Vilani creationists

[Agemegos]

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Join Date: May 2005
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Default Vilani creationists
I've just been reading the notes in Supplement 8 on the effect on Vilani progress in biology of the fact that Vilani found themselves unrelated to the rest of the creatures on Vland.

It seems to me that without the medical impetus to biology that the Vilani might have been slow to discover evolution at all. And when they did, biologists would have had a very hard time making the case that humans were no exception: both of the best pieces of evidence for human evolution are lacking on Vland. The position that plants and 'animals' might have evolved, but the humans were a special creation would have been intellectually respectable among the Vilani (and other races of Humaniti that rose out of obscurity on worlds other than Earth). When astronomers discovered the nature of the stars, and established the existence of extra-vloid habitable planets the proposition that humans had evolved on some other planet, and then travelled or been brought to Vland must have occurred to some, but hypothesising ancients of a lost interstellar technology is no more parsimonious then hypothesising a special supernatural creation. The first strong evidence that the Vilani find that Humaniti has evolved is either the slightly divergent characteristics of different strains of mankind on different planets or obscure evidence in the human genome.

Until the Vilani come to Terra to see pre-human fossils and to discover apes, primates, mammals, chordates, Animals, and eucaryotes, it must have been a defensible intellectual position among the Vilani and other non-Solomani Humaniti to believe that humans were a separate creation of the Divine. And Vargr, too.

Little wonder, then, that Solomani claims to have evolved on Terra didn't get much traction in establishing any sort of Solomani superiority: "You may be descended from an ape, mate, but I don't see that that makes you better than me."

 

[far-trader]

Well, 20 views and no posts. No flames or trip to The Pit either which I half suspected based on the header :smirk:

Anyway, I'll duplicate my reply to the SJG forum thread of the same, maybe kick the topic back to life here...

...I may be forgetting my ancient Vilani texts but didn't they know they were "chosen ones" from way back? As evidenced by serving the Ancients and actually being on hand for the whole family feud and witness to the galactic destruction it wrought? Wasn't it this that drove the impetus to reach for the stars (we came from there and once travelled across the gulfs). And that's why they got there so far ahead of us on Terra and just about everywhere else?

 

[aramis]

Yes, it is quite logical that they might see it as proof. Then again, the few endemic biotia carried along with humans are likely also present and would thus result in being seen as divine wrath.

A staff infection would thus be quite likely seen as divine punishment for some sin...

Interesting approach. Logical.

 

[Plankowner]

Sounds very reasonable to me. The Vargr and the Vilani both have strong reasons to believe they are Divinely created.

Other sub-species of Humaniti may not have gone quite that far. While there may not have been a direct evolutionary link between themselves and the animals on their "homeworld" by implication, the other worlds were more human friendly than Vland was. There is no mention in the Darrian book that they had trouble digesting the plants and animals of Darrian like the Vilani had with the native life on Vland, so Vland could be considered the exception rather than the rule of what type of compatability existed between the local life forms and the humans there.

It must have been a HUGE blow to the Vilani ego to find out that they were NOT divinely created, but just transplanted from somewhere else.

Vilani mythology probably mixes the Ancients and their concept of God quite a bit. Mono-theism may not have developed, or it might be very common with Grandfather filling that roll. So Grandfather's children would be the "fallen Angels" to continue the analogy, but it probably shouldn't be taken too far.

 

[dean]

A staff infection would thus be quite likely seen as divine punishment for some sin...

Interesting approach. Logical.

Staph, as in staphylococcus.

At the same time, it's entirely possible that there would be mircoflora and microfauna endemic to Vland that would cause serious illness even in non-related biology. As long as the conditions inside or on the human body were condusive to growth and reproduction for those organisms, they'd colonize.

 

[far-trader]

Re my post above it seems I may be conflating Vilani back history with the Geonee. So no worries. Except for some Vilani myths about giant killer war robots

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Staph, as in staphylococcus.

At the same time, it's entirely possible that there would be mircoflora and microfauna endemic to Vland that would cause serious illness even in non-related biology. As long as the conditions inside or on the human body were condusive to growth and reproduction for those organisms, they'd colonize.

Ordinarily this would be very true; but in the case of the Vilani the native biosphere is explicitly described as being so alien to human physiology that even things like surgery and deep wounds are fairly unproblematic issues, at least as far as potential infection is concerned.

