Torpedo Boats in Traveller
- Thread starter BillDowns
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
And what "sinking" a spaceship means, or more precisely, how one can. Before we can design the weapon we need to know the effect required of it I think.
Pulling from T5 jargon, I think "sinking" a ship is to "mission kill" a ship.
I can make a guess at a torpedo boat.
Traveller tells us what gunboats are -- they're small gunned military escorts. The Gazelle is a gunboat. So is the System Defense Boat.
So then, a torpedo boat can be a small military escort that carries torpedos.
So now I have to make up the definition of a torpedo. Pulling from T5, I'll say that a torpedo is a large missile tasked with penetrating the defenses of a ship of the line. How large? I don't know. One ton? Ten? I guarantee that this is one case where you'd want to keep track of inventory (no 'endless ammo' here), so might as well be at least a ton.
Subject to restrictions. For example, torpedoes may be more effective at one TL than another.
I can make a guess at a torpedo boat.
Traveller tells us what gunboats are -- they're small gunned military escorts. The Gazelle is a gunboat. So is the System Defense Boat.
So then, a torpedo boat can be a small military escort that carries torpedos.
So now I have to make up the definition of a torpedo. Pulling from T5, I'll say that a torpedo is a large missile tasked with penetrating the defenses of a ship of the line. How large? I don't know. One ton? Ten? I guarantee that this is one case where you'd want to keep track of inventory (no 'endless ammo' here), so might as well be at least a ton.
Subject to restrictions. For example, torpedoes may be more effective at one TL than another.
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Major B
SOC-14 1K
Chances are I'm missing the point here, so please clarify.
I thought the point regarding Torpedo boats in the Fighters thread was to find a more analogous comparison to OTU fighters vs OTU battleships.
What I mean is - WWII-era torpedo boats vs WWII-era battleships is a better analogy for comparison than WWII-era aircraft vs WWII-era battleships.
That said, if you want to try creating something along the lines of Robject's post it sounds interesting.
No, it was me who diverted the discussion. But if we're talking torpedo boats, then that's my two centicredits, based on what I think a torpedo is.
Now, if a torpedo is one ton, then fighters can carry torpedoes, and potentially mission-kill ships of the line. Is that closer to the spawning thread?
Makes me wonder, though... why not launch torpedoes from bays, and forget about fighter delivery?
Turned on its head, though, this means defending forces don't need capital ships; they need swarms of cheap torpedo-carrying fighters. Does that go easy on the defender's budget? It might, assuming they can successfully thwart an attack, assuming ships of the line don't have some additional advantage (if they're just spine carriers, and there's no cruisers to target, what good are they anyhow?)
Makes it seem like torpedos ought to be rather TL-specific... and not TL15. Maybe TL10, or TL20, but it doesn't seem at all like warfare in the classic milieu.
Lots of questions to ponder here.
Now, if a torpedo is one ton, then fighters can carry torpedoes, and potentially mission-kill ships of the line. Is that closer to the spawning thread?
Makes me wonder, though... why not launch torpedoes from bays, and forget about fighter delivery?
Turned on its head, though, this means defending forces don't need capital ships; they need swarms of cheap torpedo-carrying fighters. Does that go easy on the defender's budget? It might, assuming they can successfully thwart an attack, assuming ships of the line don't have some additional advantage (if they're just spine carriers, and there's no cruisers to target, what good are they anyhow?)
Makes it seem like torpedos ought to be rather TL-specific... and not TL15. Maybe TL10, or TL20, but it doesn't seem at all like warfare in the classic milieu.
Lots of questions to ponder here.
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Major B
SOC-14 1K
Still thinking on this.
The strength of a WWI-era torpedo boats were:
- high speed made them difficult to hit
- when possible used darkness to provide additional protection
- relatively high firepower and effectiveness against bigger vessels made them dangerous
Weaknesses:
- fragility
- limited ammo supply / endurance
These relate to OTU fighters fairly closely:
Strengths:
- high agility makes them hard to hit (high DEF DM)
- well, I guess using darkness as a cover doesn't equate well
- at lower TLs the missiles are effective and deadly, at higher TLs less so
Weaknesses:
-same
So is this instructive to the fighters debate at all?
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Usual answer - it depends on the ruleset.
In CT using the missiles special supplement and LBB2 ships then a missile armed small craft is more than capable of mission killing a capital ship.
The only other ruleset where this is even remotely possible is TNE, although it's probably doable using T4 rules too.
In a HG based TU then nuclear missile armed craft are a real threat until nuclear dampers and lower armour % per factor make them useless.
In CT using the missiles special supplement and LBB2 ships then a missile armed small craft is more than capable of mission killing a capital ship.
The only other ruleset where this is even remotely possible is TNE, although it's probably doable using T4 rules too.
In a HG based TU then nuclear missile armed craft are a real threat until nuclear dampers and lower armour % per factor make them useless.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
What's needed is a higher TL weapon - something like a one shot meson detonation device that is smallcraft deliverable.
I always liked the molecular disrution device in Ender's Game etc.
And rob, missile bays do launch torpedos - or at least big missiles (hinted at in missiles supplement and stated in Striker that bay missiles are twice the size).
I always liked the molecular disrution device in Ender's Game etc.
And rob, missile bays do launch torpedos - or at least big missiles (hinted at in missiles supplement and stated in Striker that bay missiles are twice the size).
