TNE Starship Design Software: ISO...

[kaladorn]

I've just shifted from my perennial favourite (MT pre-rebellion, post-rebellion, or MT Wounded Collosus, or MT with stolen GURPS no-rebellion timeline) into TNE.

One of the problems I have is TNE deckplans. I've noticed there are few.

If I'm going to work on creating some, I'd like an automated software tool to help with the ship design. In an imaginary fantasy world, it would be as easy as Ships for Windows (which has made my MT designs much easier). But I'd even settle for Excel or a web-based tool if it had implemented various errata in the design sequence.

Is there such a beast? Can anyone point me to where I can acquire or use such a TNE ship design tool?

 

[aramis]

TNE's FF&S is so complex, that almost every published design can be found to be wrong. Few understand it well enough to implement it in spreadsheet. And most of them, they don't use a monolithic one. Back when I was using it a lot, I never saw a correct monolithic spreadsheet.

Moreover, I never bothered trying to write one. I always used a sheet just entering data as I needed it.

 

[kaladorn]

yes, but one would have to HAVE one

I'm not expecting perfection. I wasn't even thinking of FF&S - core rules have ship construction rules that would be sufficient.

Ships for Windows took some liberties with the MT ship construction rules, but as long as it was used consistently, then all of your designs would be possessed of a common consistency at least.

But I have no spreadsheet or design tool for TNE ships. That's what I'm looking for!

 

[aramis]

I'm not expecting perfection. I wasn't even thinking of FF&S - core rules have ship construction rules that would be sufficient.

Ships for Windows took some liberties with the MT ship construction rules, but as long as it was used consistently, then all of your designs would be possessed of a common consistency at least.

But I have no spreadsheet or design tool for TNE ships. That's what I'm looking for!

There is no ship design in TNE Core. It's all in FF&S.

 

[Starviking]

TNE's FF&S is so complex, that almost every published design can be found to be wrong. Few understand it well enough to implement it in spreadsheet. And most of them, they don't use a monolithic one. Back when I was using it a lot, I never saw a correct monolithic spreadsheet.

Moreover, I never bothered trying to write one. I always used a sheet just entering data as I needed it.

Antti Lahiten's Spreadsheets were pretty good - and if there were errors they were not major. One I did notice was that grapple carried craft were not included for thrust calculations. That could be hard-fixed by direct input.

If you're interested in the spreadsheets Kaladorn, they can be found on the TNE Yahoo Group - or I can try and hunt them down on my hard drive.

 

[kaladorn]

Just got admitted to the Yahoo Groups

Plan to check them out tonight!

There's things I still can't quite reconcile between versions of the game. Seems to me that any sensor array that can see out past 500K km is pretty big in volume (in fact, even going over 50K gets large). And yet when you read the description of how you survey a system, there sure seems to be a suggestion that multiple sensors with this sort of range are fairly commonplace.

Anyway, I am working my way into this. I'll read FFS if I have to. Lord knows I built vehicles in Striker II and in MT, so this can't be that much more painful....

 

[aramis]

Plan to check them out tonight!

There's things I still can't quite reconcile between versions of the game. Seems to me that any sensor array that can see out past 500K km is pretty big in volume (in fact, even going over 50K gets large). And yet when you read the description of how you survey a system, there sure seems to be a suggestion that multiple sensors with this sort of range are fairly commonplace.

Anyway, I am working my way into this. I'll read FFS if I have to. Lord knows I built vehicles in Striker II and in MT, so this can't be that much more painful....

Striker II has no design sequences. Striker does, but not the Command Decision derivative Striker II... because it uses FF&S as its design system.

 

[kaladorn]

Striker II has no design sequences. Striker does, but not the Command Decision derivative Striker II... because it uses FF&S as its design system.

Must have been the first one (in the small box with the yellow/brown image on it). Lots of painstaking math in that version.

 

[kaladorn]

Antti Lahiten's Spreadsheets were pretty good - and if there were errors they were not major. One I did notice was that grapple carried craft were not included for thrust calculations. That could be hard-fixed by direct input.

I've got a copy of Antti's spreadsheet. For those who might need to know, it only plays nice with Excel versions up to 2003. Excel 2003 and 2007 do not like its module definition in VBA. You have to install an MS Hotfix with a VBA converter and undergo some manual steps (fewer in Excel 2007, more in Excel 2010). And you are out of luck for this converter if you are running a 64 bit Excel.

The spreadsheet seems useful, but I see a few issues. I don't know if it was a VBA conversion issue or what, but I get a couple of #ERROR notes in a few of the cells that appear to be supposed to contain descriptive text on the right hand side. (Just a few, I'm hoping to fix it). Also, I don't see any place to list the TL of weapons you want to load on the vessel (everything else you can specify tech).

It also looks to me (I'm trying to replicate an MT design I made) that the engineering requirement even with heavy automation is sufficient to require a lot more engineers. I'm not sure if this change was intentional or is just the result of the design sequence - you can't replicate MT designs exactly, so I'm going what I can.

I can't figure out exactly how to build the old 'triple turret with 1 laser, 1 sandcaster, and 1 missile launcher'. Is that even still possible?

