TRAVELLER 5 - My Thoughts And Comments

[Supplement Four]

It was a long day at work, then I had an appointment after work...and then, I had dinner with a friend.

As I dragged myself up to the front door just a few minutes ago, I spotted the box. I knew what was in it, and I smiled to myself.

I haven't had time to evaluate any of the material. I'll write my thoughts later in this thread. But, my very first impression of Traveller 5, as I cut open the tape before folding back the box lid, was akin to that feeling I had, years and years ago, when I first spied the Little Black Box with the Beowulf on the cover, lying alone on the shelf, over 30 years ago.

When I saw it--that shining black cover, red line, and all--no lie, I got goose bumps.

Then, I pulled it out of the box--the MASSIVE tome of a role-playing game. And, I smiled so much that my teeth dried.

I flipped through, scanning the pages, looking here and there: I LOVE the look of the book! The illos. The typeface. EVERYTHING about the look of the book SCREAMS Traveller to me!

The actual look of the book could not have looked better, imo.

And, flipping through the pages, it truly reminds me of an old school RPG. I'm talking really old school--lots of detail and war game influence. Tons of text.

I'll dig into this slowly. There's no way I could (or, I think, anyone could) read this thing quickly then start playing ASAP. No, this book is going to take time--patience.

As I go through it, I'll post more thoughts.

But...just from the look of it (and the fact that MWM signed it guarrantees that I will not sell it), I'm extremely happy so far.

 

[Baltech Budapest]

Thanks Supp4. I actually got goosebumps reading that!!

 

[Jazzlvraz]

The only smile-generating improvement I've wished for so far: the Beowulf Mayday on the cover...

 

[pennshome723]

You know I picked my own copy up from the PO Box this morning and started looking at it. I like what I see so far and have posted here on Coti and Mongoose the same. I must say on Mongoose it would seem that many of them are putting down T5 sight unread and basing it all off of a few folks comments. One guy had the stones to say that Marc should throw in the towel and give up writing. Sadly Mongoose yuppie crowd have turned into a selective group with blinders of, and feel Mongoose is the only version of the game of any value.

Speaking for myself, with 37+ years of gaming Traveller...I like and collect it ALL. I view any product as a source of possible resource to add to my own game. I must say I use my own in-house set of rules, and raid any other product published for anything that might of be some value to my own game. So by buying it all, I have helped to support all the versions over the years. Nothing is perfect, but I will continue to buy Mongoose products, and anything else T5 comes out with. The cost doesn't matter to me, but others seem to dwell on the $100.oo price. I must say I am quite happy with what I got for that cost.

I am sorry to gripe but my point was to have folks give T5 a chance and judge it themselves, not bash it and listen to a few negative folks that seem a bit wrong for my liking. I support the products of my hobby that I have loved over the past 37+ years. I hope to stay and support this same hobby for 20 more!!!

 

[Murdoc]

Happy for you man! I just found out mine's on its way. Can't wait to see if my own reaction will be the same. (I liked your lead-up btw!)

 

[robject]

I must say on Mongoose it would seem that many of them are putting down T5 sight unread and basing it all off of a few folks comments.

Opinions matter to people. And there are gamers out there who don't care for FFE. And... first impressions are significant. But there are many in the Mongoose crowd who like other versions of Traveller too, including Traveller5.

 

[Echo]

Good.

I haven't received my copy yet, but what this expresses to me is precisely why I put my money down for it.

There has been a lot of handwringing recently and critical analysis of the book. Yet, for people who are in the market group, namely the people who joined in the kickstarter, I am fairly certain they knew what they were getting and it will be a possession they love.

What I'd like to see is the community coming together around it and start providing more resources - like a pdf Index for example...

 

[pennshome723]

For me it matters not what version a product is for, I collect them all because there is always a chance that despite the game mechanics that there might be some good concept or plot or what-ever in the product that add to my own game in some way. Also who knows in the future I might even be able to add some other element in at some future point as well too.

So with me I have the means to be able to collect everything so I do that. As each product comes out I buy a copy and read it, then place it on my bookshelves to add to my ever growing collection.

Now that is how I support the game hobby, I purchase Dead Tree items and have over the long years. Realize too I collect other lines of gaming stuff too, although many different lines have faded out. Currently I buy everything Traveller, Pathfinder D&D 3.5-3.75, and all books and related books on A Game of Thrones. From time to time I also buy One Off gaming products as well too, that relate in some way to my Space or Fantasy campaigns.

 

[HG_B]

I must say on Mongoose it would seem that many of them are putting down T5 sight unread and basing it all off of a few folks comments.

Really? I have read all the feedback over there up to this a.m. and I didn't see any of that. Just some people concerned because much feedback from those who have the new book is negative. Was it some hidden thread?

