wanted: light sabre conversion

[salamander]

Originally posted by salamander:
Because the magnetic "bottle" is formed by harnessing high-potential E-M fields, two plasma swords coming into contact will resist each other, allowing one PS to parry another. The PS is also source of high amounts of RF and will tend to interfere with unshielded electronics within 2 range bands (most milspec electronics will not be affected). Any equipment which can monitor E-M disturbances will detect an active Plasma Sword at up to 2km distance.

I'll just add that PS must be a uniqe skill, not available to any of the standard careers. Cutlass -2 may be used by an untrained fencer attempting the use of a plasma sword but any missed blows must require a check against DX to avoid inflicting 2D damage on one's self.

[Cocks and locks his Gauss SAW] "Here Yoda, Yoda..."

 

[MrMorden]

Originally posted by stofsk:
Stormtroopers are actually very good with ranged weaponry. A stormtrooper took a quick shot from a VERY awkward position and it managed to hit Leia in the shoulder. There's also the line from ANH where the Stormies attacked the Jawa sandcrawler in straetgic spots. Chewie is also a crackshot, as is Han Solo.

The problem is with RANGED weapons in GENERAL. It is easier to stick a knife into someones gut if you are in engaged in melee. It is a lot harder to fire a ranged weapon at a moving target, especially if you're moving as well.

However, your point about 'do what you want in your game' is taken to heart. Personally I'd take a lightsabre anyway, mainly because they are so cool.

I lost respect for stormtroopers when a whole legion of them got beat up by Ewoks with rocks.

Firing a ranged weapon at a moving target is not as hard as you think. When I was a cop we did moving drills with pistols, in some cases both firer and target moving. At a reasonable pistol range (25m or less), the human brain is remarkably good at ballistic calculations.

Enjoy your sabers, let us know if any cool situations develop with them in your campaign!

 

[salamander]

Originally posted by MrMorden:
I lost respect for stormtroopers when a whole legion of them got beat up by Ewoks with rocks.

Seriously. They all move with the same hunched-over shuffle and fire stock-less laser carbines from the hip. No wonder they can't hit the broad side of a Gundar. The Empire has FTL travel and communications but they can't build a decent smartgun/helmet HUD?

Star Wars has been forever spoiled for me.


And what's with the Napoleonic massed formations? I could solve the all the Rebellion's problems with a decent arty battery and a couple of forward observers.

This is why Traveller and Star Wars don't mesh well. A Marine reinforced battalion could rule the galaxy.

 

[marginaleye]

I've got to agree, that the light-saber is a pretty silly idea. On the other hand, the Imperial marines still waste a lot of valuable time practicing with those superdense cutlasses, so it's clear that the canonical Traveller universe isn't quite as relentlessly practical as is generally believed.

I agree, by the way, about the light-sabers and Law Level. Yes, a light-saber is an energy weapon, and you probably could use one to carve a G-Carrier into chunks (assuming it was sitting still), but using a light-saber still demands that one get "up-close and personal," so it isn't quite as convenient for causing long-distance carnage. Thus, Law Level 2 seems excessively strict. I'd prohibit them at Law Level 4, or perhaps 5. That seems like a fair compromise.

 

[stofsk]

That article is so full of holes salamander. The polite way is to say that David Brin not only is an idiot but can't analyse a literary piece while providing accurate evidence (did you see any quotes from the scripts? I sure as hell didn't). His argument is full of varied negative assumptions about Star Wars, none of which he bothers to justify with direct quotation, or any form of analysis. He praises Star Trek while ignoring its glaring faults (the kind of faults that make otherwise rational human beings throw the remote at the TV).

He may be a writer, but a critic? Not a very good one.

As for the lightsabre being a silly idea - lets see, in the Star Wars universe you have a lightsabre with unlimited ammo, is nondescript and easily concealable, only used by the Jedi elite in the First Place, can be used to deflect blaster bolts, and can even use them to redirect the said bolts to strike the attacker. Lastly, you can use it to cut your Christmas turkey.

 

[salamander]

Originally posted by stofsk:
That article is so full of holes salamander.

Such as?

Actually, don't bother. I'm not trying to start an anti-SW flamethread. I'd be happy to discuss why I think the SW movies are badly written but not at the risk of having anyone feel I'm attacking him for liking Star Wars.

My point is only this: lightsabres work in the SW universe. They were designed into the SW universe.

I don't think they work in the Traveller universe, in any of its rulesets. My proof of this is that they don't exist in any of its rulesets.

The polite way is to say that David Brin not only is an idiot but can't analyse a literary piece while providing accurate evidence (did you see any quotes from the scripts? I sure as hell didn't). His argument is full of varied negative assumptions about Star Wars, none of which he bothers to justify with direct quotation, or any form of analysis. He praises Star Trek while ignoring its glaring faults (the kind of faults that make otherwise rational human beings throw the remote at the TV).