 

[Starviking]

I've got a copy of Antti's spreadsheet. For those who might need to know, it only plays nice with Excel versions up to 2003. Excel 2003 and 2007 do not like its module definition in VBA. You have to install an MS Hotfix with a VBA converter and undergo some manual steps (fewer in Excel 2007, more in Excel 2010). And you are out of luck for this converter if you are running a 64 bit Excel.

I've an old version of Excel installed that I use to run it.

The spreadsheet seems useful, but I see a few issues. I don't know if it was a VBA conversion issue or what, but I get a couple of #ERROR notes in a few of the cells that appear to be supposed to contain descriptive text on the right hand side. (Just a few, I'm hoping to fix it). Also, I don't see any place to list the TL of weapons you want to load on the vessel (everything else you can specify tech).

I get that too - it must be a consequence of running in a later version of Windows, worked fine in my Win95, get the errors (non-fatal) in XP.

It also looks to me (I'm trying to replicate an MT design I made) that the engineering requirement even with heavy automation is sufficient to require a lot more engineers. I'm not sure if this change was intentional or is just the result of the design sequence - you can't replicate MT designs exactly, so I'm going what I can.

Probably a consequence of FFS - IIRC it was a big break from MT.

I can't figure out exactly how to build the old 'triple turret with 1 laser, 1 sandcaster, and 1 missile launcher'. Is that even still possible?

It could be possible - though you might need to hand-wave a bit. FFS has rules for lasers and missile launchers, and perhaps the sandcasters could be back-engineered. That said - it might not fit in with TNE-style combat to have such a triple turret.

I think there are a few Challenge Articles on the run-up to TNE that detail the ideas behind the change in systems, though the titles and issue numbers escape me at the moment.

 

[kaladorn]

If I can provide an update version of the spreadsheet, I'd kind of like to, but I don't really have the right to post it here without the original authors permission. I would like to try to fix the few (as you say non-fatal) errors.

As to the turrets: If the turret definitions have changes so much, that's going to invalidate a lot of small ship designs from prior versions. I mean, I understand that details of volume, power, etc. may change, but I'd have thought that preserving some canonical common design idioms such as the single, double and triple turret (including possibly heterogeneous mixes of weapons) would have been on the agenda.

TNE still has Screens/Sandcasters. I haven't looked at Brilliant Lances yet (other than when I bought it first), but I'm assuming it must include them. The FFS spreadsheet lets you add them.

I'll have to try to understand what FFS thinks is a legitemate weapons fit for a small ship. I mean, in old traveller, it was a simple '100 dtons = 1 turret' for the smaller vessels. Got muddy with bays and spinals and so on, but for small ships, you knew what you were getting.

 

[Starviking]

If I can provide an update version of the spreadsheet, I'd kind of like to, but I don't really have the right to post it here without the original authors permission. I would like to try to fix the few (as you say non-fatal) errors.

I'd say a "Modified by kaladorn" would do quite well.

As to the turrets: If the turret definitions have changes so much, that's going to invalidate a lot of small ship designs from prior versions. I mean, I understand that details of volume, power, etc. may change, but I'd have thought that preserving some canonical common design idioms such as the single, double and triple turret (including possibly heterogeneous mixes of weapons) would have been on the agenda.

I think there was a lot of real-world physics being thrown into the mix - lasers had to be so big to get range, and had to fire so long to get a chance of a hit that operating sandcasters and missiles from the same control station at the same time was going to make lasers (and missiles and sandcasters) moot.

TNE still has Screens/Sandcasters. I haven't looked at Brilliant Lances yet (other than when I bought it first), but I'm assuming it must include them. The FFS spreadsheet lets you add them.

They're in BR and BL. Sandcasters are a single turret fit in TNE.

I'll have to try to understand what FFS thinks is a legitemate weapons fit for a small ship. I mean, in old traveller, it was a simple '100 dtons = 1 turret' for the smaller vessels. Got muddy with bays and spinals and so on, but for small ships, you knew what you were getting.

Well, in TNE the standard designs fit generally to the 100 dtons = 1 turret, but the underlying rule is: if you can fit them on your ship, with the limits of volume, power, surface area, and crew - then you're good to go. Designers might also want to accommodate real-life concerns about endurance, crew comfort, and cost - unless the want to emulate the Imperial Russian Navy, 1905.

 

[kaladorn]

So back to the naval architect

Easiest thing to do is just design my new ship from scratch then rather than try to forward-port an MT design using systems not formally supported. Good enough.

 

[Uxi]

I remember finding some errors in Annti's sheets and fixing them when I was designing my big Hiver ships. Wonder how close we are. I tried to get them to work with Neo Office and/or Libreoffice awhile back but need to get back to it.

I had always given some thoughts to coding up some deckplan generation stuff (supporting both 'aircraft layout' with thrust parallel to the deckplan as well as "skyscraper layout" like the AZH) but never got passed the diagram stage.

 

[mithdraug]

Was a Speadsheet ever created for building starships using FFS?

 

[Starviking]

Was a Speadsheet ever created for building starships using FFS?

Yes, Antti Lahiten created one. IIRC it's available from the TNE Yahoo Group.