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Traveller 5th Edition

About design sequences I have very sharp opinion.
I really love design sequences, and I enjoyed a lot, both High guard and striker. But after I became a real life engineer, I noticed that that was all unrealistic.
However from the business point of view I advocate an options version. The point is that games are information products, and this kind of products have the characteristic of being modular and thus customizable. Most information products are customizable, like MyYahoo and MYCCN websites, softwares and cable TV.
In such a business You deliver something people can tailor to their need and wills. Howewver You need to be carefull not to create a monster like Rolemaster with too many options that would generate a week long debate on rules before play. A more simple division could be having three levels of play compatible with each other: begginers, advanced and grognard. This is sort of what happened with the original D&D, first came the old red box of the basic, the the expert and after a few years came advanced D&D. A grand design for traveller could be such as this one, a set of complimentary rules released over four or more years.
This goes together with the usual "programmed obsolescence" of information products. When the target public has acquired the product nobody else will buy, this is the moment to release a new procut that will kill the previous one and make everybody buy it again. This is why Microsoft realeases new windows and office version every couple of years or so.
Another positive aspect of this is the Venture capital nature of entertainment industry of which the game industry is part of, most products will fail, only a few (one in five to one in ten) will succeed, and this one has to be exploited to the max.
Take a look at the old TSR, and you will see many failed stuff like Star frontiers and Gamma world, but the one which went forward was D&D, it became a profitable line and most of the books were settings, not rules. Rules bother new players, get away with them, adventures and settings bring new players, You are selling entertainment not simulations. Players don't care if the rules are a bit unrealistic, or could be bettered, they want to have fun. Fun is your real product.
You'll never see design sequences for air galleons, castles or magic detailed in the old D&D, what you'll see is many masterpieces in adventures that deal with players having a challenge and fun like Temple of elemetal evil, Slave lords, Against the giants, Ravenloft and so on.
Note that these adventures have huge incosistencies and the adversary plans are inherently and obviously flawed because it simply ignores the existance of PC's parties, but this don't detract from game value.
I'm certain that adventure writing is one of the strongs points for Mr Miller. He should concentrate in that.
To sum it up, I would make T5 a very simple game with just one book of rules, and them would release adventure after adventure, and setting after setting. After a few years and noticing that the game has been well received I would create a new form like advanced T5.
I would never base my new company in just one product, You need a product mix. Remeber thsi is Venture capital, most products are failures. You roll a D6 and need a 6 for profit, so You need to roll a bunch of dice.
Best regards


[This message has been edited by Vicente (edited 24 February 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
I still think there's room for a compromise. In my mind the complex system is established first and the simple system's components are drawn from it, just like you want. However, once we have our list of components we then develop a simpler, more abstracted, way of assembling them.

In QSDS you still tally up Mw of power use, figure surface area, assign workstations, and a bunch of other number-juggling which, since you aren't allowed to change or optimize anything, seems rather pointless; some of these steps should be able to be abstracted without seriously damaging inter-system compatability.

By way of example, in FF&S you're allowed to mount as many turrets as you want on a ship so long as you can account for volume, power use, and surface area; all of which can be juggled and optimized if you're willing to take the time and effort. In QSDS you're given a list of pre-made turret weapons (i.e. no juggling) but you still have to account the volume, power use, and surface area. Couldn't we instead just establish a fixed-value rule of thumb like '1 turret per 100 dtons'? The end result (number of turrets allowed on the ship) will be the same -- the rule-of-thumb having been defined through examination of trends and values in the complex system -- but it requires a lot less work from the prospective ship-designer.

Such 'arbitrary' restrictions might not go down well with number-crunching gearheads, but are they even going to use this system? Did HG-heads design many Book 2 ships? I agree, for consistency's sake, that it should be possible to convert between systems without doing a total re-design, but since I'd imagine folks are by and large going to stick with their complexity-level of choice, actual conversion probably won't be all that common an occurence, and IMO shouldn't be the primary concern in developing a 'simple-alternative' craft design system.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the HG-heads may have designed a fair number of Book 2 ships, because Book 2 was available for several years before HG ever appeared. Since I didn't get into either TNE or T4, I'm an MT (pre-Virus, bleah!) fan, I can't comment on the details there, but I agree that certain ground rules that make life easier (like 1 hardpoint per 100 displacement tons) can be made, as long as they hold true both ways, or there's a reasonable explanation why a design is sub-optimal.
Ideally, if you were going to use a system of `modules', each module would be all but self-contained: it would require space and would have mass, the only thing that would need to be rolled into the rest of the ship would be controls (since they're modified by what computer system's available). The power plant needed by the module is part of it's space and mass, as is fuel for that power plant (with a note of how much per hour is needed so a designer can tweek the amount available if desired), and any necessary ammunition (again, a standard amount, with notations on how much mass/space per shot/burst/etc if a designer wants to add or subtract some). I once did some of these for standard turrets for MT, worked pretty well, you could just plug them in and go, made for quite easy customization.