I won't bite. And I'm sorry that referencing the article comes across as a flame against SW. Well, okay, it is a flame against Star Wars, but I have no desire to flame fans of the Star Wars universe.

He may be a writer, but a critic? Not a very good one.

If you are in agreement, we'll just disagree here.

As for the lightsabre being a silly idea -

In the Traveller universe, yes.

lets see, in the Star Wars universe you have a lightsabre with unlimited ammo,

Dude, no personal weapon has unlimited ammo in the Traveller setting or rulesets. This is a serious question of game balance. A TL 15 laser rifle still requires a power pack in most rulesets. The kind of power supply needed to drive a SW lightsabre does not exist at Traveller[ruleset] TL's. If you have a bunch of mystic dudes running around the Spinward Marches with these things, the whole of canonical Traveller[setting] gets altered. Fine, if you want to run your campaign that way, but you will have people pointing out that this doesn't make sense from a Traveller[setting] point of view.

is nondescript and easily concealable, only used by the Jedi elite in the First Place,

Traveller[setting] doesn't have anything to approximate the Jedi elite. Psionics have been rigorously repressed. If you have Jedis, you wind up playing a "saifai" RPG using Traveller[ruleset]. That's fine, but it is a point of departure from people who enjoy using Traveller as a setting as well as a ruleset. But it's YTU: DWTWSBTWOTL.

can be used to deflect blaster bolts, and can even use them to redirect the said bolts to strike the attacker.

Traveller[ruleset] doesn't have blasters. Though laser weapons and P/FGMPs exist, most characters, NPC or otherwise, are going to be using slugthrowers. As I've been trying to point out in this thread, this defensive advantage is useless against CPR or MD slugthrowers because their rate of fire is several orders of magnitude greater than what's available in the SW universe.

Seriously, are you going to tell me that a Jedi can stand in front of a vehicle-mounted VRF Gauss Gun and deflect 4,000 rounds per minute with his lightsabre? A Traveller TL 9 ACR has an ROF of ~ 600 rpm. Will a Jedi be able to stand his ground and deflect the entire clip of HEAP rounds that my character just emptied at him?

I've never played any SW RPG, but the movies do not use even basic modern infantry tactics: there's no area denial; no suppressive fire or beaten zones; no rolling barrages; StormTroopers don't seem to have a sophisticated understanding of bounding overwatch and they all fire stockless laser carbines from the hip.

Napoleonic formations just don't work in the face of rapid-fire, autoloading slugthrowers and breech-loading artillery with several-km ranges. There's a reason why these tactics went out of style, yet they're still being employed "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away".

I repeat: give me a BatRon, a decent artillery battery and a reinforced Marine battalion and I will solve a whole bunch of the Rebellion's problems.

Lastly, you can use it to cut your Christmas turkey.

Except that it cauterizes everything that it cuts. I can't imagine that's going to taste good in turkey sandwich. Well, maybe with enough mayonnaise...

I agree that you can play Traveller with Jedis and lightsabres: I just don't understand why you'd want to. In order to make lightsabres work in Traveller, you need to change so many things about the rules and the setting that you may as well just play Star Wars.

Here endeth My Not-So-Humble-Opinion.

Brought to you by the letter "J"

 

[TKalbfus]

Besides, any world which would restrict concealed handguns will definitely restrict a frickin laser/plasma/force sword capable of cutting through superdense (see Phantom Menace), unless that society endorses some bizarre "code duello", in which case all bets are off.

Well you can just say its a flashlight.

 

[marginaleye]

The usual caveats apply, however: it's YTU, so "do what thou wilt" shall be the whole of the law. [emphasis added]

Oh, gee...
I guess I'll going to have to re-read Supplement 93 now!

 

[salamander]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Well you can just say its a flashlight.

Riiiight! Do the cops in YTU routinely just get glassy-eyed and say "This isn't the flashlight we're looking for. Move on"

One of my cops gives your Jedi the hairy eyeball then glances at his partner and if you fail a check against Int, you don't notice that Cop#2 just took two steps back and unclipped the restraining strap on his pistol and has started whispering into his throat-mike.

"Okay" sez Cop#1, "Flashlight huh? Show me."

 

[marginaleye]

Riiiight! Do the cops in YTU routinely just get glassy-eyed and say "This isn't the flashlight we're looking for. Move on"

One of my cops gives your Jedi the hairy eyeball then glances at his partner and if you fail a check against Int, you don't notice that Cop#2 just took two steps back and unclipped the restraining strap on his pistol and has started whispering into his throat-mike.

