Using tweaked Cepheus advancement rules in CT

[nogoodnames01]

Hi everyone - this is mostly me talking out a potential house rule, but I'm interested in your opinions! I almost certainly missed something.

I've been running a CT game with a small group for a few months now, inspired in large part by the Out of the Box blog series and other notes on proto-Traveller. I'm mostly just using my pdf's of the original three LBB's, supplemented by the Cepheus vehicle design rules and (through a kludged spreadsheet generator) the star system generation rules in CT: Scouts, the JTAS medicine and first aid rules, and a touch of Rule 68A (posted here on the forums) for my side of the screen. We've had a great time playing more or less RAW.

All that to say! One sticking point we have run into is that picking up skills in CT is simultaneously too easy and way too hard. Immediately (or in the very short term) being able to pick up a boost to a skill just through practice feels incredibly strong, but requiring practice for four years to make that increase permanent is, well, punishing. Combine this with the inability to develop new skills, and it doesn't feel satisfying to me.

It has had some interesting effects on play. My group has been willing to hire on guards and porters, but once the full impact of the skill system became apparent they also became very interested in hiring a ships doctor (none of them have the medic skill above 1) and a ships steward (ditto steward).

What I'm eying is the Cepheus rules for advancement, which in contrast to CT, are pretty simple. Add up a characters total skills - to gain or improve a skill, add the level you're improving to to that total, and that generates the number of weeks needed to train. I'd tack on that a trainer (in graduating levels of intensity) is required - for skill 1, a small reference library and study schedule will do, but higher levels almost certainly require an actual tutor.

I see a few benefits here. First, picking up a working knowledge of a new skill is something I think any working professional as depicted in Traveller should be able to do - I'm a biologist by trade, but I've picked up Watercraft-1 and Medic-1 through training in boating and first aid certifications over the past few year. It also gives lower skill characters - like a friends PC who mustered out with bribery-1 at age 22 - a bit of a niche, where they start out with no specialization and instead quickly develop one in play. It's also, frankly, quite a bit less book keeping than timing eight years worth of practice.

My concern is that it will lead to immediate skill bloat that will deform the PC's skills away from the norm of a typical trav skillset and make them individually far superior to NPC's (which I usually just snag from 1001 characters/COTI). I also worry that it could lead to relatively low skill PC's becoming doctors over a very short period of time - for example, a quick dry run with a skill total 3 guy has him going from Medic-0 to Medic 3 in about a semesters worth of dedicated study. That isn't what I want.

So I'm thinking of using the following ruleset to replace the rules in book 2:
-Total of all a characters skills generates the base training time.
-A new skill is gained at 0, and must be improved from there.
-Learning a new skill or improving a skill takes the BTT+the new skill level (0 for new), and requires training materials appropriate to the level of skill, likely requiring a purchase or hiring a tutor.
-The same skill cannot be improved consecutively. Further, a skill must be actively used in stressful real life situations before it can be improved again.
-I'll probably tack on picking up languages using this system, with 0 being base competency, 1 being accented-fluent, 2 being fully fluent, etc.

So looking at our BTT 3 guy again, now he starts at paramedic school and spends 3 weeks getting Medic-0, another 3 weeks picking up admin-0, then after a harrowing exam involving the simulated treatment of an accident victim he spends another 4 weeks picking up Medic-1. This feels a lot more like a natural development cycle to me.

Anyhow! What do y'all think? I'm not saying this is perfect (I think I'll actually sort of miss the incentive to hire people the old system gave), but I think it'll be serviceable, at least!

 

[Adam Dray]

I've been toying with some rules about quasi-advancement of skills, too.

I like to think of it as a very specific "Jack of All Trades" skill, applied to one topic of learning.

For example, you spend all of your free time shadowing the engineer on the ship, trying to learn what you can about fixing the M-drive and other mechanical systems. You get Jack of M-Drives +1. It offsets your -3 penalty by +1 in the specific case of working on M-Drives, and only when it's in situations much like the one you learned in (similar kind of ship, etc.).

A month gets you to Jack +1. Two more months gets you to Jack +2. Three more months gets you to Jack +3.

