Travel Zones & Communications Routes

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

While looking through the basic system generator in CT, MT, TNE, and T4 the checklist for each rule set appear to establish communications routes and travel zones before generating the main world's characteristics in all hex locations where a system occurs in a subsector.

CT and T4 checklists establish travel zones and communication routes before generating the main world's the UWP/UPP for the system located in the hex. Both rule sets give, at least in my opinion, very general details on the criteria for establishing travel zones and communication routes.

For CT and T4:
Wouldn't the process flow better if travel zones were established after creating the main world UWP?

Shouldn't Communication routes, at least in my mind, be established after all the main world characteristics had been generated in the subsector?

MT and TNE checklists establish travel zones after generating the main world's characteristics. However, the checklists do not mention establishing communications routes other than in the overview text. On the plus side they do provide a little more detail on the criteria used to establish travel zones and communication routes.

For MT and TNE:
Shouldn't Communication routes be added as the final step in the checklist?

 

[aramis]

You're presuming that they matter to what the mainworld will be, an assumption not in evidence in the OTU. And only weakly correlated in the real world.

One merely need look at the history of rail towns to see what I'm talking about - many a town grew as a coaling & water station - but with the change in boiler technology post-war, new, more efficient boilers needed both less water and less coal; without the refuelling, the town, while still on the trade route, was now bypassed and most faded. When high-range diesels were added, many of these folded up, as well.

Similar happened 70-100 years later, with the advent of the interstate system. As automotive range and speed increased, many stops for fuel became near-ghost towns, some surviving only as bedroom communities.

In no small irony, the ones to thrive aren't always the ones at maximum range, either- they're the ones that had something else to hold the commerce.

If anything, the routes should be generated FIRST, and worlds adjusted to support them.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy aramis,

You're presuming that they matter to what the mainworld will be, an assumption not in evidence in the OTU. And only weakly correlated in the real world.

One merely need look at the history of rail towns to see what I'm talking about - many a town grew as a coaling & water station - but with the change in boiler technology post-war, new, more efficient boilers needed both less water and less coal; without the refuelling, the town, while still on the trade route, was now bypassed and most faded. When high-range diesels were added, many of these folded up, as well.

Similar happened 70-100 years later, with the advent of the interstate system. As automotive range and speed increased, many stops for fuel became near-ghost towns, some surviving only as bedroom communities.

In no small irony, the ones to thrive aren't always the ones at maximum range, either- they're the ones that had something else to hold the commerce.

If anything, the routes should be generated FIRST, and worlds adjusted to support them.

Put the way you have above I can see the logic in the current checklist, which means you have once again kept me on the right track. Thanks for the help.

 

[Vladika]

If anything, the routes should be generated FIRST, and worlds adjusted to support them.

To a very large degree I have to agree with aramis on that. While it appears counter intuitive, working though an example or two will point out the "Why" of it.

In early jump history, J1-J2, worlds HAD to grow where fuel was available. While these, due to fuel concerns, will still be viable, expansion allows access to "better" worlds, insofar as trade classifications go.

While working out a J6 route (Mire, Mora, Vincennes, Depot(Corridor), Vland, Capital) It became quite clear that a FEW (not as many as I would have thought) marginal backwater worlds were essential for both fuel availability and maximizing the speed of jump over distance to archive the shortest time route. (In these cases it's total TIME not distance that will define the route. Ex: If it is "J8" between two points, you can do two J6s and still archive the necessary time while linking a logical world that increases total distance.)

These few I would expect to grow over time particularly as some are pretty habitable worlds, just "to far from everything else".

BTW, there are a couple of very logical 2 x J6 drop tank routes across the Rift. No dropping tanks in deep space as they can be collected by tugs and recycled at "island" worlds.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Vladika,

Thank you for the reply and supporting aramis on establishing travel zones and communications/trade routes before generating either the main world or star system characteristics.

