Wackiness in World Generation - Your Take On This Chestnut?

[jawillroy]

I've always enjoyed taking the raw results of the CT world generation process, and using the sometimes patently absurd results to knit stories for my setting overall. I imagine that's the case all around... but I'd be interested on your take on this one.

IMTU, there's no overarching 3I-type imperium: each little pocket empire tends to keep its neighbors in check, so none of them are able to gain too much influence- at the same time, there's lots of little wars, cold and hot, to keep things interesting. And note: I'm just relying on 2nd Ed. LBB 123, no reference to the other books.

In the subsector I'm working on right now, there's a little puzzle. It's dense, about 42 worlds, but almost all of them are low population worlds, with only five worlds topping pop 8. Of these, only one has the tech & starport to support a space navy capable of dominating the region. (there are a few higher tech worlds, but all have fewer than a million inhabitants.) All the makings of a nice little PE. But here it is:

Veil, A-000966-C Naval base & Gas giant present, Non-Agricultural, Industrial.

Technologically and size-wise the most powerful world in the region, and it's a captive government. AND it's an overpopulated asteroid belt, dependent on planetary trade for its food.

Now, I have a notion how I'm working this one, and I'll bring it later if folks want, BUT I'm curious to see what you fellas come up with... BARRING the deus-ex-machina of "The Imperium stepped in and took over."

There's something about me that keeps me from just re-rolling it without trying to play it out, you know?

 

[Vargas]

Depending on the astrography of your TU, this could be a hub system between pocket empires which is jointly run by an external coalition of those empires. The Navy represents a joint force charged with making sure the starport and shipyard remain open and available to all, protect important commercial shipping and, last but not least, make sure the system doesn't line up behind any one of the pocket empires. Picture Hong Kong before '97 but run jointly by China, Britain, the US and the USSR.

 

[jawillroy]

That's a pretty cool one - I have yet to see what the neighboring subsectors offer, which would have a pretty clear bearing on the issue. I'd want to see one or two more worlds nearby capable of producing something close to an equally powerful fleet, though. The subsector's other, biggest spacefaring worlds only have pop. 8, and I figure that means being able to fund a navy a tenth the size of Veil's. Lower tech, too.

 

[Starviking]

Veil, A-000966-C Naval base & Gas giant present, Non-Agricultural, Industrial.

Technologically and size-wise the most powerful world in the region, and it's a captive government. AND it's an overpopulated asteroid belt, dependent on planetary trade for its food.

Now, I have a notion how I'm working this one, and I'll bring it later if folks want, BUT I'm curious to see what you fellas come up with... BARRING the deus-ex-machina of "The Imperium stepped in and took over."

There's something about me that keeps me from just re-rolling it without trying to play it out, you know?

Hmmm.

Crippled or off-course colony ship (perhaps from an STL era) ends up in this system. Survival hard, but by the time FTL-driven civilization reaches them they're surviving - not well, but not a constant struggle for life.

They are determined to advance, and make sure that they never have to go through any of the privations in their history. That means expansion, and with the scientific edges they developed in their quest to prosper in such an inhospitable system they soon dominate their local area.

Now, however the people and their society are getting lazy, Farm asteroids are being remodeled into luxury parks.

On the surface they're free. But the real power in this society is the military...(or the real power is one of the less populated higher-tech worlds in the area who exert control through proxies and subtle manipulations...)

Starviking

 

[jawillroy]

Also, quite aside from the political side of things, how do you like to play the "asteroid belt with a population of billions" bit? One truly vast space station? A network of them? Some sort of ringworld-in-the-making would seem to be beyond the means of a tech 12 system, though the groundwork for it might have been done by some kind of predecessor society.

Starviking, I like that backstory!

My political solution isn't far from yours - it does come down to counterbalancing the technological & industrial might of veil with a subtler form of power.

 

[Starviking]

Also, quite aside from the political side of things, how do you like to play the "asteroid belt with a population of billions" bit? One truly vast space station? A network of them? Some sort of ringworld-in-the-making would seem to be beyond the means of a tech 12 system, though the groundwork for it might have been done by some kind of predecessor society.

Starviking, I like that backstory!

My political solution isn't far from yours - it does come down to counterbalancing the technological & industrial might of veil with a subtler form of power.

Look forward to reading it.

It took me all of minute! Must have been because I was just on the edge of sleepyness...

Starviking

 

[G. Fieendish]

Also, quite aside from the political side of things, how do you like to play the "asteroid belt with a population of billions" bit? One truly vast space station? A network of them? Some sort of ringworld-in-the-making would seem to be beyond the means of a tech 12 system, though the groundwork for it might have been done by some kind of predecessor society.

Starviking, I like that backstory!

My political solution isn't far from yours - it does come down to counterbalancing the technological & industrial might of veil with a subtler form of power.

I would argue for a hollowed out minor planet, in the belt, with supporting hollowed out asteroids....
For example, the minor planet, Ceres has a diameter of 930 km, if you added internal "levels" inside it, after it had been hollowed out, you might be able to support the required population...
(The 1970's S.F novel Macrolife describes said process, in more detail...).

 

[jawillroy]

Macrolife, huh? I'll look for it!

 

[far-trader]

My first though is it's a kind of United Defense System for the local cluster.

Similar to Vargas' idea but the center of this region rather than of a group of other empires.

The local cluster collectively supported the settlement and construction of the system, the base, and the navy for their mutual defense from outside hostiles.

