Underwhelmed

[tbeard1999]

Just read through version 1.0 of the playtest rules and was underwhelmed. Comments:

1. Random character generation is adequate, though no particular improvement over book 1 in my opinion. The survival probabilities in particular seem poorly considered. For instance, a Marine character who chooses Ground Assault as his specialty will survive on an 8+. This gives him a 7% chance of making it through 4 terms. A Marine in Support, OTOH, survives on a 4+, which gives him a 77% chance of making it through 4 terms. The problem is that both specialties offer essentially the same set of skills! The Ground Assault Marine can access Battle Dress and Flyer while the support Marine can access Comms, Drive and Mechanic. So a prudent player who wants to maximize his skills would choose Support over Ground Assault. Understand, I have no problem with Ground Assault being risky per se. Rather, I object to the fact that the higher risk translates into no significant benefit. I'm also not enthusiastic about a system that encourages multiple careers among player characters. I don't mind the option being there, but I hate the idea of encouraging it.

2. The skills list seems about right, size-wise.

3. Kudos to someone for figuring out that the 2d6 system will not support as many modifiers as previous versions of Traveller have had.

4. The TTSF (Traveller Task System Fetish [tm]) continues unabated. I find the Effect and Time dice to be especially annoying. To its credit, Mongoose gives us a simple binary "roll 8+ on 2d to succeed" system that will handle the vast majority of game issues. Unfortunately, the combat system requires use of the advanced system.

5. The combat sequence of play manages to combine the fussiness and pointless detail of GURPS-like systems with the vagueness and lack of substance of abstract combat systems. While I suppose I could design a less satisfying system, I would have to try pretty hard. Ick. Can't evaluate the damage system until stats for guns and armor are produced.

6. The point based character generation system is unsatisfactory but could be fixed pretty easily. Characters buy skills and attributes from the same points pool. The problem is that the attribute task roll modifiers are pretty coarse. So there's little reason to (say) take an INT of 8 rather than 6 -- the modifier is the same. This allows munchkinism to run rampant. In fact, just to exploit the system, I created a 40 point (4 term) character with a UPP of 777333. He has 17 skill levels and 6 skills at level 0. Jack of all trades costs the same as any other skill, so he has Level 3 in JoT of course. So he's dumb as a bucket of rocks and has a 3rd grade education, but is an amazing surgeon (Medic-5) and Engineer (Engineering-5). The fix is simple -- require (say) at least 40% points to be applied to attributes and 40% to skills or somesuch. And make JoT unavailable (or very expensive) for point-generated characters. Even better, completely separate attributes and skills.

I realize that this is a playtest document. But there are serious systemic flaws that should have been noticed IMHO before the playtest doc was created. The failure to do so does not fill me with confidence...

 

[gbooth]

Time and Effect dice

Just read through version 1.0 of the playtest rules and was underwhelmed. Comments:



4. The TTSF (Traveller Task System Fetish [tm]) continues unabated. I find the Effect and Time dice to be especially annoying. To its credit, Mongoose gives us a simple binary "roll 8+ on 2d to succeed" system that will handle the vast majority of game issues. Unfortunately, the combat system requires use of the advanced system.

QUOTE]

I find myself wary of the Effect and Time dice. My explicit objection to the time and effect dice is that in cases where a high number must be rolled to succeed, both dice will show high numbers for all successes. So, given a task where my skill is inadequate and/or the conditions are adverse such that I must roll a 12 to succeed, then if I do succeed I will do so splendidly and will take a very short time to do so.

Tom

 

[far-trader]

...

6. The point based character generation system is unsatisfactory but could be fixed pretty easily. Characters buy skills and attributes from the same points pool. The problem is that the attribute task roll modifiers are pretty coarse. So there's little reason to (say) take an INT of 8 rather than 6 -- the modifier is the same. This allows munchkinism to run rampant. In fact, just to exploit the system, I created a 40 point (4 term) character with a UPP of 777333. He has 17 skill levels and 6 skills at level 0. Jack of all trades costs the same as any other skill, so he has Level 3 in JoT of course. So he's dumb as a bucket of rocks and has a 3rd grade education, but is an amazing surgeon (Medic-5) and Engineer (Engineering-5). The fix is simple -- require (say) at least 40% points to be applied to attributes and 40% to skills or somesuch. And make JoT unavailable (or very expensive) for point-generated characters. Even better, completely separate attributes and skills.

Haven't had time to check it out but are you saying there is no (oh so simply Classic) a fix for this particular muchkin problem as the old Skill Levels limited to total of Int+Edu?

And I've always figured (old house rule) there should be a skill level max associated as well (no more than the controlling attribute/3). So the max skill level for your Medical and Engineering in the above would be 1 (limited by the Edu 3/3) for example imtu, ymmv.