To a very large degree I have to agree with aramis on that. While it appears counter intuitive, working though an example or two will point out the "Why" of it.

I wouldn't say that the process was counter-intuitive since it took twenty odd years for me to ask my question. Of course with time on my hands I can devote more time to things like this and over-evaluate what I'm working through. Earlier I just ran through the checklist until I completed what I was doing.

In early jump history, J1-J2, worlds HAD to grow where fuel was available. While these, due to fuel concerns, will still be viable, expansion allows access to "better" worlds, insofar as trade classifications go.

I get the idea that that when J1 came along that every system with a source of jump fuel would be important regardless of the trade classification. I also see that a jump drive range increased systems without the right trade classifications become backwaters where most of the golden day population has moved on.

While working out a J6 route (Mire, Mora, Vincennes, Depot(Corridor), Vland, Capital) It became quite clear that a FEW (not as many as I would have thought) marginal backwater worlds were essential for both fuel availability and maximizing the speed of jump over distance to archive the shortest time route. (In these cases it's total TIME not distance that will define the route. Ex: If it is "J8" between two points, you can do two J6s and still archive the necessary time while linking a logical world that increases total distance.)

These few I would expect to grow over time particularly as some are pretty habitable worlds, just "to far from everything else".

I agree that two uses of a J6 drive will cover the distance of J8 between two locations. However, if there is also a world two J4 between the two points the logical choice is the J4 route based on the decreased time in refueling and also giving me a reserve of fuel.

BTW, there are a couple of very logical 2 x J6 drop tank routes across the Rift. No dropping tanks in deep space as they can be collected by tugs and recycled at "island" worlds.

In my understanding of drop tanks retaining them during a jump does not achieve a maximum jump of 6. Without working out an entire hull let's say retaining drop tanks allows the ship on the first jump to cover 5 parsecs. Arriving at the destination the ship jettisons the tanks, heads out the outbound jump point and makes a full J6 which if my math is up to par is 11 parsecs.

Of course I may have come to the wrong conclusion on how drop tanks work which wouldn't be the first time.

Thanks again for the reply.

 

[rancke]

To a very large degree I have to agree with aramis on that. While it appears counter intuitive, working though an example or two will point out the "Why" of it.

I think the best results comes from a bit of both. You start by establishing the stellar neighborhood randomly. But you don't stop there, which was the mistake GDW made and subsequent publishers have spent 35 years not correcting. You go over the data and examine the strange results. "That's odd. How come that world isn't an important transshipment point for local traffic?" Then you see if you can come up with a good explanation. If you can, you've got a nifty detail that adds verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing setting. And if you can't, you change things to be the way you'd expect them to be.

(Not-strange results don't need to be expanded upon right away. You don't (as a publisher) need to explain how come a high-tech high-population world has a Class A starport. You do, I believe, have an obligation to your customers to explain why it has a Class E starport. And if you can't, to change it to a Class A or possibly a Class B or at the absolutely very least a Class C.)

In early jump history, J1-J2, worlds HAD to grow where fuel was available. While these, due to fuel concerns, will still be viable, expansion allows access to "better" worlds, insofar as trade classifications go.

It's bee thousands of years since J3 was invented. Any intermediate worlds mandated by J1 trade will mostly have been lost in the mists of time. J2 traffic is still relevant, but less so than before. Two J2 are cheaper than one J4, but only if the second jump doesn't incur extra expenses. So an intermediate world that solely caters to J2 traffic may not be viable.

These few I would expect to grow over time particularly as some are pretty habitable worlds, just "to far from everything else".

To be perfectly honest, I'd expect any pretty habitable world inside or close to the Imperium to have been fought over (legally if not literally) by rival colony projects long before the Civil War. There must be hundreds of thousands of groups who'd like their own world on every high-population world. The number of such groups that also has the money to organize a colony expedition will be much, much lower, of course, but there must still be dozen or scores or hundreds. If a pretty habitable world has not been settled by the Classic Era, there must be a very good reason. Mere random chance wouldn't do it. However, in the interest of preserving the setting, I deliberately don't go down that road.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Hello Vladika,

I agree that two uses of a J6 drive will cover the distance of J8 between two locations. However, if there is also a world two J4 between the two points the logical choice is the J4 route based on the decreased time in refueling and also giving me a reserve of fuel.