Jack +3 offsets the -3 penalty entirely, so you're at skill level 0, but it's not the same as having a 0 because the Jack specialty is limited to similar circumstances as you learned, where a true 0 skill is not.

Jack of M-Drives +3 learned on a Far Trader would let you try to do some basic M-Drive work on a small starship as if you had Engineering/M-Drives 0. Get on a much bigger ship, and suddenly everything is different, and it's as if you have no M-Drive knowledge at all.

And then, somehow, all of this should make it easier to actually learn more quickly at a skill you've Jacked, so you can really get it to 0 in a shorter time than if you started from scratch.

 

[nogoodnames01]

I've been toying with some rules about quasi-advancement of skills, too.

I like to think of it as a very specific "Jack of All Trades" skill, applied to one topic of learning.

For example, you spend all of your free time shadowing the engineer on the ship, trying to learn what you can about fixing the M-drive and other mechanical systems. You get Jack of M-Drives +1. It offsets your -3 penalty by +1 in the specific case of working on M-Drives, and only when it's in situations much like the one you learned in (similar kind of ship, etc.).

A month gets you to Jack +1. Two more months gets you to Jack +2. Three more months gets you to Jack +3.

Jack +3 offsets the -3 penalty entirely, so you're at skill level 0, but it's not the same as having a 0 because the Jack specialty is limited to similar circumstances as you learned, where a true 0 skill is not.

Jack of M-Drives +3 learned on a Far Trader would let you try to do some basic M-Drive work on a small starship as if you had Engineering/M-Drives 0. Get on a much bigger ship, and suddenly everything is different, and it's as if you have no M-Drive knowledge at all.

And then, somehow, all of this should make it easier to actually learn more quickly at a skill you've Jacked, so you can really get it to 0 in a shorter time than if you started from scratch.

I like that! It does sort of get at a bit more book keeping than I was aiming for, but I love the effect! It gives folks without a current training option the ability to do something even if they're short training materials.

 

[AsenRG]

I'd say that depends on what the skills are meant to represent. It is my understanding that Classic Traveller skills are meant to be broader, like the Careers in Barbarians of Lemuria, while Cepheus Engine skills are more narrow, like skills in GURPS.
If the skills are broader, it's only logical that they'd need more time to be mastered.

 

[Adam Dray]

I like the system you posted. It's simple and workable and I think it solves the problems you raised.

I'd make it harder to learn a skill when there's no one around to help you learn it, and you don't have any related skills.

Learning a new specialty of engineering from books or tinkering when you already have Engineering/J-Drive 1, or learning Sophontology when you already have Medicine 2 -- that seems like it should be quicker and possible without a teacher or mentor.

 

[kilemall]

MgT/CE skill advancement is too easy IMO, leads to skill bloat, and just doesn't jibe with what it takes in the real world for higher levels of skill.

Part of the point of limited skills is exactly your party's reaction- to get critical specialists and work in teams.

But that skill advancement process can be tough, no doubt.

Don't overlook that sabbatical option from the LBBs- pretty powerful to pick a skill-2, use it during chargen.

I've been working up some standard service academy/college/2 year tech/prep schools for chargen purposes.

Finally, the other option that is not too out there and is part of the CT ruleset is LBB4+ Instruction.

It is oriented towards weeks rather then years, but has limits in that it's about 50/50 whether you get the skill after any given session (so on average figure two sessions, which stretches into months), and the Instructor has to have the skill level of both Instruction and the taught skill.

Pretty easy to get Skill-1 training, not easy to get a Skill-2 instructor, and higher levels practically require a legendary teacher at some spacedojo or tech temple or the like.

 

[nogoodnames01]

I like the system you posted. It's simple and workable and I think it solves the problems you raised.

I'd make it harder to learn a skill when there's no one around to help you learn it, and you don't have any related skills.

Learning a new specialty of engineering from books or tinkering when you already have Engineering/J-Drive 1, or learning Sophontology when you already have Medicine 2 -- that seems like it should be quicker and possible without a teacher or mentor.

