNE FF&S page 143. The difference is TNE uses meters and CT Striker uses cm.

Since the two books are similar CT: Striker Book 3 page 40 would states: Weight: A nuclear round weighs the same as an HE round for the weapon.

I'm still unsure, and whartung provided some help answering on how do you calculate the mass/weight of a TNE FF&S nuclear warhead.

This means my nuclear warheads have mass and volume equal to an HE round. That is of course until someone, preferably the powers that be, provide a different method.

Hmm, just looked at this thread as it mentions nuclear weapons. So a KEAP warhead is TWICE as heavy as a normal warhead. Have to look at if the KEAP warhead is used in either Tech Level 6 or 7 military, as that would be about where we are now. In the Real World, a hypervelocity KEAP round is considerably lower in weight that the corresponding HE round.

About the only case of a KEAP round being significantly heavier than an HE round that I am aware of is the WW2 US Navy's heavyweight AP rounds for the 12 inch guns on the Alaska-class cruisers, and the 16 inch guns on the North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa-class ships. The 12 inch High Capacity round weighed 940 pounds, the AP round 1140. The 16 inch High Capacity round weighed 1900 pounds, while the AP round weight 2700 pounds. That is considerably less than double the weight. The barrel wear for the High Capacity round was about 0.17 of the wear of the AP round.

If you think about it, a round that is twice the weight of a normal round is going to put an enormous strain on the barrel when the propellant charge is ignited, as well as having considerably less velocity if the barrel handles the pressure. A given weight of powder delivers a given amount of energy to the projectile, so based on E = 0.5M X V Squared, heavier mass means lower velocity.

Unless, of course, you are using the handwavium physics that often is claimed for the Traveller Universe.

If one of the moderators wants to turn this into a new thread, feel free, as it does not directly address nuclear warheads.

 

[Timerover51]

Hello timerover51,

First thank you for the reply and the help you have provided me in the past.

I beg your pardon this thread was started because I was unsure of how to figure out the mass and volume of a TNE Nuclear Warhead which is on TNE FF&S 143.

Checking in the Consolidated TNE Errata didn't help and since I've been working through CT Striker Book 3 I checked decided to look there. CT Book 3 appears to have the same table, page 40, as in TNE FF&S page 143. The difference is TNE uses meters and CT Striker uses cm.

Since the two books are similar CT: Striker Book 3 page 40 would states: Weight: A nuclear round weighs the same as an HE round for the weapon.

I'm still unsure, and whartung provided some help answering on how do you calculate the mass/weight of a TNE FF&S nuclear warhead.

This means my nuclear warheads have mass and volume equal to an HE round. That is of course until someone, preferably the powers that be, provide a different method.

That does correspond to the real world for the most part. The main reason for the correspondence has to do with the ballistics of the nuclear round matching, or at least coming close to matching, the ballistics of the standard HE round. As typically a nuclear round is set for air burst, by matching the ballistics with the standard HE round, you avoid having the requirement to fire one or more ranging rounds for the nuclear shot.

You can always ask the moderators to delete the post. Or do you want me to delete it? I was responding to something in one of the comments to the post.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello timerover51,

Unfortunately, I hadn't thought about the ballastics, Real World or Traveller Universe, since my focus is the mass of Special Warheads 6. Nuclear and 7. Collapsing Nuclear Warheads.

The process in TNE FF&S Chapter 9 Special Warheads 6 does not state how to generate the mass of a nuclear warhead on page 143.

Chapter 9 Warheads Step G. Mass page 141 also doesn't provide, at least to me, any information on determinng the mass of a nuclear warhed either.

Staying within the TNE FF&S design system does a nuclear warhead use the Mass Table on TNE FF&S page 141 based on the munitions diameter?

whartung and CT Striker Book 3, the closest design system to TNE FF&S, seem to agree on using the mass/weight based on the munitions diameter taken from the appropriate table for the system

o:Why would I want the moderator, yourself, or anyone, the exception of something I wrote myself, to delete a post?

Again thank you for your comments to my topic posts, even though I may disagree or may miss what the intent of the reply is about. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

That does correspond to the real world for the most part. The main reason for the correspondence has to do with the ballistics of the nuclear round matching, or at least coming close to matching, the ballistics of the standard HE round. As typically a nuclear round is set for air burst, by matching the ballistics with the standard HE round, you avoid having the requirement to fire one or more ranging rounds for the nuclear shot.

You can always ask the moderators to delete the post. Or do you want me to delete it? I was responding to something in one of the comments to the post.

 

[Timerover51]

You can get a nuclear warhead under one hundred pounds if you are using something like an Atomic Demolition Munition, which does not need to be fired from a gun, or as a missile warhead, where the acceleration stresses are much lower. If you are going to fire it from a gun, you have the carrier body weight as well as the warhead weight to deal with, and that pretty much sets the bottom limit.

As I have not taken the time to study any of the design sequences in Striker, MegaTraveller, or later versions, I am not sure what handwavium they might be using. A nuclear device minimum size is dictated by the fissionable material that you are using, either U-235, Pu-239, or at least experimental weapons have been made with U-233, the neutron reflector, tamper material if present, high explosive assembly, and detonation mechanism, which may or may not include coding devices. If you shave weight in all but the last area, you pay for it with increased weight in other areas.