Ah... but what if you can use a light-saber as a flashlight? It's not a totally silly idea. Consider the "flashlights" aboard the aptly-named "Lying Bastard," in Niven's Ringworld (or perhaps it was The Ringworld Engineers -- I'm not sure). On the other hand, in a universe with man-portable energy weapons, I'm sure that there are "scanners" and "sniffers" that can detect them, and the light-saber would undoubtedly set such devices off, so the "it's only a flash-light" defense would only work against fairly casual inspection, not against cops who are well-equipped and know what they're looking for.

But seriously...
But if you're willing to accept teleporting, clairvoyance-guided Zhodani commandos, I don't see why quasi-Jedi psionically-enhanced martial artists are so hard to digest. If anything, I'd say that psionic teleportation is a "sillier" or "fluffier" concept than subtly using clairvoyance and psychokinesis to enhance one's ability in hand-to-hand combat. Yes, the Jedi of the Star Wars universe are greatly enhanced by the conventions of "cinematic" adventure, and by George Lucas' grotesque ignorance of plausible futuristic military technology, but (shorn of these "enhancements"), the level of "fluffiness" of the Jedi themselves, or at least their abilties, wouldn't be grossly out of place in the canonical Traveller universe.

 

[salamander]

Originally posted by marginaleye:
Ah... but what if you can use a light-saber as a flashlight?

That might work once. Then you fire it up in full beam mode and the EM disturbance screws up a 6-block radius. Nice way to draw attention to yourself.

But seriously...
But if you're willing to accept teleporting, clairvoyance-guided Zhodani commandos, I don't see why quasi-Jedi psionically-enhanced martial artists are so hard to digest. If anything, I'd say that psionic teleportation is a "sillier" or "fluffier" concept than subtly using clairvoyance and psychokinesis to enhance one's ability in hand-to-hand combat.

Psionicists bug me, period. I'll include them only because they're part of canon but where I set my campaign, they're rare enough to be non-existent.

My main objection to a Star Wars style lightsabre is that Traveller personal weapons don't have energy cells small and powerful enough to give "unlimited use" and the ability to cut through bonded superdense. Traveller hull material is usually breached with megaJoules of laser energy and nothing small enough to fit in the palm of a human's hand can store and deliver that kind of power.

If you suddenly introduce this kind of tech, it has a ripple effect all across the Traveller technology base. Would you have unlimited-shot laser rifles and carbines? P/FGMPS weighing only a couple of kg? How about stringing a bank of these supercells together in order to replace the fusion plant in a grav vehicle? I always thought that a really cool aspect of Traveller was that superscience was limited to fusion, J-drives and contragrav: everything else was a mostly straight-line extrapolation of Terran tech. Introduce SW-style magictech and pretty soon, most of the cool things that make up the "look and feel" of Traveller become generalized with the Star Wars universe. So my question stands: why not just play Star Wars and supplement it with Traveller materials?

Advocates of SWLSs in a Traveller setting have said "well, it would be cool to deflect blaster bolts!". My response to that is: bully for you--but no-one in Traveller uses a blaster. You are not going to convince me that even a Jedi could swing a lightsabre fast enough to deflect 4,000 gauss needles in a minute. Now you're going to add "blasters" to the game? How about sharks with frickin laser beams...?

Someone has also said that it would be cool to carry something around that could conveniently cut through bulkheads. Again, the way Traveller is structured: on most moderate-pop, moderate-LL worlds, there'd be no way you could walk around with something that powerful.

As a melee weapon, a lightsabre has a certain surprise value and it's definitely going to be lethal in the right hands. But once your enemies know that you carry it, Traveller provides about 6,000 ways to neutralize that advantage.

I would make any Traveller lightsabre a clunky, high-tech, expensive and rare weapon. Anything else just wouldn't be Trav!

 

[marginaleye]

If you suddenly introduce this kind of tech, it has a ripple effect all across the Traveller technology base. Would you have unlimited-shot laser rifles and carbines? P/FGMPS weighing only a couple of kg? How about stringing a bank of these supercells together in order to replace the fusion plant in a grav vehicle? I always thought that a really cool aspect of Traveller was that superscience was limited to fusion, J-drives and contragrav: everything else was a mostly straight-line extrapolation of Terran tech.

This is a quite a convincing argument for keeping light-sabers out of one's campaign. Actually, there are quite a few more plausible (albeit less spectacular) ways to make equip pseudo-Jedi (assuming you want to have pseudo-Jedi) with really spiffy high-tech swords.

I vaguely recall a Saberhagen story set on a primitive planet with a Berserker disguised as a dragon, and an agent armed with a sword whose actual cutting edge is a huge, but microscopically thin, mono-molecular slab, embedded within (but still just slightly wider than) an otherwise ordinary metal blade. Presumably, whatever technology is used to make bonded superdense could also be used to enhance the keenness and durability of such an edge. No, you couldn't use such a thing to carve parked G-Carriers into chunks, you could still perform some pretty impressive tricks (slicing through battle-dress, for instance).