 

[pennshome723]

No there seems to be a growing feeling by reading the different threads and comments that T5 is a bad thing and Mongoose is the best. I have asked a number of players that I know and they say it isn't worth my time to even try to lead the folks to the water and try to make them drink. It is the old Wars of who's version of Traveller is better.

My view is all products are good just the same, and I feel they all have value in their own right. It all breaks down to, it is the Mongoose board and well a number of active players that post alot don't want their version of the game threatened and refuse to even give another version product a chance. They listen to a couple of players whom have posted reviews, and the wave of negative flavor keeps building. Sadly most folks have not even seen the T5 book yet, let alone read it cover to cover.

Now I got my own copy yesturday and I managed to page through it last night. I liked the book and yes it had me think of the days long gone from the beginning of the game as I was reading it. I didn't have a problem with what I read, and if there are errow or typos or etc...well I have learned over the years to just make corrections and move on. I have been playing long enough and can make the mental note and just move on and get what the intent of the article was meant for or about.

It also seems that many over there are crying about the cost of the book too. We they are mostly a younger crowd of players there, and maybe $100.oo US bucks is alot...but for me I don't bat a eye. I have the cash to spend on my hobby if I want something, so I bought it. I do understand that not everyone has the surplus funds like me to spend on their hobby, but still I feel that your getting a value for what we paid.

Some others also are a bit crittical of Marc Miller, stating that is time for him to step down and retire. That did piss me off, that players with almost no time under their belt and still living under mommy and daddies roof, and have never ever written anything in their life make statements like that about a man whom founded this Traveller game itself. I guess it is the Traveller Version Wars all over again.

As I pointed out, how can someone be critical of a product that they have not even seen yet...let alone read. I am trying to open people's minds to at least give T5 a chance and make their own opinion after they have had a chance to read it themselves. Still it is pointless to even try as I have learned.

 

[HG_B]

No there seems to be a growing feeling by ...

You didn't answer my question. (BIG Red Flag considering your original accusations)

I smell someone trying to start a Board War. Better stop now before you get banned.

 

[pennshome723]

Look you have to but read what has been said in the many threads...

As to a War...no thanks I have no wish to even go there...

All I wanted to do was state I finally got T5 and I like what I have read so far and feel that others should at least give it a read to make their own informed view of the product for themselves.

Also NOTE: I have had my account since Dec 2003 but have not said much over the years. The reason why I am speaking up now is I feel strongly about the T5 product /line.

 

[pendragonman]

No there seems to be a growing feeling by reading the different threads and comments that T5 is a bad thing and Mongoose is the best. I have asked a number of players that I know and they say it isn't worth my time to even try to lead the folks to the water and try to make them drink. It is the old Wars of who's version of Traveller is better.

...

Those posting on different threads are beating their own drums. Few of those negativity posters have actually even looked at the T5 book, let alone studied it.

The Mong version has been available to the public longer and is therefore more widespread. I can recall similar negative posts coming out when Mong was first released. Resurrect those threads to see my point. I myself never bothered with Mong Trav until about six months ago, and had nothing polite to say about it until about five months ago (mainly because of the fanboys of Mong).

Those that let others determine their opinion of a product strictly by relatively anonymous hearsay posts on a board (unless you know the poster in meatspace, you don't really know the poster) are doing themselves and any product so decided against a disservice. Use your own mind.

 

[rancke]

Those that let others determine their opinion of a product strictly by relatively anonymous hearsay posts on a board (unless you know the poster in meatspace, you don't really know the poster) are doing themselves and any product so decided against a disservice. Use your own mind.

Direct quotes from a book by people who are in possesion of copies is hardly hearsay.


Hans

 

[pennshome723]

Here is a direct quote from one of the guys that really does bug me alot...a Wil Mireu... This is the type of comments that are being made over there. Now I have tried to hold my own tongue but I do not feel I am doing or saying anything wrong....


Wil Mireu





Post subject: Re: Traveller 5

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:09 pm







Mongoose


Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:43 am
Posts: 130





2330ADUSA1 wrote:

Well until you have read it yourself, honestly how can you seriously comment on the value of a product?


The same way I can comment on the value of everything else. By looking at previews, reviews, snippets, extracts, examples etc. There's plenty of that around - on the Coti T5 board people are making example ships and characters and so on (doing Marc's work for him since in his "wisdom" he didn't include much in the way of examples, if he included any at all), and I can see from those that the system is far too detailed and complex for my tastes.

