TNE FF&S Nuclear Warheads

[Vladika]

May I make an observation/ recommendation?

Traveller is the "real" universe while we are all playing it. It IS a very different universe than ours, with differing physical properties. This is not a bad thing at all.

The purpose of the Traveller universe is to "level the playing field" for all of us, no matter where we come from. It is obviously oversimplified. It has to be.

If I were to go to Alaska and play a given Traveller game with Aramis we could/should expect that the rules and guidelines given in the various books apply. House rules by agreement and already deciding on just which Traveller books will apply.

For that period on time the Traveller universe, as laid out in the books is the only universe.

That being said, when Traveller sources are not clear or are silent, THEN is the time to use our real world experience and knowledge to fill in any gap in written source.

We should NEVER override the Canon Traveller (unless by mutual agreement in advance, so all parties know what is expected).

It should be fun. It shouldn't be a constant aggravation to all concerned. With the above thoughts in mind I would suggest that it would be fun, playable by all, and INTERNALLY consistent.

It would eliminate munchkins and rules warriors to some extent.

Personally, I'd rather play the game when time allows and not waste precious time on bickering. (This forum, however, is the place to debate rules interpretations, exchange ideas and discuss our own house rules. At times I have to remember to be grateful for that!)

So, let's all play nice and share our toys?

 

[Timerover51]

May I make an observation/ recommendation?

Traveller is the "real" universe while we are all playing it. It IS a very different universe than ours, with differing physical properties. This is not a bad thing at all.

The purpose of the Traveller universe is to "level the playing field" for all of us, no matter where we come from. It is obviously oversimplified. It has to be.

If I were to go to Alaska and play a given Traveller game with Aramis we could/should expect that the rules and guidelines given in the various books apply. House rules by agreement and already deciding on just which Traveller books will apply.

For that period on time the Traveller universe, as laid out in the books is the only universe.

That being said, when Traveller sources are not clear or are silent, THEN is the time to use our real world experience and knowledge to fill in any gap in written source.

We should NEVER override the Canon Traveller (unless by mutual agreement in advance, so all parties know what is expected).

It should be fun. It shouldn't be a constant aggravation to all concerned. With the above thoughts in mind I would suggest that it would be fun, playable by all, and INTERNALLY consistent.

It would eliminate munchkins and rules warriors to some extent.

Personally, I'd rather play the game when time allows and not waste precious time on bickering. (This forum, however, is the place to debate rules interpretations, exchange ideas and discuss our own house rules. At times I have to remember to be grateful for that!)

So, let's all play nice and share our toys?

I have informed snrdg082102 that I will no longer make any posts regarding the difference between the real world and the Traveller rule book. I had this idea that real world data might be useful to compare with the rule book, but clearly, real world data is not desired.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Vladika,

Yep, I agree that there are two realities the in game reality and real world reality.

Comparing them can be useful and I do so frequently. However, I don't indicate that the real world is wrong and the game world is right when somebody cites the game rules. Nor do I state that information provided by another forum member is incorrect without providing sources that I feel are creditable.

Hopefully I am playing nice and after my reply to the post that timerover51 will ignore will drop the subject.

May I make an observation/ recommendation?

Traveller is the "real" universe while we are all playing it. It IS a very different universe than ours, with differing physical properties. This is not a bad thing at all.

The purpose of the Traveller universe is to "level the playing field" for all of us, no matter where we come from. It is obviously oversimplified. It has to be.

If I were to go to Alaska and play a given Traveller game with Aramis we could/should expect that the rules and guidelines given in the various books apply. House rules by agreement and already deciding on just which Traveller books will apply.

For that period on time the Traveller universe, as laid out in the books is the only universe.

That being said, when Traveller sources are not clear or are silent, THEN is the time to use our real world experience and knowledge to fill in any gap in written source.

We should NEVER override the Canon Traveller (unless by mutual agreement in advance, so all parties know what is expected).

It should be fun. It shouldn't be a constant aggravation to all concerned. With the above thoughts in mind I would suggest that it would be fun, playable by all, and INTERNALLY consistent.

It would eliminate munchkins and rules warriors to some extent.

Personally, I'd rather play the game when time allows and not waste precious time on bickering. (This forum, however, is the place to debate rules interpretations, exchange ideas and discuss our own house rules. At times I have to remember to be grateful for that!)

So, let's all play nice and share our toys?

 

[snrdg082102]

I have informed snrdg082102 that I will no longer make any posts regarding the difference between the real world and the Traveller rule book. I had this idea that real world data might be useful to compare with the rule book, but clearly, real world data is not desired.

Timerover51 real world data is desired provided that the comparison helps me with the rules not by saying the in game rules are wrong or the real world is wrong.

Further stating that a source cited by another forum member is incorrect without providing support to the claim doesn't help either.

I provided the in game requirements about the smallest diameter a 0.1 kt TL 6 nuke aerial bomb/artillery shell/warhead can be. What I got back was not a comparison in my opinion just negative comments.

Again my apologies for not agreeing with what you consider to be comparing the Traveller reality and Real World reality.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Because Traveller and the real world both are based on common real world physics I would think that comparisons to real world examples for something like nuclear war heads would be very useful myself.