 

[sablewyvern]

I find myself wary of the Effect and Time dice. My explicit objection to the time and effect dice is that in cases where a high number must be rolled to succeed, both dice will show high numbers for all successes. So, given a task where my skill is inadequate and/or the conditions are adverse such that I must roll a 12 to succeed, then if I do succeed I will do so splendidly and will take a very short time to do so.

Tom

IIRC, DMs apply to the result on the Effect Die, so if you need a 12 to succeed (DM-4) you'll be limited to an effect result of 2.

 

[Allensh]

Just read through version 1.0 of the playtest rules and was underwhelmed. Comments:



4. The TTSF (Traveller Task System Fetish [tm]) continues unabated. I find the Effect and Time dice to be especially annoying. To its credit, Mongoose gives us a simple binary "roll 8+ on 2d to succeed" system that will handle the vast majority of game issues. Unfortunately, the combat system requires use of the advanced system.

QUOTE]

I find myself wary of the Effect and Time dice. My explicit objection to the time and effect dice is that in cases where a high number must be rolled to succeed, both dice will show high numbers for all successes. So, given a task where my skill is inadequate and/or the conditions are adverse such that I must roll a 12 to succeed, then if I do succeed I will do so splendidly and will take a very short time to do so.

Tom

All modifiers that apply to the task roll also are subtracted from the effect die. So even if you roll high, your Effect number may be 1 or 2 (or even 0).

Allen

 

[Allensh]

Here's an actual incident that occured in a playtest game I ran.

Power Plant failure imminent! The characters were trying to land on a world and they needed to keep their plant going. They were four hours out from the mainworld. The character fixing the plant had Engineer (Power)-1. He rolled..a 6 and a 1. Fortunatley for him it was an Average task but they needed that plant fixed quick..because an enemy ship was bearing down on them. He chose the 1 as his Effect die. He made the roll because of his skill (his stat mod was +0) but because he chose speed over efficiency...the plant gave up the ghost permanently, cutting off the manuever drive, just as they were making their landing approach at the starport...and much fun ensued.

I like the Effect/Timing thing.

Allen

 

[tbeard1999]

Just read through version 1.0 of the playtest rules and was underwhelmed. Comments:



4. The TTSF (Traveller Task System Fetish [tm]) continues unabated. I find the Effect and Time dice to be especially annoying. To its credit, Mongoose gives us a simple binary "roll 8+ on 2d to succeed" system that will handle the vast majority of game issues. Unfortunately, the combat system requires use of the advanced system.

QUOTE]

I find myself wary of the Effect and Time dice. My explicit objection to the time and effect dice is that in cases where a high number must be rolled to succeed, both dice will show high numbers for all successes. So, given a task where my skill is inadequate and/or the conditions are adverse such that I must roll a 12 to succeed, then if I do succeed I will do so splendidly and will take a very short time to do so.

Tom

I hadn't considered that, but you're right. It's also a fussy and vexatious mechanic that adds very little to the game, but does manage to take time and energy.

--Ty

 

[Allensh]

Suggestions for the Combat system if you don't use the Effect/Timing system:

1. Roll 1d6 and add it to the weapon damage and other appropriate DMs.

2. Use a fixed amount (say, 3) rather than the Effect die.

Allen

 

[gbooth]

IIRC, DMs apply to the result on the Effect Die, so if you need a 12 to succeed (DM-4) you'll be limited to an effect result of 2.

Oh, that's different.

 

[gbooth]

I hadn't considered that, but you're right. It's also a fussy and vexatious mechanic that adds very little to the game, but does manage to take time and energy.

--Ty

It appears that I was not right. But one could judge how well or quickly a task is completed based upon the margin of sucess.

Tom

 

[sablewyvern]

I've seen a lot of people who had problems with the combat system who, upon actually running combats, found things flowed quite smoothly. While mileages will vary, the impression I get is that Timing and Effect work well in combat.

For other situations, I would only make use of Timing and Effect in time-critical tasks. Most of the time, a simple success/failure will suffice, or you can just take the high roll as a MoS; T&E thus becomes a tool to be used only when you want finer detail.

(All from the perspective of someone who hasn't actually played the game yet.)

 

[aramis]

We tried point buy characters after Thanksgiving dinner, and a little bit of a start RPing.

The task system so far has been quite well recieved.

We're all VERY leary of the damage system, tho. We're mostly grogs, and the damage system using only one stat REALLY bugs several of us before play.

CT and MT, damage directly affected your stats, and a character with no End to speak of couls still soak some damage if he was high-dex or high-Strength.

