Traveller 5 vs Mongoose Traveller comparison

[Vladika]

Marc Miller released a T5 draft as a CDROM in November 2008. He has also stated that he will direct it very closely and not trust others with production so much as before (T4). - http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/T5

So I am on safe ground thinking Marc, after three decades of not being able to "trust others with production" is going to do it right this time?

It has gone to press already. Yes, it could have used real proof reading by a real copy editor.... - DangerousThing

...there's no way all that errata could have been edited into the final PDF on time... - Shonner

Four plus years wasn't enough time to do "on time"?

...kickstarter was a spectacular success. Yet there wasn't money to pay a real copy editor to do a proper job? - rancke

A real copy editor would have needed months to get it done to your version of "proper" and would still have had errors in it.

Those additional months would have pushed back delivery to well passed the current timeline, which would then open up the authors to grousing about delayed delivery of a product they paid for. - pendragonman

Yeah, after 4 years those "additional months" would have just pissed everyone off...lol Now we can be content "grousing about" more of the ERRATA we've been buying for the last 35-36 years!

...One concern is that Traveller5 may fragment the player base more by adding yet-one-more rule system in a Babel of rules systems. - robject

It certainly WILL fragment the fanbase. It's mechanically incompatible on many levels.

Unfortunately, even as a "reference" it's already creating division...

The one thing T5 has prompted me to do is to start doing my house rules... I'll be pulling a very few items from T5... (That's about ALL that I've found useful.) - aramis
Administrator

And that from the usual "voice of Marc"?

Don McKinney gives me old ERRATA for free http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/ConsolidatedCTErrata.pdf
and Marc Millers offers to sell me the new ERRATA and toss in some swell swag...

2,085 - backers
$294,628 - pledged of $24,000 goal
0 - seconds to go
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/traveller5/traveller-5th-edition

T5 looks to be a raging success, for one persons bank account. CT keeps looking better and better.

 

[Shonner]

Four plus years wasn't enough time to do "on time"?

1 month. Not 4 years. They asked for errors found in the text released last month to be submitted as errata. Lots of it was sent. The book was re-written practically since the Kickstarter started.

 

[nats]

The fact he hasnt used a copy editor is not looking good. I cant imagine why that is the case when Marc made a heck of a lot more in preorders than he intended. For practically every book I have seen on Kickstarter, employing a professional editor is the first stretch goal!! Marc has missed out a crucial stage. I think that could definitely be T5's downfall.

The Kickstarter finished seven months ago - thats more than enough time to edit it properly. It's just this kind of doubt (and just a 'gut instinct' as well I guess) that prevented me from supporting his Kickstarter, despite the fact that Traveller is one of the great loves of my life.

I really would love to see an exciting, dynamic, 'cut to the point' Traveller version come out. I want something I can use to play easily around a table (like MgT) but also that also supports very detailed design type solo play as well (like CT).

I think though the likelihood is I will be playing MgT for quite some time yet.

(Just in writing this short text I had to edit it three times to get it the way I wanted it by the way, and I bet even then its still got a mistake in it somewhere!)

 

[Vladika]

1 month. Not 4 years.

T5 draft as a CDROM in November 2008


4 years it seems to me. Of course you could make the point that Marc sat on his hindquarters and did nothing for the vast majority of those 4 years.

A one month "token input"? Yep, rushed into print at the last minute.

In the Army we called this a "Cluster F*ck"

 

[rich4421972]

1 month. Not 4 years. They asked for errors found in the text released last month to be submitted as errata. Lots of it was sent. The book was re-written practically since the Kickstarter started.

To be fair, errata will be found for many years. Errata is still being discovered for the Traveller4 books (and it's going onto CD right now).

I think people will be divided because they want to be divided. Every version of Traveller has brought messages of doom from doomsayers. This, IMHO, has benefited the doomsayers in every case, but never Traveller or gaming as a whole.

It is only human to grumble, it is super-human to adapt and enjoy life (or imagined life) with all its troubles. Humanoids don't really have hind quarters per se. I think the Vargyr do. However, their humanoid bodies and front leaning stance make it hard for them to rest on them.