In this case It works well. The J6 route almost always will connect with more "local" shorter jump routes, or, be served by scout courier to transfer messages to those nearby routes.

In my understanding of drop tanks retaining them during a jump does not achieve a maximum jump of 6. Without working out an entire hull let's say retaining drop tanks allows the ship on the first jump to cover 5 parsecs. Arriving at the destination the ship jettisons the tanks, heads out the outbound jump point and makes a full J6 which if my math is up to par is 11 parsecs.

Here is an example route:
Deneb (Usani / Deneb 1925)
Asharam (Vast Heavens / Deneb 3031)
Esi-obe (Two Worlds / Corridor 0638)
Jafla (Sinta / Corridor 1840)

J6 courier fuels both internal J6 tanks as well as mounting J6 drop tanks. Jumps (J6) into deep space towards Asharam using drop tanks. Those tanks are recoved by tug on Deneb to be reused.

From Deep space a second J6 jump using internal fuel takes the ship to Asharam. Ship refuels internal tanks as well as mounting drop tanks at Asharam. Jump is again (J6) from Asharam to deep space in the direction of Esi-obe using drop tanks recoverable at Asharam.

From Deep space a second J6 jump using internal fuel takes the ship to Esi-obe.

The procedure is repeated from Esi-obe to Jafla.

(The route was chosen due to Esi-obe being a high tech class A starport. Deneb;Asharam;Ashishinipar;Sinta would have worked too.)

In either case the technologically repressed Asharam is required for a fuel point. Either a semi secret base near the gas giant, or, on-world base with contact, possibly bringing Asharam along a developing transition to "better" things.

Of course I may have come to the wrong conclusion on how drop tanks work which wouldn't be the first time.

Thanks again for the reply.

As always it's a pleasure to correspond with CotIs' politest member.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Hans Rancke,

I think the best results comes from a bit of both. You start by establishing the stellar neighborhood randomly. But you don't stop there, which was the mistake GDW made and subsequent publishers have spent 35 years not correcting. You go over the data and examine the strange results. "That's odd. How come that world isn't an important transshipment point for local traffic?" Then you see if you can come up with a good explanation. If you can, you've got a nifty detail that adds verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing setting. And if you can't, you change things to be the way you'd expect them to be.

(Not-strange results don't need to be expanded upon right away. You don't (as a publisher) need to explain how come a high-tech high-population world has a Class A starport. You do, I believe, have an obligation to your customers to explain why it has a Class E starport. And if you can't, to change it to a Class A or possibly a Class B or at the absolutely very least a Class C.)


It's bee thousands of years since J3 was invented. Any intermediate worlds mandated by J1 trade will mostly have been lost in the mists of time. J2 traffic is still relevant, but less so than before. Two J2 are cheaper than one J4, but only if the second jump doesn't incur extra expenses. So an intermediate world that solely caters to J2 traffic may not be viable.


To be perfectly honest, I'd expect any pretty habitable world inside or close to the Imperium to have been fought over (legally if not literally) by rival colony projects long before the Civil War. There must be hundreds of thousands of groups who'd like their own world on every high-population world. The number of such groups that also has the money to organize a colony expedition will be much, much lower, of course, but there must still be dozen or scores or hundreds. If a pretty habitable world has not been settled by the Classic Era, there must be a very good reason. Mere random chance wouldn't do it. However, in the interest of preserving the setting, I deliberately don't go down that road.


Hans

The above outline of generating a main world with or without the star system details is close to what I have done prior to MT. I am just now comparing the generators to see the changes.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Vladika,

Thank you for the expansion on your examples from Post 4 from 6/6/14.