I always wondered if this wouldn't make them particularly prone to allergies, however.

 

[Maladominus]

Well, 20 views and no posts. No flames or trip to The Pit either which I half suspected based on the header :smirk:

The topic subject is actually most appropriate. And the OP's rationale is quite sensible. Early Vilani civilization would most certainly tend towards a Creationism point of view/philosophy. After all, it was apparent to them that "Mankind was simply planted on our world of Vland; vastly different from the rest of the fauna and flora of Vland. Who put us here? Surely it must be some omnipotent all-powerful Divinity (or Divinities) from the heavens and stars above."

However, early Vilani philosophy and mythology would also be influenced by.... those remnants of the GIANT ROBOTS (Ancients leftovers). What would the early Vilani think of the role of these giant robots? Were they some 'Mechanical Stewards' of the Gods Above? Were they demon-minions sent down to afflict and terrorize the people below?

 

[dean]

Ordinarily this would be very true; but in the case of the Vilani the native biosphere is explicitly described as being so alien to human physiology that even things like surgery and deep wounds are fairly unproblematic issues, at least as far as potential infection is concerned.

I always wondered if this wouldn't make them particularly prone to allergies, however.

Most of the problems we humans have with infection are directly related to the organisms that we carry with us all the time. Staphylococcus aureas is one just such organism that we all have living on our skin, pretty much as soon as we're exposed to the environment outside the womb (mom). Escherichia coli is happy to just survive in our intestines until conditions change enabling it to multiply and take over, giving us some very serious medical problems.

And, we can just assume the ancients wiped out the body's microfauna, as we need some of them to help us do things like produce vitamin K and digest complex carbohydrates.

Viruses, OTOH, we could completely lose and be much better off, and to my knowledge they just don't have any benefits at all.

Of course, if the Vlani life is based off a completely different set of rules (no DNA, for example) then what you say is likely true to setting (and I haven't looked at the rules/background info on the Vlani in a loooong time), but if that's the case it'd be really difficult to support the idea that the planet was habitable by humans in the first place (we are quite delicate creatures, you know).

But, this is Traveller, the game, not Reality, the life, so I guess I can live with that.

 

[Agemegos]

And, we can just assume the ancients wiped out the body's microfauna, as we need some of them to help us do things like produce vitamin K and digest complex carbohydrates.

You remind me of a piece I read in the New Scientist some years ago. Genetic engineers had produced a strain of the bacteria that form dental plaque which lacked the genes necessary to produce the acid that erodes tooth enamel. Their plan was to produce an inoculum that you put in a baby's mouth when it's first tooth erupts. This should proliferate in the mouth, filling the niche that caries-producing bacteria normally occupy, and consume all the food that would normally support them.

A science-fiction writer immediately extrapolates to genetically-engineered systems of nasal, intestinal, and skin flora that are stripped of the genes that enable them to switch into pathogenic mode: E. coli that can't eat fascia, H. pylori that can't colonise the stomach, S. aureus that lack the genetic programs to flourish in wounds, and everything else that goes with them.

Following the obvious line of speculation a little furhter, we get to oral flora that can't produce halitosis, skin flora that break down sweat and scurf to scentless or perfumed metabolites.

The Vilani might not just have been nearly free of infectious diseases. They might also have been sweet-smelling: to Ancient/droyne noses, anyway.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

A staff infection would thus be quite likely seen as divine punishment for some sin...

Staph, as in staphylococcus.

Ummm, no. I think (given Vilani bureaucracy - only the Bwaps exceed their propensity for that) a "staff" infection is about right........

And, we can just assume the ancients wiped out the body's microfauna....

You meant "can't", right?

The Vilani might not just have been nearly free of infectious diseases. They might also have been sweet-smelling: to Ancient/droyne noses, anyway.

Well, what happened? They sure don't smell that way now...... :smirk:

 

[Plankowner]

The Vilani must have had a VERY rude awakening when they travelled to the first planet with a more Terran-normal biology. You think the North American Native Americans had it bad with diseases that they were not prepared for, imagine what happened to the early Vilani explorers.

Maybe that is why they don't mind so much using Black War tactics. Nuke the biosphere and replace it with something that doesn't cause them to sneeze!