I think T5 has been in various stages of completion for years. Maybe it's the new flux dice? I don't understand those either. I give you that. Let me use good old dee-sixes anyday.

 

[Dragoner]

Hmmm ... a professional Traveller copy editor?

 

[rich4421972]

Hmmm ... a professional Traveller copy editor?

Yeah. Why didn't they do that? Of course, it might have to be from a firm that understands statistics and math. How do other companies d it? That would be comparatively cheaper than releasing a book with many errors and repetitions. It takes a great deal of time to create a comprehensive errata document. And, if Traveller ends up with say, 25-50 pages of errata (It could happen), it won't help sales or silence critics.

 

[pendragonman]

T5 draft as a CDROM in November 2008


4 years it seems to me. Of course you could make the point that Marc sat on his hindquarters and did nothing for the vast majority of those 4 years.

A one month "token input"? Yep, rushed into print at the last minute.

In the Army we called this a "Cluster F*ck"

Vladika, we have been pointing out errors for the entirety of those 4 years. Some of those errors were badly worded rules and sections, some of those errate were typos.

We have had several versions released to us to re-edit. We have re-edited it over and over again.

About Thanksgiving (end of Nov) a more final-pre printer- version was released. We sent mounds of errata to that, too.

It is not like we have been sitting on it doing nothing since its Beta release in 2008. Playtesting of rules, looking for typos, fixing poor wording. Heck some entire sections of rules have been completely redone.

When you yourself do a magnum opus of your life's work, and for most of the last 40 years Marc has been working on this (and for most of that time he has had "professionals" screw the pooch on editing and rules generation, see all previous versions of Trav for details) so clearly this is his magnum opus, you can call it a cluster f***. If you have been actively involved in the Beta process, your opinion of it being a cluster f*** would be valid.

I have been in on it since the first part of the Beta. Are the rules everything I would like? No, but I am not the author. Will there be typos? Yep. Will there be errata? Yep. Go to any book anywhere on Earth. Read it. You will find typos, you will find errata, you will find people who disagree with the author's original intent.

Once you find a book, especially a book of rules, that you find no typos in, no errata for, and that you agree with every rule written in, let us know. Likely, you will have written it yourself; and all of us will "help" you find all of those things mentioned above.

 

[pendragonman]

Hmmm ... a professional Traveller copy editor?

Actually, sounds like a nice paying gig. Where do I sign?

 

[rich4421972]

T5 draft as a CDROM in November 2008


4 years it seems to me. Of course you could make the point that Marc sat on his hindquarters and did nothing for the vast majority of those 4 years.

A one month "token input"? Yep, rushed into print at the last minute.

In the Army we called this a "Cluster F*ck"

Mind you, a book printed several years after a draft was completed would also be a "CF." No way to win, I think.

 

[Dragoner]

Actually, sounds like a nice paying gig. Where do I sign?

Yes, you would corner the market for sure, I've never heard of another person.

 

[Dragoner]

Yeah. Why didn't they do that?

Because none exist; you do not have an out of field copy editor edit technical documents, they would not know what they were reading, for example the tonnage and spelling of a Ghalalk.

 

[rich4421972]

Because none exist; you do not have an out of field copy editor edit technical documents, they would not know what they were reading, for example the tonnage and spelling of a Ghalalk.

It is called "technical editing" or the writing of "business prose." The University of British Columbia and Washington State University, among many others, offer degrees in the field. I possess such a degree. The only requirement to form an editing business is a desire to do it. Oh, and you probably need a reliable computer, an internet account and a modern word processor (like Word or Apache Openoffice.org). I also recommend one of those plastic accordion-style organizers.

The profession of the copywriter lends itself to many different varieties of editorial duties . Since the profession tends to be characterized by the sole proprietor business owner, each editor is different. FFE had simply to look for one, interview him/her and gain the services of a technical copyeditor probably for a relatively small amount of money. Major corporations need technical editors as do publishing houses, fiction writers and universities. The diversity among editors is the result of the goals that the editor wants to work towards.

I could recommend a few good ones, if you'd like (just PM me). If you live outside the Pacific Northwest or in another country, you might need to "google it."