I agree, but I worry a little that we could get into the weeds here. Engineering makes total sense, particularly if you have an active drive to experiment on while reading the manuals. Same if, say, you have Medic-2 and say the Referee introduces a new skill for a bizarre alien species medicine - you've already got those principles of medicine (diagnosis, triage, etc) down as a framework to build on top of.

I'm comfortable saying that you just can't train a skill if you don't have the resources to do it. You might be able to pick up the specifics of your situation (e.g., your Jack-of-M-drives idea), but that isn't guaranteed either. Nobody is going to learn drive engineering while stranded on a TL 3 world where they don't speak the language and have no books on the subject - or if they do, we're talking about Einstein level innovation in the sciences, which is well outside the purview of Traveller, I think! I think to keep it simple you just shake on a good healthy helping of "the referee will determine what materials are required" and a solid set of general guidelines, and keeping in mind that Skill-3 seems to be about the level of someone who is a serious specialized practitioner of the skill - doctors, professors, etc.

If we wanted to slow skills down even more, you might add the square of the new level to the BTT. So our example paramedic spends a month picking up, say, Carouse-0 (a great college skill, IMO), then hits the books again. In the original interpretation he'd need to spend six weeks studying to hit Medic-2, with the square rule in place it'd instead take 8. Then when he comes around again for Medic-3 (presuming he doesn't take any other skills), it'll be 14 weeks of study (vs 8 under the original take on things). I dunno! This might be a bit too punishing for picking up higher skill levels, but I think it'd be about right for reflecting the difficulty of becoming genuinely great at something (and keep people from beelining to Shotgun-3 ).

All of this is also presuming the usual rhythym of Traveller adventures, where you have a week on planet taking jobs/pursuing trade (where no training occurs), then a week in jumpspace (which allows for training). Sticking on the caveat that periods of training must allow for at least 8 hours of study daily and be at a certain lifestyle level (nobody has time to study when you're starving!) seem to make sense, and will help if my group is laid up for a month or two planetside someplace and decide to spend their time picking up skills.

 

[nogoodnames01]

OK, I made a few tweaks that slowed things down a bit!

First, base training time is equal to the number of skills+total of skills. This slows down folks who sprawl into having a bunch of skills at 0 while also capping folks that just go down a single path.

Second, I increased the contribution of skill level from a simple level of the skill to the skills level cubed. This makes picking up level 0 or 1 fairly straightforward, but higher skills slow down enormously. I'm very pleased with this number, as hitting skill level 5 will take something like 250 weeks of training in total, which approaches the 10,000 hour mark commonly picked out as the amount of time it takes to master a skill.

Third, I included limits on consecutive weeks trained (basically after 5 weeks of training you have to take 1 week off) and motivation (functionally, if a training isn't benefiting your job or filling a need [e.g., learning first aid because you saw your buddy get shot and couldn't do anything], you need to make a throw a'la the one made for physical training).

Finally, after training or improving a skill, you can't improve it again until you've improved a different skill AND the original skill has been used under some kind of duress. Sure you've got Navigate-1, but unless you actually go chart some jumps you're never going to learn enough to qualify for Navigate-2.

I ran a quick example (see the quote below) and I think it worked out. If this were happening in a game I probably would have called for motivation rolls

Buck is an ex-Marine at age 22, stats 79A6B4, Cutlass 1, Tactics 1, Rifle 1. His BTT is 6, as 1+1+1=3, and he has three total skills.

He decides he wants to pick up some first aid after a friend is badly wounded and he finds himself helpless. He purchases a book on first aid for a few credits, then adds his BTT of 6 to 0^3 and finds that he must spend six weeks training to gain Medic-0 and discovers he has a strong interest in medicine. His BTT increases to 7 (as his skill count went up to 4).

As part of his job he’s required to pick up some skill in vacsuits, and spends seven weeks training to gain Vacsuit-0, increasing his BTT to 8. During this training he treats a coworkers injuries sustained when an oxygen tank blew and smashed the mans facemask.

