Traveller 5 vs Mongoose Traveller comparison

[aramis]

Um... do you know what a copy-editor does? He improves formatting, style, and accuracy of the text. He is not concerned with the substance of the text. That's what you have an editor with knowledge about the subject matter for. One is not a substitute for the other.

It would be a miracle if the absence of a good copy-editor won't result in a lot of errors going uncorrected.


Hans

Many game designers have found that for game purposes, the copy editor MUST be a gamer, and must understand the game... because when they don't, they have a tendency to correct standard notations into unintelligible mush. One game's proof copy came back with every "1D" reference replaced with "ten" (I saw the draft for that one). Another, all the tables were eliminated by the editor, who didn't realize that they weren't duplicated. Those are the worst two I've heard of, but many lesser such errors have been induced by well meaning but ignorant copyeditors.

SJG is unusual in that it has a trained copy editor on staff - most game companies have it as a duty, but not someone specifically trained for it, because of the issues involved in needing to grasp what is being presented in order to ensure it is presented intelligibly.

Bringing an outside copyeditor up to speed in the timeframe Marc had set was not likely to be practical. And the ones that could be trusted to do it right would already be busy with projects.

Thor Olavsruud has discussed at lengths the needed skillset for a game copyeditor. He's the editor for Burning Wheel HQ, and works as a collumnist for a business mag.

 

[rancke]

Many game designers have found that for game purposes, the copy editor MUST be a gamer, and must understand the game... because when they don't, they have a tendency to correct standard notations into unintelligible mush.

Fair enough, but can such people really be so rare as to be impossible to find?

Well, anyway, it's moot because Dragoner has assured us that the text didn't need a copy-editor. So that's all right.


Hans

 

[saundby]

I used to be a professional editor. I have been trained as a copy-editor as well, and have performed that task both as an editor, and, when times were less kind, as a copy editor.

I weighed in on the beta where I could as a hobbyist.

My main concern with the final review by playtesters was that there wasn't coordination between them to make sure that the entire document was covered. I scanned the reports to seek areas that were getting less attention in choosing where to focus my effort.

There will be errors in the final document, but I think the playtest team did a pretty good job. Among other things, proper typography of ship names and classes was discussed. Amateurs they may be, but they know their material.

What a professional copyeditor would really have done for this work is no more than speculation, You may posit a well trained, conscientious, balanced, and quick copyeditor, but that combination is difficult to find. Especially when dealing with an outfit with no established editorial board or style guide. Basic skills and general experience would have been insufficient preparation.

Skills would not have been the limiting factor, but the crunch of time with the ambiguity of the job's scope. How that would have shaken out would have depended entirely on the character and specific experience of the copyeditor. Also, the choice of that copyeditor would have been performed in a limited time. I don't know what Marc's experience is in hiring copyeditors, that would be an important factor as well.

The material was turned over to people who both know it and are among those who are likely to be in the best position to criticize it. They didn't take a heavy hand in editing it in the final rounds, such as removing redundancies between sections (which is outside the scope of the copyeditor's job in my strongly held and professionally informed opinion), but they caught a lot of errors.

The final version of the text I saw still had errors, but was at an acceptable level for the type of work. (Another evaluation that should never be left to copyeditors.)

A regular editorial process is not always part of how something worthwhile comes into being. This project has had a lot of twists and turns, and it turned out as it did for many reasons. At least it is going to print.

My own greatest hope is that there are future printings that correct errata. To me, that's more significant than the number of errors in a solid, workable initial release.

To the strongest detractors I say, "Get real."

 

[SpaceBadger]

SJG is unusual in that it has a trained copy editor on staff

Sean Punch (aka Dr. Kromm) was a physics grad student (working on doctorate in particle physics, IIRC) when he got involved with writing and then editing for SJG. I think it was about 1996 or '97 he went to work for SJG full time. I agree that he has become an excellent editor and overall Line Editor for trying to keep everything consistent across the GURPS product line, but it is my understanding that most of that was natural talent and on-the-job training. (Of course, anyone who knows Kromm better than I do is welcome to correct me - most of our contact was in mid-90s participation on GURPS-L and playtesting for GURPS Vehicles v.2.) BTW, he is also a very nice guy and very good about answering questions and brainstorming playtest stuff by email (at least back then).

 

[rich4421972]

Sean Punch (aka Dr. Kromm) was a physics grad student (working on doctorate in particle physics, IIRC) when he got involved with writing and then editing for SJG. I think it was about 1996 or '97 he went to work for SJG full time. I agree that he has become an excellent editor and overall Line Editor for trying to keep everything consistent across the GURPS product line, but it is my understanding that most of that was natural talent and on-the-job training. (Of course, anyone who knows Kromm better than I do is welcome to correct me - most of our contact was in mid-90s participation on GURPS-L and playtesting for GURPS Vehicles v.2.) BTW, he is also a very nice guy and very good about answering questions and brainstorming playtest stuff by email (at least back then).