 

[Antony]

FF&S also states that the table is for TL6 which in this book corresponds to circa 1950s and TL7 circa 1970s, a bit too big a gap if you ask me. But where it switches over is presumable up to the GM circa 1960 perhaps. If so the 17cm warhead becomes 15cm and mass 50kg. Also no reason why you could not set say TL at 6.5 and use a 16cm warhead with a mass of 60kg for the warhead.

 

[Timerover51]

FF&S also states that the table is for TL6 which in this book corresponds to circa 1950s and TL7 circa 1970s, a bit too big a gap if you ask me. But where it switches over is presumable up to the GM circa 1960 perhaps. If so the 17cm warhead becomes 15cm and mass 50kg. Also no reason why you could not set say TL at 6.5 and use a 16cm warhead with a mass of 60kg for the warhead.

Actually, once they started using beryllium as the neutron reflector, the size of the nuclear shell shrank pretty fast. The 280mm Atomic cannon, more accurately a howitzer based on muzzle velocity and range, has a nuclear round tested in 1953 with a live shot that weighed 700 pounds, had a yield of 15 kilotons, and was a gun-type U-235 weapon, one point safe. The U-235 was loaded into the carrier round just before firing. By 1960, the 8 inch and 155mm rounds were both being tested, again requiring the fissionable material to be inserted immediately before firing.

 

[Timerover51]

Hi,

Because Traveller and the real world both are based on common real world physics I would think that comparisons to real world examples for something like nuclear war heads would be very useful myself.

Give me some time to get some of my stuff out, and then you might want to post a new thread in say, My Traveller Universe, on weapon effects and sizes in the real world.

 

[Antony]

You could also rule that on Earth the tech level of nuclear warheads is higher than the normal base as a consequence of WW2 developments. So for example the base TL6 nuclear weapons actually arrived at TL5 and then with the cold war rapidly progressed so that the TL for nukes may be 9 or higher.
I tend to do something similar for computer systems now. Current Earth nomally TL8 computer tech +3 levels to TL11. If we ever got the TL9 Jump drive the ships would have TL12 comp systems, but that would be just IMTU obviously.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello PFVA63,

Hi,

Because Traveller and the real world both are based on common real world physics I would think that comparisons to real world examples for something like nuclear war heads would be very useful myself.

I have never stated that Traveller is not based on real world principles, however they have be modified to fit the story line of the Traveller Universe.

I agree that comparison is great and very useful, however, and I may be wrong, there was no comparison for the information that at TNE FF&S Traveller TL 6 the smallest diameter nuclear warhead is 17 cm with a mass of 72 kg. Of course I added the diameter was based on yield, but did not, my goof, include the yield was for a 0.1 kt weapon.

The response was:

Okay, clearly I am horribly incorrect as to anything to do with real world ammunition. If the rules say 17cm and a mass of 72 kilograms is the smallest possible nuclear round, then that is clearly the case, and the US 155mm nuclear round and the Soviet 152mm nuclear round were just figments of the US Army and Soviet armies imaginations, along with the small suitcase-size Atomic Demolition Munition.

Here is what I consider a comparison.

Traveller TL 6 covers World War II where two atomic/nuclear devices were deployed in the real world.

Little Boy:
Data: Yield 16 kt, diameter: 0.7 m or 70 cm, mass 4,400 kg

TNE FF&S page 143
16 kt falls between 10 and 20 kt on the Nuclear warhead table which indicates that the smallest diameter is between 21 and 22 cm. The Mass Table on page 141 lists the mass between 140 and 160 kg.

Fat Man
Data: Yield 21 kt, diameter: 1.5 m or 150 cm, mass 4,633 kg

TNE FF&S page 143
21 kt falls between 20 and 50 kt on the Nuclear warhead table which indicates that the smallest diameter is between 23 and 24 cm. The Mass Table on page 141 lists the mass between 185 and 215 kg.

My sources included wikipedia.org, nuclearweaponarchive.org, and fas.org.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Anthony,

You could also rule that on Earth the tech level of nuclear warheads is higher than the normal base as a consequence of WW2 developments. So for example the base TL6 nuclear weapons actually arrived at TL5 and then with the cold war rapidly progressed so that the TL for nukes may be 9 or higher.
I tend to do something similar for computer systems now. Current Earth nomally TL8 computer tech +3 levels to TL11. If we ever got the TL9 Jump drive the ships would have TL12 comp systems, but that would be just IMTU obviously.

Another good comment and work around.

Of course you would drive me crazier than I already am when I tried reverse engineering the weapon using the rules.:rofl:

 

[Timerover51]

Wikipedia shows several howitzer rounds, no standard mortar rounds.

M28 firing the M388 round David Crockett Recoilless "spigot gun" is essentially a low-angle rocket-mortar in 120mm (4") with 2km range, a 155mm version with the same round is the M29 with a 4km range, and estimated yields of around 0.1kT.

the M110 8" SP Howitzer (203mm) is listed as capable of firing either the W33 or W79 nuclear rounds, depending upon era.

A roommate in 1991-92 had just lost his posting in Artillery Special Munitions... his field manuals listed 1kT for the M79. Wikipedia says 0.8kT, with a 20km delivery range.

The M114 and M198 howitzers in 155mm had a tac nuke shell, the w48... with a wikipedia listed 0.072kT yield...

Wikipedia has a really nice list of publicly known rounds.

Probably should not have made that previous comment regarding accuracy. If you want to know why, see my signature.