He leaves that job shortly thereafter, and then decides to continue studying medicine and signs up for a correspondence course through a local university (1,000 credits). His BTT of 8 is added to his new skill rank of 1^3 and he spends nine weeks completing an intensive course in emergency medicine. Buck now finds himself employable as a paramedic.

He impulsively signs up for a medical training program, but finds that he’ll need to fill in classes in Electronics to get his certificate. He takes his new BTT of 9 and spends nine weeks picking up Electronics 0.

With that done, he is finally able to dedicate himself to furthering his medical skills. He pays 5,000 credits to the school and lives on campus full time. Even with that, his new BTT of 10 is added to 2^3 and he finds it will take 18 weeks of study. Since this is more than 10 weeks of consecutive study, Buck elects to take 9 weeks of classes, enjoy a break, and then finish his final 9 weeks of study. He completes the certificate with Medic-2.

Buck now has: Medic-2, Cutlass 1, Tactics 1, Rifle 1, Vacsuit 0, Electronics 0 and a BTT of 11. His entire course of study has taken 49 weeks, nearly a year!

A year of nonstop training to pick up two skills at 0 and one at 2 seems about right. Most employers are not going to spring for this level of training and education - I'd ballpark even a relatively generous job (say, the army) as allocating perhaps 1/4 of employee time to training, and private sector jobs significantly less. This brings Buck back to earth and has him picking up these skills over the course of four years, with his studying taking place primarily between deployments. Since a typical career in Traveller will dispense one to three skills over four years of training, this seems about right.

This does mean that Travellers, with their usual week on-week off during a jump schedule have more time than most people to gain new skills, but I'm alright with that! Sailors in the 17th century were often scrimshaw or woodworkers or had other skills, after all.

Finally, while it's true that a PC with 500,000 credits might plop down in a comfy mansion to spend a few years learning a skill, it's going to take throws to do it and stay motivated! Probably with a penalty for all that junk food he'll inevitably be eating, too! That, and a cunning ref isn't going to stop rolling for encounters, patrons, and other complications! I feel like it still preserves the need to go hiring and play as a team, if only because picking up a skill at 1 is going to take most characters months of study, and higher skills will take exponentially longer.

 

[exedore6]

I've been running a CT game with a small group for a few months now, inspired in large part by the Out of the Box blog series and other notes on proto-Traveller. I'm mostly just using my pdf's of the original three LBB's, supplemented by the Cepheus vehicle design rules and (through a kludged spreadsheet generator) the star system generation rules in CT: Scouts, the JTAS medicine and first aid rules, and a touch of Rule 68A (posted here on the forums) for my side of the screen. We've had a great time playing more or less RAW.

I'm assuming you're talking about JTAS-11. If so, what are you treating as the 'light wound' threshold? The rarity of Medic-1, combined with what amounts to a death sentence (50/50 get worse, 1/36 chance of dying outright every hour) for untreated injuries always struck me as insane.

Regarding advancement, one cool thing about the RAW advancement system (where you can specify 2 skills, and after 8 years, you've got both at +1, is that it maps to the 1 skill/term unless something special happens (much like chargen).

I don't like the difficulty needed to get from Unskilled to Skill-1 though (and the Skill-0 is not to be a pathway to Skill-1). To me, that's the piece that's missing.

 

[exedore6]

Depending on how you interpret JoT (and multiple instances of it), consider allowing a character to trade several Skill-0 to JoT.

 

[nogoodnames01]

I'd say that depends on what the skills are meant to represent. It is my understanding that Classic Traveller skills are meant to be broader, like the Careers in Barbarians of Lemuria, while Cepheus Engine skills are more narrow, like skills in GURPS.
If the skills are broader, it's only logical that they'd need more time to be mastered.

I agree with this - for example, Vacc-1 isn't just driving a vacc suit, it's knowing how to fix one, use one, fit one, how to maneuver in one, etc. I agree with you on that - while I loved the elegance of skill total=weeks of training in MGT, I think it's too fast. Even the system I'm tinkering with is probably too fast. I'm tinkering with some ideas to slow it down.