StrikerFan
 
There really is no perfect solution to the question of complexity/realism and difficulty in Role Playing Games.

I was a huge fan of both 2300ad and TNE which both captured my imagination more strongly than the CT. I must confess though that this was probably down to my own maturing.

Reviewing the CT books I love the austere design and the brevity. I would rather see little bits of great art than lots of average stuff.

I am sure that T5 will remain playable. The only RPG that I have bought in some 5 years was the recent Star Wars RPG for the wizards. It looks lovely but by about half way through the reading the rules I decided that I simply didn't want to fight my way through the morass of rules which seemed to frightfully clunky.

I remember the same thing happening a number of times..inspirational and exciting game universe held together with rules which sucks the very life out of any gaming you do there.

I think that it is really important that the initial release should include or be quickly followed on by excellent adventure/campaign material.

I think that a strong starting point feeds the sibling game in those early months and can mean the difference between a game gathering dust on a week after being bought, and really taking root and growing into something that can weather the ups and downs of the tabletop gaming industry.



------------------
Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com
 
Lucas
I couldn't agree more with you when you say:

"Reviewing the CT books I love the austere design and the brevity. I would rather see little bits of great art than lots of average stuff. "

Many games clutter the books with "friends handdrawing" which add next to nothing to the game, and also extensively describe thing better left undescribed.
Also I hate the lots of similar guns that have one or two different mofifiers just to make the player think there's an option. CT brevity and simplicity is much more realistic.
Best regards


------------------
Vicente
 
KISS - the Keep It Simple Stupid philosphy is great in reality, but becomes more difficult to apply when one is trying to 'simulate' reality!

The tradeoff between Complexity and Simplicity for the sake of real time play (i.e. - lively!) is often a matter of quantity - how many steps, tables and die roles does it take to screw in a light bulb - versus time. This makes or breaks the enjoyment of the effort!

I think the missing element here is the Computer as an integral play aid. I'm not talking about online, multiplayer RPGs - these take the number one complexity factor out (the Human Referee!) - I'm talking about play aids.

In the light bulb senario => referee selects task form list and computer runs thru 5 tables, and two die roles each player, accounting for engineering and JOT skill modifiers and from this complex process spits out the fact that one team mate must role two or better to avoid breaking bulb and injuring party in explosion of reactive gas with current atmosphere - all before the referee's finger has cleared the mouse!

In other words, I don't want to have to look up three tables in order to determine the impact of a certain spiral mount weapon on the jump capability of my half designed ship - but I know those table need to exist to add balance and 'believability' to the game.

I think the answer to this is a computer augmented game - what do you all think?
 
I really don't like the idea of using a computer during my gaming session. It will take table space and will take my attention off my players. I don't need exact results to any particular task. What I need is a system flexible enough to give me good guidelines on performing tasks. However, a computer may be useful in aiding a referee in design an adventure. While gaming, I prefer to concentrate my attention to the players.

Best wishes,
Ron
 
Ron, I can tell you're a good referee!

When I used the computer for traveller in the late 80's (sigh - no longer have those C64 programs) it was not used for referee only stuff - the screen was off to the side in plain view of everyone! I kept control of the keyboard of course - otherwise we would have had a mess - and too much distraction.

In this fashion I found the computer usefull during play and it actually let me focus more on the players and also allowed the players to consult with the screen while I was consulting with my 'god notes and roles'.

Another method I employed when the 'table space' (sometimes a dresser top!) was at a premium was to use the computer to bing and generate random encounters or to simply provide (at the press of the 'n' key) a random NPC or several. With a simplistic interface to task based info this provided no more distraction then consulting a reference sheet and rolling the cubes.