I view a 6 inch/155mm artillery round as the smallest gun that can fire a nuclear weapon, and also would put that as about the smallest diameter for a nuclear device.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Didn't the US military also have a tac-nuke mortar shell? (One very-long range mortar, I hope!)

 

[Timerover51]

Didn't the US military also have a tac-nuke mortar shell? (One very-long range mortar, I hope!)

You might be thinking of the Davy Crockett, which was a recoilless rifled fired round that projected ahead of the firing tube, and looked like a watermelon with fins on it. Aside from being a command and control nightmare, it was a bit suicidal for the crew firing it to actually use. Its range was sufficiently short so that is was essentially a front line weapon. It yield was normally listed at 0.1 kilotons, and it used the same nuclear device as the small US Atomic Demolition Munition. I look at is as an extended range ADM.

 

[aramis]

Didn't the US military also have a tac-nuke mortar shell? (One very-long range mortar, I hope!)

Wikipedia shows several howitzer rounds, no standard mortar rounds.

M28 firing the M388 round David Crockett Recoilless "spigot gun" is essentially a low-angle rocket-mortar in 120mm (4") with 2km range, a 155mm version with the same round is the M29 with a 4km range, and estimated yields of around 0.1kT.

the M110 8" SP Howitzer (203mm) is listed as capable of firing either the W33 or W79 nuclear rounds, depending upon era.

A roommate in 1991-92 had just lost his posting in Artillery Special Munitions... his field manuals listed 1kT for the M79. Wikipedia says 0.8kT, with a 20km delivery range.

The M114 and M198 howitzers in 155mm had a tac nuke shell, the w48... with a wikipedia listed 0.072kT yield...

Wikipedia has a really nice list of publicly known rounds.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello timerover,

You can get a nuclear warhead under one hundred pounds if you are using something like an Atomic Demolition Munition, which does not need to be fired from a gun, or as a missile warhead, where the acceleration stresses are much lower. If you are going to fire it from a gun, you have the carrier body weight as well as the warhead weight to deal with, and that pretty much sets the bottom limit.

As I have not taken the time to study any of the design sequences in Striker, MegaTraveller, or later versions, I am not sure what handwavium they might be using. A nuclear device minimum size is dictated by the fissionable material that you are using, either U-235, Pu-239, or at least experimental weapons have been made with U-233, the neutron reflector, tamper material if present, high explosive assembly, and detonation mechanism, which may or may not include coding devices. If you shave weight in all but the last area, you pay for it with increased weight in other areas.

I view a 6 inch/155mm artillery round as the smallest gun that can fire a nuclear weapon, and also would put that as about the smallest diameter for a nuclear device.

TNE FF&S determines mass based on warhead diameter in cm. Per page 141: G. Mass: "The table below lists the mass of most warheads." After the table are the exception that modify the table values:

1. KEAP
2. Special Rounds: Hand grenades, low-velocity propelled grenades, medium-velocity propelled grenades, rockets, missiles, light recoilles rifle, rifle grenades, high-velocity propelled grenades, RAM grenades, heavy recoilless rifle, and mortar.

Prior to my post I wasn't sure if the mass associated with a 17 cm warhead was the correct one to use, which is how my search ended up looking at CT Striker Book 3. CT Striker Book 3 states that a nuclear warhead uses the same criteria as a HE round.

Since a nuclear warhead is not part of the exceptions and the information of CT, referencing the table on page 143 shows at TL 6 the smallest diameter for a nuclear missile is 17 cm.

A 17 cm round has a mass of 72 kg taken from the table on page 141.

Nuclear devices are actually sized by yield with diameter being the last criteria on the list.

Again thanks of the reply, this time I think I got the right meaning.

 

[Timerover51]

Wikipedia shows several howitzer rounds, no standard mortar rounds.

M28 firing the M388 round David Crockett Recoilless "spigot gun" is essentially a low-angle rocket-mortar in 120mm (4") with 2km range, a 155mm version with the same round is the M29 with a 4km range, and estimated yields of around 0.1kT.

the M110 8" SP Howitzer (203mm) is listed as capable of firing either the W33 or W79 nuclear rounds, depending upon era.

A roommate in 1991-92 had just lost his posting in Artillery Special Munitions... his field manuals listed 1kT for the M79. Wikipedia says 0.8kT, with a 20km delivery range.

The M114 and M198 howitzers in 155mm had a tac nuke shell, the w48... with a wikipedia listed 0.072kT yield...

Wikipedia has a really nice list of publicly known rounds.

Nice batch of incorrect data on Wikipedia. I wonder if it is deliberate.

 

[Timerover51]

Hello timerover,



TNE FF&S determines mass based on warhead diameter in cm. Per page 141: G. Mass: "The table below lists the mass of most warheads." After the table are the exception that modify the table values:

1. KEAP
2. Special Rounds: Hand grenades, low-velocity propelled grenades, medium-velocity propelled grenades, rockets, missiles, light recoilles rifle, rifle grenades, high-velocity propelled grenades, RAM grenades, heavy recoilless rifle, and mortar.