One method I'm considering is making the weeks required (skill total+total skills)*2+new rank^3. This slows down even a profligate skill-trainer - someone literally doing nothing but picking skills up at rank 0 - to around 3 skills a year of training, which if we eyeball that halving or quartering based on travelling or having a job, translates to a practical maximum of three skills in a term (totally possible with many careers) and a more likely practical maxima of 1.5 skills per term.

MgT/CE skill advancement is too easy IMO, leads to skill bloat, and just doesn't jibe with what it takes in the real world for higher levels of skill.

Part of the point of limited skills is exactly your party's reaction- to get critical specialists and work in teams.

But that skill advancement process can be tough, no doubt.

Don't overlook that sabbatical option from the LBBs- pretty powerful to pick a skill-2, use it during chargen.

I've been working up some standard service academy/college/2 year tech/prep schools for chargen purposes.

Finally, the other option that is not too out there and is part of the CT ruleset is LBB4+ Instruction.

It is oriented towards weeks rather then years, but has limits in that it's about 50/50 whether you get the skill after any given session (so on average figure two sessions, which stretches into months), and the Instructor has to have the skill level of both Instruction and the taught skill.

Pretty easy to get Skill-1 training, not easy to get a Skill-2 instructor, and higher levels practically require a legendary teacher at some spacedojo or tech temple or the like.

The instructor skill is, IMO, too rare. Especially because I'm not using Mercenary or the careers in it, and it really doesn't work when you've suddenly got to have legendary space-dojo masters running all the medical schools...

I'm assuming you're talking about JTAS-11. If so, what are you treating as the 'light wound' threshold? The rarity of Medic-1, combined with what amounts to a death sentence (50/50 get worse, 1/36 chance of dying outright every hour) for untreated injuries always struck me as insane.

Regarding advancement, one cool thing about the RAW advancement system (where you can specify 2 skills, and after 8 years, you've got both at +1, is that it maps to the 1 skill/term unless something special happens (much like chargen).

I don't like the difficulty needed to get from Unskilled to Skill-1 though (and the Skill-0 is not to be a pathway to Skill-1). To me, that's the piece that's missing.

Yeah, I'm using a tweaked version of JTAS-11 and treating being within 2 points of 0 in a stat as lightly wounded. I'm omitting the instant death chance and keeping the 50/50 worsening bit. This may be in part due to my background (I have a tiny bit of wilderness first aid under my belt) but most injuries that are bad enough to register on the CT scale are the kind that - IMO - you need to see a real medic for. This colors the narration - we're not talking about bumps and scrapes when your str goes from 7 to 2, but concussions, serious lacerations, broken fingers/ribs, etc. My party has been relatively reluctant to get into a fight - they went on a hunting trip that got one of their guards mauled by a giant baboon-alligator-thing on a low tech planet, which has prompted a pretty epic rescue mission and the conviction that they're hiring a full time doctor when they have the cash) - but no real gunfights. I may change my tune once I see how a real firefight shakes out on the table.

I do very much agree that hitting skill 0 is the shaky bit. My personal feeling is that Travellers should be picking up 2 skill ranks every four years or so - that's what the scout picks up, and I'd argue that most travellers lead lives at least as intense, dangerous, and punctuated by free training time as most scouts...

Depending on how you interpret JoT (and multiple instances of it), consider allowing a character to trade several Skill-0 to JoT.

I like keeping JOT a skill exclusive to chargen, at least for this system. The one PC that rolled up JOT twice in chargen I allowed to reroll the skill, but he died later in chargen anyhow. Maybe I'll allow the reverse - if you have JOT 1 already and get it again in chargen, you can switch it out for 2-3 rank 0 skills.

 

[nogoodnames01]

I'll stop multiposting soon, promise. :coffeegulp:

Running some quick math, I think the numbers as they stand work. (skill total+total skills)+new level cubed with the caveat that you can't train the same skill consecutively works out to seven years of nonstop training to hit skill 5, assuming no problems in procuring instructors, training materials, dangerous situations to hone your skills, and also omitting the 6 months (!!!) of breaks the house rules would also require. By the time this hypothetical super-doctor finished his studies, he'd have a BTT of 17, so snagging a skill-0 training will take him a whopping 4 1/4 months.