I think a well devised system can facilitate both roles - design and play. And should also be flexible enough to allow for off the cuff play (I remember playing on a wood fence once - definitely no place for a desktop
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
The problem with such a system is that you can end up with something like T4's QSDS, combining the worst of both worlds -- you're still dealing with multi-place decimals and counting up Megawatts and such<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must say that I agree with both the above and with Vincente point about 'philisophical focus'. IMHO to be successful T5 must be simple without being simplistic. GURPS Traveller has done this very successfully with its starship design sequence (using the complexity of GURPS Vehicles to develop simple 'modules' or 'componants' that are simple to plug together. New modules can be developed by gearheads and then used by all. Of all the Starship design systems I have used it provides the best balence between detail / flexibility and simplicity.

In contrast I find First In very detailed and 'realistic' but almost impossible to use in a simple way to develop 'realistic' planets with believable population densities for their Tech Level. In contrast the original CT system is too simplistic (for todays market) in that the planetry UPP that was developed was all too often just unbelievable, particularly when surrounded by other randomly generated planets.

Given the degree of success with which the old CT Material is selling I belive it would be an error to move too far away from the simple style of formula's presented in books 1-3. Even books 4-8 are not really complex, by odays standards. I would be tempted to initially develop (but not yet sell) highly complex rules for the scientific things such as Vehicle/Starship design, Planetry/System Development and Combat (Space or Ground). Having thoroghly playtested such products using the members of boards such as this, you could then identify how best to 'simplify' those rule sets and place them into a new version of Books 1-3. Once people buy the simple versions those who want the extra complexity will purchase it, those who don't won't. Those who want the best of both worlds will want software to do the hard work for them.

If I might make a point here, a major effort needs to be made not to make rules too prescriptive, particlarly in areas where sophont inspired classification systems are concerned. For example on what basis is a "Mainworld" of a star system classified? Ever since CT Book 6 Scouts, the basis has been that the planet with the highest population in a system is the main world. What happens if another planet in the system has a better starport? Or the historical government of the system is based on a different planet from that with the highest population? Both might be good exceptions to the NORM, but players tend to read 'rules' in a very prescriptive fashion. The NORM might be that the mainworld is the planet with the highest population, but this will not always be the case. Other NORMS might include 'rules' for Starport Classifications, Government Types, Law Levels, Animal Behaviours, etc.

There are lots of normative ASSUMPIONS that can be used within the rules to assist GMs to develop planets etc, but such assumptions should be carefully highlighted as optional and not made central to the whole workings of T5. This I believe has been a central caracteristic of all the versions of Traveller since book 1-3. In effect the NORMS of the 3I have become ossified into 'rules'. I do not believe that was ever Marc Millers intent.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BitKnot:
I think the missing element here is the Computer as an integral play aid. I'm not talking about online, multiplayer RPGs - these take the number one complexity factor out (the Human Referee!) - I'm talking about play aids.

<snip>

I think the answer to this is a computer augmented game - what do you all think?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more. I quite like the extra detail and complexity, but HATE trawling through 1001 tables and 2^10 dice rolls to determine that the system I've just generated isn't really what I want. As a referee I want to be able to generate a fair degree of base detail very quickly and then spend my time adjusting that detail so that I get the correct "look and feel" to the Thing I am developing, be it a Starship (with deck plans of course!), a planetry system, a seties of 'beasts' on a planet etc. There can be a lot of fun in the complexity, but the real fun is in the Game!
 
Ah, well put JBM!

The flexibility of experimentation computer aided design brings to the table can be substantial - without taking away from having fun!
 
PLEASE DO NOT DESTROY OR MAUL THE T5 Version of FF&S. FF&S was the first design system that I felt comfortable with. One that I could design the ships and vehicles that I wanted to design. This has been the only thing keeping me interested in Traveller since TNE came out (primarily due to not having a gaming group to play with). I would be more than happy using a detailed system to design drop-in blocks for a simpler system that others could use.

Charles H
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crh:
PLEASE DO NOT DESTROY OR MAUL THE T5 Version of FF. FF was the first design system that I felt comfortable with. One that I could design the ships and vehicles that I wanted to design. This has been the only thing keeping me interested in Traveller since TNE came out (primarily due to not having a gaming group to play with). I would be more than happy using a detailed system to design drop-in blocks for a simpler system that others could use.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree. Its always easier to develop a simpler/less detailed system from a more detailed system. Develop the T5 version of FFS and then develop the quick design systems from that.
 