For a torpedo, I was thinking of something like this:
a smallcraft designed to be operated by a computer - let's call it a Model 0-bis - powered by a maxed out m-drive, and carrying nuclear warhead. The torpedo tube launcher is 3m x 3m x 12m, or 8 dtons. (Did I figure that right - I'm kinda winging it).
The Model-0 bis has 2 cpu space, no storage. The standard load-out would be "Homing" and "Auto/Evade".
On a strike, roll 1d6+2 for the number of LBB2 hits. Would give 3 to 8 hits on a ship...
a smallcraft designed to be operated by a computer - let's call it a Model 0-bis - powered by a maxed out m-drive, and carrying nuclear warhead. The torpedo tube launcher is 3m x 3m x 12m, or 8 dtons. (Did I figure that right - I'm kinda winging it).
The Model-0 bis has 2 cpu space, no storage. The standard load-out would be "Homing" and "Auto/Evade".
On a strike, roll 1d6+2 for the number of LBB2 hits. Would give 3 to 8 hits on a ship...
Not unless you allow fighter squadrons to combine into one big battery (and then why not other ships?) You need a lot of them to overcome the fact that they're only ever going to have fac-2 or fac-3 missiles at best. They'll hit slow, unarmoured targets, but not much else. A 1000-dton frigate will beat them, even with a jump drive. (I posted the numbers on this in page 9 of the most recent fighters thread.)
One place they'd be useful for is commerce raiding. In High Guard, a convoy can scatter easily, so one big cruiser will catch at most one enemy merchant; a bunch of fighters, on the other hand, could split and catch a good chunk of the enemy tonnage.
--Devin
("Stay on target. Stay on target! Belauuugh!")
Yeah, I was speaking in the context of 'if you have torpedos, why deliver them via fighter', which I figured out an answer to ( = then you don't need to spend oodles of cash on capital ships ), etc etc.
Regarding a higher TL weapon, we've got antimatter torpedoes (missiles?) at what? TL17?
...and that neat HG 1ed rule that allows ships to release their entire inventory of missiles in one great strike! Yowza!
Where did these 5 dton missles come from ??
A size proposal plucked out of thin air to allow a Missile to cross the sacred "Factor A" barrier into 'spinal mount' territory. I was assuming that it could be designed using SS3:Missiles or Striker or MegaTraveller or FF&S.
As a point of interest, a 'turret" launched missile is 15 cm diameter x 1 meter long and weighs 50 kg. So standard missiles are between 20 and several hundred per dTon - a 5 dTon missile would equal 100 to several thousand turret launched missiles.
Okay, so like what I was proposing at the bottom of Page 1 
I think missles that large should be treated as smallcraft themselves, rather than as the standard weapons types.
Then, one could take that 50 dton boat mentioned earlier, scale it by 50 to 100 tons, add-on a couple of more tubes, and a laser turret, plus jump drive. That gets pretty dog-gone close to a WWII Elco boat, don't you think?
I think missles that large should be treated as smallcraft themselves, rather than as the standard weapons types.
Then, one could take that 50 dton boat mentioned earlier, scale it by 50 to 100 tons, add-on a couple of more tubes, and a laser turret, plus jump drive. That gets pretty dog-gone close to a WWII Elco boat, don't you think?
I may be already prejudiced as I use Torpedo boats IMTU.
There they are sub-1000 dTon craft with a 50 dTon missile bay. Torpedoes IMTU are single projectile missile bay ordinance, for simplicity they weigh 2.5 dTon or 5 dTon for 50 and 100 dTon bays respectively - the same as the 50 or 100 missiles nominally used for those bays.
A 200 dTon maximum speed, maximum armour micro-battlerider (or SDB) with a significant punch. Does not carry enough torpedoes for a significant engagement, just enough to threaten small capital vessels.
There they are sub-1000 dTon craft with a 50 dTon missile bay. Torpedoes IMTU are single projectile missile bay ordinance, for simplicity they weigh 2.5 dTon or 5 dTon for 50 and 100 dTon bays respectively - the same as the 50 or 100 missiles nominally used for those bays.
A 200 dTon maximum speed, maximum armour micro-battlerider (or SDB) with a significant punch. Does not carry enough torpedoes for a significant engagement, just enough to threaten small capital vessels.
I usually refer to them as missileboats, gunboats or scoutboats depending on the armament / mission. They usually have accomodations for the crew and are capable of extended duration missions in a system (ranging from a day to a week or more). They are carried by tenders. I use a 30 ton boat (not a ships boat, it just happens to displace the same tonnage) as a typical displacement for these small craft. I have stuck with standard weapon types, and given them light armor and decent sensors (good ones on a scout boat). They handle the "PT Boat" / MTB type missions IMTU. They handle long range insystem scouting duty, strike missions, picket duty as well as limited escort missions.
I have fighters (typically under 5 tons) as well, but they are usually engaged in orbital / atmospheric work. They are transported by carriers, and fly short range / duration strike missions, etc.
There is considerable rivaly between the boat crews and the fighter jocks. And, of course it allows you to use either type of background for adventures / missions. "PT-109" or "Midway". Best of both worlds
I have fighters (typically under 5 tons) as well, but they are usually engaged in orbital / atmospheric work. They are transported by carriers, and fly short range / duration strike missions, etc.
There is considerable rivaly between the boat crews and the fighter jocks. And, of course it allows you to use either type of background for adventures / missions. "PT-109" or "Midway". Best of both worlds
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Please elaborate, Veltyen. Are you saying your boeats get 20 rounds per bay? What rules do you use for combat?
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