This is also assuming he's making throws to keep studying through all this (I think most people, even professionals, probably tap out at skill-3 and diversify into admin or liason) and does nothing but train. Even a traveller given such favorable conditions would take fourteen years to reach these heights. This is in contrast to the RAW, where it'd take around 40 years to cement such a vast increase.

 

[exedore6]

Yeah, I'm not too sure about my JoT idea either - like I said, it definitely depends on what JoT 2 or 3 give someone. If you're playing a character who's been everywhere, and tried everything, at some point it makes sense to trade the kludge of Skill-0 in for JoT.

With healing, maybe take the halfway point on stats (where you'd be if you were knocked out, also the line that Marooned set) as the light wound/will heal line. Because while a 'real injury' needs real treatment, plenty of injuries don't need skilled treatment or diagnosis. You just have a black eye for a while, enough to slow you down maybe, but show up to an ER with it, and they won't be happy with you. Ive had basic instruction in first aid (think Red Cross first aid). There's no way I'm Medic-1 (as I'd interpret it), but there are a lot of injuries that I'd be able to handle well enough for a full recovery. (Though if you wanted me to stitch you up, you'd want to practice on a chicken or pork shoulder first). You probably wouldn't bleed to death, and if I had antibiotics, you'd probably be fine.

 

[exedore6]

Sorry for also double posting, but I just looked at something.

The instruction skill takes 6 weeks or 6 months to administer. 9+ if get it.

That comes to a mean time of 5 months to learn a skill if you're doing nothing but training. 2.6 years if you're doing other stuff.

 

[kilemall]

Sorry for also double posting, but I just looked at something.

The instruction skill takes 6 weeks or 6 months to administer. 9+ if get it.

That comes to a mean time of 5 months to learn a skill if you're doing nothing but training. 2.6 years if you're doing other stuff.

Exactly, it's a little faster then LBB1 default, but not a cakewalk.

OP, the average doctor would have the benefit of getting to Medic-1 with premed-instructors and possibly Medic-2 in medical school, but they would have to learn the last part on the job in a more conventional manner to get Medic-3, DocDojo being a rare thing.

But your cubed formula is certainly a lot more workable then most of the published defaults.

Don't forget to have a cost structure to skill acquisition with your system, and watch this space for when I post my school rules.

I already posted a few months ago about plugging LBB4+ skills into LBB1/S4 chargen. Instruction is one of those must-haves most careers can get.

 

[AsenRG]

I agree with this - for example, Vacc-1 isn't just driving a vacc suit, it's knowing how to fix one, use one, fit one, how to maneuver in one, etc. I agree with you on that - while I loved the elegance of skill total=weeks of training in MGT, I think it's too fast. Even the system I'm tinkering with is probably too fast. I'm tinkering with some ideas to slow it down.

Well, maybe there should be different skills for "things you have worked with and know inside and out", and "things you have learned to do well, but that might not be part of who you are". It's like the difference between a skill that's named "Served As A Gunner" 1, which gives you knowledge of military life, repairing the big guns, contacts, and so on, and "Gunnery-1", which only means you've hanged in a simulator long enough to know how to shoot the ship's gun...
Of course, they might even co-exist in the same system, but would need different rates of acquisition.

 

[exedore6]

It's like the difference between a skill that's named "Served As A Gunner" 1, which gives you knowledge of military life, repairing the big guns, contacts, and so on, and "Gunnery-1", which only means you've hanged in a simulator long enough to know how to shoot the ship's gun...

That's what the difference between Skill-0 and Skill-1 is all about, isn't it?

 

[AsenRG]

That's what the difference between Skill-0 and Skill-1 is all about, isn't it?

I wouldn't say so, no. To me, the difference between Skill-0 and Skill-1 is between "I don't make major mistakes, so I can compare our abilities", and "my practice is actually helping me to be equal to people with better physical qualities", but ultimately, they're the same skills.

The difference between the two kinds of skills that I'm suggesting is more like between "I'm a fighter" and "I have fighting skills with weapons X, Y, Z".