Prior to my post I wasn't sure if the mass associated with a 17 cm warhead was the correct one to use, which is how my search ended up looking at CT Striker Book 3. CT Striker Book 3 states that a nuclear warhead uses the same criteria as a HE round.

Since a nuclear warhead is not part of the exceptions and the information of CT, referencing the table on page 143 shows at TL 6 the smallest diameter for a nuclear missile is 17 cm.

A 17 cm round has a mass of 72 kg taken from the table on page 141.

Nuclear devices are actually sized by yield with diameter being the last criteria on the list.

Again thanks of the reply, this time I think I got the right meaning.

Okay, clearly I am horribly incorrect as to anything to do with real world ammunition. If the rules say 17cm and a mass of 72 kilograms is the smallest possible nuclear round, then that is clearly the case, and the US 155mm nuclear round and the Soviet 152mm nuclear round were just figments of the US Army and Soviet armies imaginations, along with the small suitcase-size Atomic Demolition Munition.

 

[aramis]

Nice batch of incorrect data on Wikipedia. I wonder if it is deliberate.

It's well sourced, so, quite probably.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello timerover51,

No, in the real world the munitions used by the USA and the Soviets are real and solid.

Traveller is not the real world and is a figment of the real world's imagination, just like the worlds and universes in the science fiction stories written by Scott G. Gier, David Drake, Heinlein, or any other author of the genre.

Real world weapons design is a very complex operation, the designers simplified the operation to make thing relatively easier.

I am sorry that your real world knowledge of weapon systems makes the use of the Traveller design rules so disagreeable. I would however appreciate comments that help me use the system as is and not as in the real world.

Thanks for the comments and have a good whatever time of day/night at your home site.

Okay, clearly I am horribly incorrect as to anything to do with real world ammunition. If the rules say 17cm and a mass of 72 kilograms is the smallest possible nuclear round, then that is clearly the case, and the US 155mm nuclear round and the Soviet 152mm nuclear round were just figments of the US Army and Soviet armies imaginations, along with the small suitcase-size Atomic Demolition Munition.

 

[Timerover51]

Hello timerover51,

No, in the real world the munitions used by the USA and the Soviets are real and solid.

Traveller is not the real world and is a figment of the real world's imagination, just like the worlds and universes in the science fiction stories written by Scott G. Gier, David Drake, Heinlein, or any other author of the genre.

Real world weapons design is a very complex operation, the designers simplified the operation to make thing relatively easier.

I am sorry that your real world knowledge of weapon systems makes the use of the Traveller design rules so disagreeable. I would however appreciate comments that help me use the system as is and not as in the real world.

Thanks for the comments and have a good whatever time of day/night at your home site.

Okay, I will quit troubling with the difference between the real world and the Traveller Universe. Rules are rules.

 

[whartung]

Since a nuclear warhead is not part of the exceptions and the information of CT, referencing the table on page 143 shows at TL 6 the smallest diameter for a nuclear missile is 17 cm.

Exactly, this is why I cited the pg 141 for the nuclear warheads, they are not listed as an exception. I find the FF&S rules to be reasonably specific and "mean what they say", albeit not as organized perhaps as one would like.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning whartung,

Originally Posted by snrdg082102
Since a nuclear warhead is not part of the exceptions and the information of CT, referencing the table on page 143 shows at TL 6 the smallest diameter for a nuclear missile is 17 cm.

Exactly, this is why I cited the pg 141 for the nuclear warheads, they are not listed as an exception. I find the FF&S rules to be reasonably specific and "mean what they say", albeit not as organized perhaps as one would like.

I think I've mentioned I'm a little slower to catch on than some folks, not to mention need more detailed instructions in some areas.

In CT Striker Book 3 Nuc warheads are specifically identified as using HE guidelines. TNE FF&S Nuc warheads has a table listing that the smallest warhead with yeild x is y diameter.

Thanks for the help, how is the sledge hammer you used on me, need to replace it?

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello timerover51 and all members of the forum,

I have apparently over stepped some boundary of timerover51 with my comments to some of the member's reply posts here. The member has informed me I've been added to the ignore list.

My apologies for any breach of forum etiquette.

Okay, I will quit troubling with the difference between the real world and the Traveller Universe. Rules are rules.

I have no issues on have the real world or real world experiences by other members being brought into discussions showing the difference between the real world and Traveller.

My issue is that no difference was presented other than the suggestion that your real world knowledge was horribly incorrect or that certain nuclear munitions were fictional weapons in the US and Soviet stockpiles.

I also have an issue with comments that cited source material was incorrect without any links to other sources with the correct data.

Giving me numbers or links to sources you feel is creditable would be of more help.

I also have strong opinions on certain rules which don't make sense to me, reflect real world data I know about or jib with my real life experience. I have cited references web based and hard copy material in the support of my comments.

Once again I apologize for over stepping some boundary and that I'm being censored.

Respectfully,