Originally Posted by snrdg082102

I agree that two uses of a J6 drive will cover the distance of J8 between two locations. However, if there is also a world two J4 between the two points the logical choice is the J4 route based on the decreased time in refueling and also giving me a reserve of fuel.

In this case It works well. The J6 route almost always will connect with more "local" shorter jump routes, or, be served by scout courier to transfer messages to those nearby routes.

If I had to choose between a two J6 and a two J4 route between two points my choice is the J4 route since the time taken to refuel is less. Additionally, I feel that there is less strain put on the J-drive which, in theory anyway, should cut down on maintenance.

In my understanding of drop tanks retaining them during a jump does not achieve a maximum jump of 6. Without working out an entire hull let's say retaining drop tanks allows the ship on the first jump to cover 5 parsecs. Arriving at the destination the ship jettisons the tanks, heads out the outbound jump point and makes a full J6 which if my math is up to par is 11 parsecs.

Here is an example route:
Deneb (Usani / Deneb 1925)
Asharam (Vast Heavens / Deneb 3031)
Esi-obe (Two Worlds / Corridor 0638)
Jafla (Sinta / Corridor 1840)

J6 courier fuels both internal J6 tanks as well as mounting J6 drop tanks. Jumps (J6) into deep space towards Asharam using drop tanks. Those tanks are recoved by tug on Deneb to be reused.

I apparently did not understand your earlier comment and that my reply was not as clear as I thought.

My comment was made under the impression that the tanks where retained and jettisoned at the location where the ship exits jump space.

From Deep space a second J6 jump using internal fuel takes the ship to Asharam. Ship refuels internal tanks as well as mounting drop tanks at Asharam. Jump is again (J6) from Asharam to deep space in the direction of Esi-obe using drop tanks recoverable at Asharam.

From Deep space a second J6 jump using internal fuel takes the ship to Esi-obe.

The procedure is repeated from Esi-obe to Jafla.

(The route was chosen due to Esi-obe being a high tech class A starport. Deneb;Asharam;Ashishinipar;Sinta would have worked too.)

In either case the technologically repressed Asharam is required for a fuel point. Either a semi secret base near the gas giant, or, on-world base with contact, possibly bringing Asharam along a developing transition to "better" things.

Now that I'm up to speed and using the right information I understand and agree with your point. Can I use the story that I'm a old retired submarine sailor that takes a while to catch on.

As always it's a pleasure to correspond with CotIs' politest member.

Thank you for compliment, I only wish I was as successful in the real world.

 

[aramis]

It's bee thousands of years since J3 was invented. Any intermediate worlds mandated by J1 trade will mostly have been lost in the mists of time. J2 traffic is still relevant, but less so than before. Two J2 are cheaper than one J4, but only if the second jump doesn't incur extra expenses. So an intermediate world that solely caters to J2 traffic may not be viable.


Hans

The math implies that J3 shipping will NOT replace nor displace most of the J2, Hans. J2 is the cheapest cost per parsec under Bk2 and bk5.

 

[rancke]

The math implies that J3 shipping will NOT replace nor displace most of the J2, Hans. J2 is the cheapest cost per parsec under Bk2 and bk5.

The math is ambiguous (because the premises vary with the ship design system) and the results are close enough that I find it justifiable to assume that J2 andf J3 are pretty much equivalent, the diffenrence lying mainly in the specific routes¹. For example, J2 is not the cheapest across three parsec routes, nor across six-parsec routes where there's an intermediate world at three parsecs but not intermediate systems at two and four parsecs, nor in many other situations.

¹ And in the time a trip takes.​

But that wasn't what I was arguing anyway. I was pointing out that although J4 is about 25% more expensive than J2+J2, the advantage is reduced or even lost if you have to pay extra for fuel and service in the intermediate system. Which you might hve to if the only reason for the outpost in the intermediate system was to provide fuel and service.


Hans