 

[Dragoner]

The University of British Columbia and Washington State University, among many others, offer degrees in the field.

Of editing Traveller documents?

 

[rich4421972]

Of editing Traveller documents?

Yes. In the same way that an engineering degree also prepares a professional engineer to think critically, resolve disputes among workers and test a great number of different machine parts according to a blueprint and a manual of industrial tolerances. That's why the P.E. exam is given separately from the actual graduation from an engineering program.

The focus of the linguistics/technical editing degree is on linguistics and, to a minor degree, syntax and semantics. We also create written forms and grammatic systems of oral language. I spent a year translating a spoken language into a lexical reference work. It was exhausting but I loved every minute of it. Working copyeditors cannot afford to restrict their services to one type of writing ( say, aerospace manuals, business records or clothing catalogs). That's just occupational versatility. "Traveller," as you are using it, is just another iteration of the business prose type of writing.

That's why you need to interview a copyeditor before hiring him/her.

 

[Dragoner]

The focus of the degree is in linguistics and, to a minor degree, syntax and semantics. We also create written forms and grammatic systems of oral language. I spent a year translating a spoken language into a lexical reference work. It was exhausting but I loved every minute of it. Working copyeditors cannot afford to restrict their services to one type of writing ( say aerospace manuals or clothing catalogs). That's just occupational versatility.

That's why you need to interview a copyeditor before hiring him/her.

Yeah... and that's why we outsource only to TE firms with experience in the field.

I know the costs, and for what was raised, the money is nothing; hiring a real TE firm, which wouldn't have any experience either, would probably eaten nearly a quarter of the money alone and still generated a ton of mistakes. RPG's, boardgames; are all amateur hour, there isn't any real money in them compared to other industries and Trav in that pot is even smaller.

Marc does have the right to make money though, I am happy for him if he does and thankful to trav for the relaxation time it gives me. I was happy to give the time I did playtesting and proofreading.

 

[Cryton]

I was happy to give the time I did playtesting and proofreading.

As was/am I.

 

[rich4421972]

Yeah... and that's why we outsource only to TE firms with experience in the field.

I know the costs, and for what was raised, the money is nothing; hiring a real TE firm, which wouldn't have any experience either, would probably eaten nearly a quarter of the money alone and still generated a ton of mistakes. RPG's, boardgames; are all amateur hour, there isn't any real money in them compared to other industries and Trav in that pot is even smaller.

Marc does have the right to make money though, I am happy for him if he does and thankful to trav for the relaxation time it gives me. I was happy to give the time I did playtesting and proofreading.

. I don't think a ton of mistakes would be made. It is a profession and I disagree that it would cost up to $75,000. If editors (like accountants) cannot produce perfect accuracy on a project , they should not be hired. There are enough of them out there that it is a buyer's market.

If you are allowing $75,000 in editing expenses for a product that cost, at most, $24,000, there's a little bit of lost money there. Copyediting doesn't cost quite that much, even for a six hundred page book that has at least three major revisions on every page. Evenso, I don't know any editors that would pass up a job like this (even at its real market price).

Ultimately, you are absolutely right. Play testers will do an accurate job because it is what they love. But in a month? probably not.

 

[Shonner]

I think T5 has been in various stages of completion for years. Maybe it's the new flux dice? I don't understand those either. I give you that. Let me use good old dee-sixes anyday.

How does one improve on the "roll 8+ using 2D6" mechanic? Traveller 5 will soon reveal if it can be done or not.

I'm interested in how players (new and old) will use Traveller 5 and what sci-fi themes/settings they will bring to their Traveller game sessions based on the sci-fi books they've read that were published between T4's release and now?

 

[Shonner]

Of editing Traveller documents?

The Traveller 5 book is like the Star Fleet Technical Manual from 1973. One person can edit the text (the story narrative stuff). But the tables and event charts and history of the Imperium (the data), how is that verified as typo-free by an editor? Someone else would be involved in that, like the scores of beta players that combed over everything with each chapter's PDF release over the years. And each player did have their say on what the charts should have in them, and which version of Traveller should be the dominant trait in T5, etc.