As for how an asteroid settlement's population is arranged, it all depends on the type of settlement. In this case, billions in support of a navy, I'd probably say some of it is concentrated in and around one huge starbase shipyard, with the rest of it spread out among the asteroids mining them for more material for the navy. A substantial percentage may actually be the navy crews even if some of them are deployed at any moment.

 

[robject]

Veil, A-000966-C Naval base & Gas giant present, Non-Agricultural, Industrial.

Technologically and size-wise the most powerful world in the region, and it's a captive government. AND it's an overpopulated asteroid belt, dependent on planetary trade for its food.

Note that, most likely, an asteroid belt probably won't be overpopulated with billions of people. I mean, there's ore to be prospected, mined, and refined scattered across a vast volume, and many of the rocks can be Ceres-sized. Basically a gargantuan archipelago, with a large city + industrial complex on the large rocks. As planetoids are exhausted of ores, they're hollowed-out and pressurized, and converted to vast hydroponic gardens, with a small fusion-point source of light 'suspended' at the center of mass.

 

[Starviking]

I would argue for a hollowed out minor planet, in the belt, with supporting hollowed out asteroids....
For example, the minor planet, Ceres has a diameter of 930 km, if you added internal "levels" inside it, after it had been hollowed out, you might be able to support the required population...
(The 1970's S.F novel Macrolife describes said process, in more detail...).

I don't think it's on the same scale, but Megatraveller Journal 4's "Lords of Thunder" had Gateway:

1220 AS62688-B Ri Ni 822 Ga F0 V M2 D

I recall some layouts were included in the adventure.

Starviking

 

[rancke]

Veil, A-000966-C Naval base & Gas giant present, Non-Agricultural, Industrial.

Technologically and size-wise the most powerful world in the region, and it's a captive government. AND it's an overpopulated asteroid belt, dependent on planetary trade for its food.

At TL 12 they should have no problem growing their own food by hydroponics and carniculture.

If you hadn't restricted yourself to Book 1-3, you could make the government a military junta. That was later added as an option for Gov 6.

How about this: The ruling elite colonized a neighboring world to be their own private holiday resort world. (Is there a suitable Terran-Norm world around?) By and by they began spending more and more time there. Nowadays they live there most of the time and take turns going back to Veil and supervising.


Hans

 

[jawillroy]

Far-Trader, I like the starport as the hub of the place along with robject's scattered asteroidal population... the two work together pretty well. I guess the notion of a UDS system seems to go against the spirit of a Gov. 6 unless you think of it in terms of being a foreign navy somehow, or a Junta as Rancke suggests. (A Junta does seem to work well within the definitions of a Captive Government, book 6 or no.)

The "Neighboring Holiday World Turned Overseer" model is interesting too, though it seems as though such a ruling clique would be relatively easy to shuck off if the military could be suborned.

 

[rancke]

The "Neighboring Holiday World Turned Overseer" model is interesting too, though it seems as though such a ruling clique would be relatively easy to shuck off if the military could be suborned.

So either the elite has a way of preventing the military from being suborned or the military just hasn't been suborned yet and things are just about to change drastically shortly after the campaign starts .


Hans

 

[jawillroy]

Potentially volatile situations like this do make for good settings, don't they?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Basically a gargantuan archipelago, with a large city + industrial complex on the large rocks.

Perfect analogy, robject. That's why I haven't batted an eye at several million+ asteroid belts in my proto-T-sized ATU (3.5 sectors generated, so far!). As a matter of fact, I have at least one location with 3 asteroid belts, all with pops 6+! (Don't forget Bujold's Quaddies (from Falling Free).)

... though it seems as though such a ruling clique would be relatively easy to shuck off if the military could be suborned.

Hmmmmm. Or the pop of the asteroid belt is all foreigners - including the military - drawn in by benefits promised by those "absentee landlords". So, there is a major hurdle to suborning the military - they won't get/retain the benefits of citizenship. Ideas on benefits that would be enough to draw that many people and keep them loyal?

 

[rancke]

Hmmmmm. Or the pop of the asteroid belt is all foreigners - including the military - drawn in by benefits promised by those "absentee landlords". So, there is a major hurdle to suborning the military - they won't get/retain the benefits of citizenship. Ideas on benefits that would be enough to draw that many people and keep them loyal?

How many people do you need to control a billion people divided into many fragile space habitats? Enough marines to invade the largest habitat and enough ships to deliver the marines and defend the system against outsiders.



Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Ah! But, the issue is suborning of the military (which jawillroy says is large), not just fear and trembling by the unarmed masses. I thought the colonization by foreigners idea fed into the Gov-6 bit, and allowed for that "absentee landlord" idea, too.

 

[Icosahedron]

My first though is it's a kind of United Defense System for the local cluster.

Similar to Vargas' idea but the center of this region rather than of a group of other empires.

The local cluster collectively supported the settlement and construction of the system, the base, and the navy for their mutual defense from outside hostiles.

I like this one. And the asteroid belt was chosen partly for its easily available resources and partly because of its neutrality, with no native history, politics or pre-existing alliegencies. A sort of Antarctica in space.

 

[jawillroy]

I'd be more inclined to go for that one if the place didn't have such a high population AND higher tech than the surrounding area. Thing is, for me, Veil's got every reason to be king of the hill of this subsector and maybe the neighboring one - but it's not.