Well, here comes the opposite opinion. I do scientific research as a living. One of the first lessons I give to my graduate students, and that is a hard one to learn, is: Not everything that can be measured/calculate, deserves to be measured/calculated. I often see young students fascinated by the idea of measuring anything they can about certain natural phenomena, just because they have access to equipment that allow that. Alternatively, they try to calculate every single statistic that they know, just because they know it. They miss the point that they are only wasting energy. What they should do is to study their theory and design the simplest experiment they can to take the problem. The same mistake I often see in some roleplayers.

What is the objective of ship design rules in a RPG? Is to provide ships, a powerful plot device to gaming sessions. In that case, what features are necessary to describe such ship? I would say that the number of passengers, cargo capability and speed of travel. Because conflict may be interresting, some combat stats should be provided, although it is of secondary importance. Why secondary importance? You can not assign things to do to all your players during ship combat (not all of them will have the necessary skills), and thus it is boring to those not participating. Furthermore, combat should be quick. Players will probably running a small ship that will be unable to sustain much damage. Therefore, the rules need only to address low intensity combat. Anyone have ever found a use for MT: Fighting ships of the Imperium in a roleplaying session? Give a quick look to HG, MT, FFS, or T4. What is the roleplaying use of knowning how much MW each subsystem will consume? Does this information come up during your gaming sessions? If yes, tell me, I am curious. Considering my views, I will point that the rules presented in Book 2 are the best starship design rules for a RPG I ever read.

There is another public to ship design rules. There are armchair designers who have fun designing ships and comparing their designs against their coleagues. I do believe that there is enough public to a complex ship design rules book. Being so, I would recommend FFE to publish one. However, I few points should be addressed. First, their needs are not of the roleplayers, and it appears that some of them don't perceive this clearly. Second, because of that, their design system does not need to be related to the roleplaying ship design. Book 2 and HG are not two approximations in different complexity levels of the same system. They are two independent systems. I have no problems with that. I would even say that this is desirable, as it would reduce the complexity of the basic design.

I think that T5 main rules should concern with typical roleplaying needs. If addditional sourcebooks want to detail those rules further, that is fine, as long as they concern theirselves with roleplaying issues. If not, as I believe is the case of a future FFS3, they don't have to be compatible with the main rules, as they will not be used in roleplaying anyway.

Best wishes,
Ron
 
Ron wrote
"I think that T5 main rules should concern with typical roleplaying needs. If addditional sourcebooks want to detail those rules further, that is fine, as long as they concern theirselves with roleplaying issues. If not, as I believe is the case of a future FFS3, they don't have to be compatible with the main rules, as they will not be used in roleplaying anyway."

I like adding details to my vehicle designs that will always be overlooked by a simple design system. These setails may dramatically raise or lower the price of the vehicle, and need a consistant reason to due so. What is the difference between a Ford, GM, Volvo, Mercedes, Yugo, or a Honda. Based on High Guard or Book 2 style rules these vehicles would have the same stats, but they are vastly different vehicles. I agree that for most roleplaying the make of vehicle would make little difference. But, in the games that I have been in, The players were all interested in adding things to thier ship that were not covered in Book 2 or High Guard, and only partially covered in MT.
I am all in favor of a simple design system, I will even help build the modules for it! But if you make the detailed design system incompatible with the simple design system then you are in effect saying
"Charles, we do NOT want you or anyone like you assisting in design work for this game."
Those of us that cannot find a gaming group, for whatever reason, do spend time designing equipment and then making it available to everyone else to use in thier games.

Charles H
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:
Well, here comes the opposite opinion. I do scientific research as a living. One of

[snip]

I think that T5 main rules should concern with typical roleplaying needs. If addditional sourcebooks want to detail those rules further, that is fine, as long as they concern theirselves with roleplaying issues. If not, as I believe is the case of a future FFS3, they don't have to be compatible with the main rules, as they will not be used in roleplaying anyway.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't disagree with you. The basic rules should concentrate on a simple (QSDS type) design system. This is perfectly adequate. However, what I was arguing is that the simple system should be developed from the complex system (even if the complex system is released later). Experiance with CT and T4 shows that its extremely difficult (almost impossible) to develop a complex system from a simple system, but that its easy to do it the other way round.
 
Since FF&S came out, I have had problems using even official designs. The rules have become so complicated that even people who are very familiar with them commit frequent errors. A few years after the release of TNE, I went back to High Guard because a number of the GDW house designs turned out to have errors, achieving high performance by leaving out some bit of required equipment. The only remedy I can see for this is a computerized ship-design system that will not permit vital systems to be forgotten.