Take Zippy the Medic: CF3A84 Medical 4, Pistol 2, Steward 1...
In CT, he could be dropped by a single shot, but was unlikely to die from anything less than a heavy rifle.
In MT, he's even tougher, but will probably need medical attention EVERY fight.
In TNE, he's pretty midling, since several locations are con-based, but he's not entirely toasted by that low con, since Chest location is STR+CON IIRC.
T4 is CTish that way....

 

[sablewyvern]

We're all VERY leary of the damage system, tho. We're mostly grogs, and the damage system using only one stat REALLY bugs several of us before play.

CT and MT, damage directly affected your stats, and a character with no End to speak of couls still soak some damage if he was high-dex or high-Strength.

I've only played TNE, and that was so long ago I can't recall how damage worked, but...

Damage in MoTrav goes to END first, then STR or DEX, then the other of STR or DEX.

Going to 0 End means you are wounded (unconscious if you lose it all in one shot), and going to 0 End + 0 Str OR 0 Dex means you are unconscious.

That sounds a lot like the way you present the CT system working, in effect.

 

[Mytholder]

We tried point buy characters after Thanksgiving dinner, and a little bit of a start RPing.

The task system so far has been quite well recieved.

We're all VERY leary of the damage system, tho. We're mostly grogs, and the damage system using only one stat REALLY bugs several of us before play.

Reread the combat chapter - it uses all three stats, like CT.

 

[far-trader]

...That sounds a lot like the way you present the CT system working, in effect.

...Reread the combat chapter - it uses all three stats, like CT.

Except that the point (for the Doc above and other END lightweights) is that in RTT the first stat affected is always END while in CT it is random. So the Doc is out on the first hit (almost always) in RTT while in CT he has a 2 in 3 chance of standing long in any fight because he is both Strong and Dexterous.

Not saying it makes more sense or one is better, just pointing out the difference, that the two are not at all the same.

 

[Allensh]

Reread the combat chapter - it uses all three stats, like CT.

It does use all three stats. what I think is the issue for some here is that it always uses Endurance first. In CT, you rolled randomly to determine what stat is affected first (I think; maybe you just chose).

I have no problem at all with the idea of using Endurance first. In fact, I wish Traveller had a Lifeblood stat derived from the three stats but not even related to them personally...but this system works fine as is, with one caveat; I would ditch the "if he's reduced to 0 Endurance he's unconscious" bit and instittute instead a -2DM for actions while wounded.

Allen

 

[captainjack]

It does use all three stats. what I think is the issue for some here is that it always uses Endurance first. In CT, you rolled randomly to determine what stat is affected first (I think; maybe you just chose).

I have no problem at all with the idea of using Endurance first. In fact, I wish Traveller had a Lifeblood stat derived from the three stats but not even related to them personally...but this system works fine as is, with one caveat; I would ditch the "if he's reduced to 0 Endurance he's unconscious" bit and instittute instead a -2DM for actions while wounded.

Allen

In CT, you only rolled randomly for effected stat if this was the first wound of the encounter- the first shot/blood rule. Thereafter, the victim could allocate the damage (by dice, IIRC). Also, the damage from the second shot didn't roll over to a new stat - if you applied a 6 dam dice to a 1 stat, you went to 0 (w/. consequences) and the extra 5 points went away. On the first shot, it all had to be allocated.

So, no.... it isn't much different. You have a set vulnerability on the first shot, which may or be more realistic, and there's less player choice ("ah ha ! shot me in the STR again" says Mongo, "no prob !") which might be more realistic.

-Cap

 

[captainjack]

I hadn't considered that, but you're right. It's also a fussy and vexatious mechanic that adds very little to the game, but does manage to take time and energy.

--Ty
It appears that I was not right. But one could judge how well or quickly a task is completed based upon the margin of sucess.


Tom

To be honest, the above , and the misreading inspired complaints about the combat system (damage) makes me wonder if y'all are reading very closely before posting criticisms. Seriously, I know you are leery of this (as am I), but it at least it seems to deserve a more thoughtful read thru , and not just what seems to be jumping on the first perceived problem and posting it. If nothing else, it sure as heck deflates the value of later comments you may make...(not in MY eyes, obviously you are all Netgods in my book ) but its easy to dismiss even thoughtful comments from people who have a past history of complaining about rules which they haven't seem to have read.


My 2Cr, and not to be seen as a personal attack on anyone,please. Just some advice about critical writing.

-Cap

 

[aramis]

I hadn't read the second draft fully yet. I had read the first, and the attribute definitions made it clear in draft 1.0 that

Endurance: A character’s ability to sustain damage, stamina and determination. How much damage a character can sustain
is based on his Endurance score, so a character with a low Endurance score will be very vulnerable in a firefight.

Draft 2 reads exactly the same.

That the combat chapter contradicts this is something that needs to be pointed out. Which I'll do when I next send in a report.

 

[pendragonman]

Gotta love playtesting. Takes patience and focus to stay on track.