QREBS is one example. This is basically a ridiculously overcomplicated system for saying "this item is better/worse than the norm". In any other game a GM could just pull a number off the top of his head for that - "you find a beaten up gun - it works but it's not terribly reliable, so it's +1 on a roll to jam". But no, that's not good enough for T5, since there you're expected to fiddle with this silly QREBS system and describe it in terms of Quality, Reliability, and whatever else the "EBS" means to figure out all its' bonuses and penalties. Or, you just make up a number and carry on like in any other game. It's just additional complexity that adds little or nothing to the game that couldn't be added with a simple GM decision.

I have seen enough from all these reviews etc to know that T5 is less of a game and more of a toolkit of systems to use. It even says in one part that Marc expects that there will be more 'solitaire play' using T5, and it certainly appears to be something that isn't really designed to be a proper RPG (which requires other people to play). I've also seen enough to know that the level of detail is inane and anal-retentive, and the writing style is dry, uninteresting, and unevocative.

All of that I can glean from the information that is already out there. I don't need to waste $75 or $35 to buy the book or PDF (whenever they come out for the rest of us mere mortals) to know that T5 is a bloated, disorganised mess with a totally unappealing, out-dated, over-complicated design philosophy.

If it's crap, it deserves to be labelled as such, and not supported. We already have better versions of the game available, we should support the ones we like and ignore the rest, and hopefully they will wither on the vine. Obsessive collecting of sub-standard material does not give the author the clear signal that he needs to do better.

 

[pendragonman]

Direct quotes from a book by people who are in possesion of copies is hardly hearsay.


Hans

Hans,

Do I know you? Have we actually met? No? So, how can I know for sure that you are actually quoting the book unless you properly site the book?

If you properly site the book, then it follows that you have studied the book at least a little. Therefore you may be putting forth an informed opinion. Did you actually read my post, or look for parts to be snarky?

 

[GypsyComet]

Here is a direct quote...

To be fair, the person he is responding to (2330ADUSA1) has spent the last month being a patronizing troll. Wil is one of those who really can't stand him as a result.

To return to the question at hand: I have read through parts of T5. I have the CD. There is a lot of useful material in it, but it *is* buried under editing issues, unspoken assumptions, and, or course, the perceptions of what a decade-in-the-making $75 book should be like.

Am I using some of the tools? Yes. Am I playing T5? No.

 

[pennshome723]

To be fair, the person he is responding to (2330ADUSA1) has spent the last month being a patronizing troll. Wil is one of those who really can't stand him as a result.

To return to the question at hand: I have read through parts of T5. I have the CD. There is a lot of useful material in it, but it *is* buried under editing issues, unspoken assumptions, and, or course, the perceptions of what a decade-in-the-making $75 book should be like.

Am I using some of the tools? Yes. Am I playing T5? No.

EXCUSE me...because I defend my many years of game play, and my freaking HUGE library of Traveller stuff, and have played all of the versions of this game and have played longer than many of these kids have even been ALIVE. I know more about this game than most of those folks on Mongoose will ever hope to know. Plus I use much of my OWN In-House rules for the last 25 years...and am always looking for anything new or different to see if maybe it might be added in as well. Is that so bad?

I guess standing up for ones self against a bunch of snot nosed kids that that know nothing about life let alone this game, and many have only played just Mongoose Traveller is wrong. Well sir I guess your special and think yourself better than others as well.

If that is being a Troll...then I would rather be that than what you are.

 

[pendragonman]

So this is from the Mongoose boards? No wonder you are getting negative reviews. The vast majority over there are going to be Mongoose fanboy-ish and therefore denigrate any system that isn't Mongoose. Similarly negative comments about Mongoose can be found here early on in the Mongoose section of CotI.

Clearly said poster prefers a system where the entire product work is done for him. He doesn't want to put in much work to make a TU that is his. Nor does he want to know the finer details of a product or system, that is too much work for him. Paying Mongoose for sourcebooks is his preference. That's ok, more paying work for game designers.

If he is a GM, then he is likely new at it or at least new to Trav GMing. Almost anyone who has been GMing Trav for a while likes to create the fine details or has at least been cornered by a player or ten that want to know the fine details of their equipment.

Look, you need to understand that the type of review is really going to be colored by the forum you are reading at. Man has been trying to find unbiased opinions of things since opinions first formed. Try independent gaming sites (ones not linked with any specific game publisher). While not always unbiased one way or another, you have a better chance.

 

[HG_B]

Here is a direct quote from one of the guys that really does bug me alot...a Wil Mireu...

2330ADUSA1 wrote:

Well until you have read it yourself, honestly how can you seriously comment on the value of a product?


The same way I can comment on the value of everything else. By looking at previews, reviews, snippets, extracts, examples etc. ...

This doesn't come ANYWHERE close to your original accusation. Like I cautioned earlier. Don't try to start a Board War. It'll end badly for you.