-John

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crh:
Those of us that cannot find a gaming group, for whatever reason, do spend time designing equipment and then making it available to everyone else to use in thier games.

Charles H
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
There are a good mix of comments in here with some being very interesting in terms of using computers during play and some that just seem to be rehashing of a zillion TML posts on which ship design, task system or game version CT, MT, TNE or T4.

However, I have the opportunity for the first a**hole response.

If I am a CT or a Gurps traveller player why should I shell out my hard earned cash for yet another traveller system?

What is going to be so different?

What is the killer thing about the system that will warrant me chunking back the reprints or moving away from the Gurps line of play?

How are you expanding the genre of science fiction RPGs with this release?

Obviously, this is for Avery.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ACK!!:

If I am a CT or a Gurps traveller player why should I shell out my hard earned cash for yet another traveller system?

What is going to be so different?

What is the killer thing about the system that will warrant me chunking back the reprints or moving away from the Gurps line of play?

How are you expanding the genre of science fiction RPGs with this release?

Obviously, this is for Avery.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not Avery, but I will respond.
T5 is to be a more complete/modern system for those who want more in a game system than CT and do not feel right playing GURPS. It has been stated he that the CT reprints will be available well into the publication of T5, and Hunter has stated that there will be new and updated products released for CT. So for each his own. I would not write-off T5 completely, as the Milieu books should be useful for any version of Traveller (if for no other reason than to explain the history of the Imperium). Also, some of the other books should be useful with some conversion.

Just my .02Cr

Charles H
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crh:
I'm not Avery, but I will respond.
T5 is to be a more complete/modern system for those who want more in a game system than CT and do not feel right playing GURPS. It has been stated he that the CT reprints will be available well into the publication of T5, and Hunter has stated that there will be new and updated products released for CT. So for each his own. I would not write-off T5 completely, as the Milieu books should be useful for any version of Traveller (if for no other reason than to explain the history of the Imperium). Also, some of the other books should be useful with some conversion.

Just my .02Cr

Charles H
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not writing off T5 at all. In fact, I am very interested in it or I would not have registered and posted. There is a great deal of possibility in a new release of Traveller from the source so to speak.
First, there is the opportunity to cement what is truly god's truth so to speak on canon issues.

There is the opportunity to bring together information that has been only available by going to a variety of sources (GDW and Digest and the 'net and GURPS). From information about different aliens to gearhead issues like stats on various ships/vehicles/weapons back to historical information on the Imperium.

There is also the opportunity to update various sections of game mechanics possibly for new trends coming up in science fiction literature as pointed out in another post.

There is the opportunity to also include many resources in a CD grab-bag for use with Hunter's Grip software. I am talking about character sheets griplets maybe even a trial version of the GM software as well as the chance to include forms and other printable information the way the CT books included stuff for photocopying. Character generation and random encounter software and NPC stat generation software would be cool as well.

This brings me to the final point there is the opportunity with every new system to take role-playing to new level or focus on an aspect that needs attention.

That was what I was talking about.
 
Some notes:
$ for T5?: Because it's Traveller, damnit! Seriously, if T5 is good, I'll upgrade. I never went to GURPS/T:d20 systems because there was too much change in the fundamentals, making all my past data in need of a conversion. Now, you'll need GURPS players to convert their data....that's the bed that was made, folks, and T5 beter be good enough to warrant getting those GURPS players AND bringing back the 'Newer Systems' strays....

FFE vs High Guard vs Striker?: FFE was good because it A) gave added details for role-playing and B) allowed creation of all things. Striker did this, somewhat, but was never supported with published designs. However, it is a fact that the more work needed, the less people will do that work.

Complex vs Simple?: I never was comfortable with High Guards 30 minute turns, so one day I did out the combat probabilites of starships using pure Striker. I figured out the need for Firing sheaves (ala Artillery Ranging) is needing for such speeds/distances. I determined that you just keep firing all your guns, spreading the area of space with weapon fire, occasional getting hits. You know what? The numbers were roughly the same. Codes were the number of batteries firing, computers made up for the electronics, etc. Sometimes simple is simple because Avery and group have done the number-crunching already! All that was need was a sourcebook-like detailing of what went on in those numbers so a referee can describe it to his players in dynamic ways...instead of players thinking they sit on their butts for thirty minutes and press the fire button, then wait another thirty minutes....

IMHO,
Gats'
 
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