I wanted to point out that a dedicated, hard working copyeditor cannot solve all of the problems in a document, but he/she can certainly improve the work and, for the price, it is something to think about.

I never meant that a copyeditor was required. I disagree with the assertion that there is no stylebook for role-playing game publications. Most game companies (including SJG) adhere to the standards of the "AP Style Guide and guide to Media Law" and the "Chicago Manual of Style." In addition, SJG has a detailed template and explanation of the required formatting for both "Pyramid" magazine and book-length materials. This is just nuts and bolts and I do not fault FFE for either hiring or not hiring an outside company to do their inside work. Just saying it

FFE must have these things, too and I'm sure they used them. This is getting a little harsh on the people who have worked so very hard on this project. Let's all just give 'em a break and perhaps give some nice compliments instead.

Great job, guys/gals! We are so proud of you and hope to see your finalized product very soon.

 

[curmudgeon]

Wow, lots of stuff been discussed here, but I want to touch on a few things.

First, let me start with some background. I have been a player of Traveller since Christmas of 1979. I have loved the game in many of its incarnations, even TNE. Since the 1990s, I have been a professional copy editor, editor, proofreader, and writer. I have done this work in a variety of fields, including real estate, environmental engineering, and roleplaying games.

Each of these fields has a different set of criteria in what they want to see, how they want to see it, and how it should be edited. They do, however, have one thing in common. Each of them wants to make sure their text is clear, concise, and easy to understand.

Copy editing is a field often occupied by people who work really well alone. We are given the text, style guidelines, and a deadline. It is up to use to present a quality product at the end of that time. When it comes to copy editing RPGs, I find it is beneficial to know the game rules, but it is not always a requirement. Copy editing from a new perspective allows you to look at a game with fresh eyes, viewing the game as the intended audience will. I have edited several game books in this manner, and it really makes me look at every detail, asking questions that allow the writer to revise it with a clearer presentation.

I have been a betatester for T5 since before the T5 Beta CD-ROM came out. This game has gone through a great many changes over that time. We have seen it evolve and change based on our comments. The latest version was given to us with a quick turn around time for finding errors, typos, and vagueness in the text. Is this process perfect? No, but it does a good job catching a lot of the errors. As a professional copy editor there are a few minor changes I would make, but I expressed my views and we will see what they will do.

Copy editors for the gaming industry are something that is usually needed, and few game companies use them. Would I like to see more people do this? Yes, it might give me more freelance work. Plus the books I buy would not drive me crazy with the shoddy editing I see.

I think that Traveller 5 will be pretty good when I get the final copy. Some of the text reads dryly, like a college textbook, but at least the books doesn't read like it is trying to be my "bestest bud ever!" like some books.

 

[Dragoner]

Positive vibes to the launch of T5.

 

[aramis]

Sean Punch (aka Dr. Kromm) was a physics grad student (working on doctorate in particle physics, IIRC) when he got involved with writing and then editing for SJG. I think it was about 1996 or '97 he went to work for SJG full time. I agree that he has become an excellent editor and overall Line Editor for trying to keep everything consistent across the GURPS product line, but it is my understanding that most of that was natural talent and on-the-job training. (Of course, anyone who knows Kromm better than I do is welcome to correct me - most of our contact was in mid-90s participation on GURPS-L and playtesting for GURPS Vehicles v.2.) BTW, he is also a very nice guy and very good about answering questions and brainstorming playtest stuff by email (at least back then).

Sean's commented on having been trained in copy-editing in an on-campus job, prepping grad-student works for publication. He, like me, is a man of interesting background including working around his major, as much as or more than in it.

Oh, and FFE appears to be: Marc Miller, Darlene Miller.
FFE has several non-employees doing specific tasks: Don M., Robject. And until several months ago, Hunter and Andrew - I've stepped into Andrew's shoes.

 

[rich4421972]

I think that Traveller 5 will be pretty good when I get the final copy. Some of the text reads dryly, like a college textbook, but at least the books doesn't read like it is trying to be my "bestest bud ever!" like some books.

I really like the tone of the new book. The illustrations are great and, besides the individual page numbering of each chapter, it is really easier to get around. I printed out a great deal of my favorite chapters, wrote in the page numbers myself and am having a great time

When you think of it, the original black books were not that warm and fuzzy, either. The subject matter is so compelling (now as back then) that I find myself drawn to it just like I was to Traveller4 and Classic Traveller.

 

[Nerhesi]

Hey - for the new T5 version, please tell me that fighters are significantly harder to hit? Or that hitting is significantly harder than mongoose?

Or are we looking at hitting being trivial as per Mongoose? Where you positive modifiers available to hit: Fire control, gunner skill, dex/int DM completely dwarved your possible defensive modifiers (-2 for dodging, -1 for evade software.. then range, but not usually).

Im wondering if the new version at least takes into account defender/dodger/piloting skill as equally as it takes into account firing skill.