 

[Maladominus]

The Vilani must have had a VERY rude awakening when they travelled to the first planet with a more Terran-normal biology. You think the North American Native Americans had it bad with diseases that they were not prepared for, imagine what happened to the early Vilani explorers.

Maybe that is why they don't mind so much using Black War tactics. Nuke the biosphere and replace it with something that doesn't cause them to sneeze!

GURPS Traveller supplement Rim of Fire..... *hints* the possibility that the Terran Confederation used bio-warfare (quietly letting loose Terran bacteria, viruses, and other microbes) as one way that the Vilani colonial worlds were decimated (many in the Rim Province had Vilani populations of billions by the time Earth discovered jump drive). With the Vilani colonial worlds having major outbreaks of plagues, the theory is that this helped to cripple Vilani support for the war. It allowed the Terrans to come in with little resistance.

GURPS only hints at this possibility. They do not claim that the Terrans actually did it. There is no clear evidence that Terrans meant to do this. Altho it is possible that the initial Terran-Vilani contacts (ambassador meeting ambassador) would have introduced a host of diseases and pathogens to the Vilani race.... altho this was probably unintentional.

 

[dean]

The Vilani must have had a VERY rude awakening when they travelled to the first planet with a more Terran-normal biology. You think the North American Native Americans had it bad with diseases that they were not prepared for, imagine what happened to the early Vilani explorers.

Maybe that is why they don't mind so much using Black War tactics. Nuke the biosphere and replace it with something that doesn't cause them to sneeze!

This is I think the most important thing to acknowledge if we are prepared to have Vilani humaniti free from pathogenetic microorganisms. If their biota was infact engineered to make them free from disease, and on the presumption that most other planets that are human-hibitable are more terran like in their ecology (a good assumption, as Traveller does not posit that new worlds are treated with kid gloves due to the risk of new infectious diseases being exported), then they'd have a devil of a time colonizing those worlds due to infection issues (think War of the Worlds here).

At the same time, I am not so sure that it would necessarily happen that way, because once the ancients leave the Vilani, those modified bacteria would happily live through a few hundred quadrillion generations, and evolve and mutate new capabilities that would make them pathenogenic (bird flu, anyone?) once again to the Vilani.

 

[Agemegos]

At the same time, I am not so sure that it would necessarily happen that way, because once the ancients leave the Vilani, those modified bacteria would happily live through a few hundred quadrillion generations, and evolve and mutate new capabilities that would make them pathenogenic (bird flu, anyone?) once again to the Vilani.

Good point. Bodily flora that have been stripped of their pathogenic capabilities are under the same pressure to evolve them anew that natural bodily biota were under to evolve those capacities in the first place (whatever those were). It might have been possible to make it hard for such genetic programs to develop, but it won't have been easy to make it impossible. So you have to suppose that being left without maintenance for hundreds of millennia those cultures will might have recovered the capacity to exploit pathogenic opportunities.

 

[aramis]

The Duskiir Plague is canonical; first appearance is in the Traveller edition of Imperium (TBG1)... it also is mentioned in several other products.

Duskiir was hit with a terran virus... and was thought intentional biowarfare.

 

[kafka47]

Canon establishes that the Vilani believed in a multiplicity of gods (who were in fact Ancients & Ancient warmachines). The more superstitious probably still believe in those gods to this day.

However, when Vilani ventured to the Stars and encountered other human records both in the fossil record and in living civilizations, they believed themselves to be the Ancients and the progenetor race. Squaring it with Vland's native life was a problem but if you think like a Vilani then you can make the facts stick that evolution skipped a few stages.

Then they met the Genoese who proclaimed themselves to be the Ancients. Only then would their theory of uniqueness be challenged by the hard fact of not having Jump Drive. Cructal to defeating the Genoese claim would be the discovery of a Garden World in which the real Ancients populated with all the flora & fauna of Terra. Canon has established this world. What it does not mention which is the missing link, if you will, that there were no humans thereby giving the Vilani the equalant of the Ancient Astronaut thesis.

Plus, you don't need an indepth knowledge of biology to make evolution work. Evolution can be as simple as watching how the natural world of any planet operates. Determining one's place in the natural world is where all the contraversy begins and quite frankly I would see the Vilani coming to same conclusions as Darwin and seeing only what they wanted to see.

Anyhow, this was to be the subject of a T4 Adventure, I guess we will never know what that author had in mind.