Given the choice, I'd keep the pseudo-Jedi, and lose the light-sabers.

 

[TKalbfus]

But seriously...
But if you're willing to accept teleporting, clairvoyance-guided Zhodani commandos, I don't see why quasi-Jedi psionically-enhanced martial artists are so hard to digest. If anything, I'd say that psionic teleportation is a "sillier" or "fluffier" concept than subtly using clairvoyance and psychokinesis to enhance one's ability in hand-to-hand combat. Yes, the Jedi of the Star Wars universe are greatly enhanced by the conventions of "cinematic" adventure, and by George Lucas' grotesque ignorance of plausible futuristic military technology, but (shorn of these "enhancements"), the level of "fluffiness" of the Jedi themselves, or at least their abilties, wouldn't be grossly out of place in the canonical Traveller universe.

I read in a book called "the science of Star Wars" that the most plausible explaination of a light sabre is that it is a plasma sword. It is a very dense plasma confined by a powerful magnetic field which probably leaks plasma off the top. Also the plasma sword would put off so much heat, you would need to be in a suit of battle dress to survive it. All flamables nearby would burst into flames and approaching it would be like approaching a very hot furnace, the kind you use for smelting metals from ores. In the Traveller universe two "jedi" would have to be in battle dress for them to have a sabre duel. These weapons are closely related to man protable fusion or plasma weapons. I think it would be very funny if you tried to convert the classic star wars movies so that they are Traveller complient.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I read in a book called "the science of Star Wars" that the most plausible explaination of a light sabre is that it is a plasma sword.

<snip>

Well given that the Jedi and nearby flamables don't go up in flames everytime one of them 'draw' a Light Sabre that answer has to be wrong. Now before anyone gets the wrong ideas:

1 - I am a StarWars fan, at least as far as episode IV and partially ep. V but by ep. VI the vision was dying. Lucas really turned me off with all his stalling excuses between ep. VI and ep. I and the whole failed promise of 9 parts in 3 acts and his loss of vision and the remakes because he couldn't do it the way he wanted to in the first place when originally he claimed it was the story (not the fx) that mattered, anyway I digress, what was the topic?

2 - I am not a Lucas apologist (gee did I need to clarify that after the above).

3 - I am not George Lucas and am not privy to his hidden thoughts (the force runs shallow in this one, too much is his mind on the future and friends, what might be, train him I can not) so what I propose is just a one time fevered fans thoughts...

Oh, right, my idea. Not sure this has been posed before or not since I don't hang out in dives like the cantina of Mos' Eisley or StarWars chat boards but how's about this.

The Light Sabre is built by each Jedi (normally, Luke lucked into getting his father's old one to start with) and is a personal weapon if I recall the lore. Perhaps that was meant not so much as face to face with your opponent personal as hand crafted and imbued personal, unlike a blaster which is mass produced and merely a piece of technology. You see where I'm going with this don't you young apprentice.

So the Jedi crafts a focus for the force as a weapon, the Light Sabre. By powering it up the Jedi's force is channeled and formed into a blade of living force. Each Jedi's training will lead to a slightly different color in the force blade, or maybe it's the type of material used in the focus.

So it's not some super heated plasma but pure force energy. An extension of the Jedi. Allowing such tricks as deflecting blows and energy blasts. Also it's the only thing that can deflect another force blade. Running out of power? Only as the force weakens in the Jedi weilding it. Recall Luke's fight with Vader where he's deflecting the TK hurled items and getting progressively weaker. At first his energy is strong and his Light Sabre blocks the attack but each hit weakens him and while the force blade still connects he gets knocked worse and worse. Recall also all the times a Jedi turns off his blade while there's a lull, they are conserving their energy, not some neverdeady(tm) battery. Anyway that's my theory.

Now I'm not advocating a bunch of Psionic Knights modelled after Jedi will fit in Traveller but at least with that model you have a much more valid argument. You make it a Special psionic disipline requiring the focus of a hand crafted Light Sabre with the knowledge of the tech part a secret of the order and spend Psi points to power it and you're in business.

Far as I know this is my own original idea but I put it out here for public use with the understanding that credit be given where due and you let me know through here what you do with it (cause that'd be cool and maybe I could help) and that it not be copied for profit. Simple enough I think, have fun within those guidelines and may the force be with you

<swhooom> "En guard!" <vrooom thruuum>

 

[TKalbfus]

So it's not some super heated plasma but pure force energy. An extension of the Jedi. Allowing such tricks as deflecting blows and energy blasts. Also it's the only thing that can deflect another force blade. Running out of power? Only as the force weakens in the Jedi weilding it. Recall Luke's fight with Vader where he's deflecting the TK hurled items and getting progressively weaker. At first his energy is strong and his Light Sabre blocks the attack but each hit weakens him and while the force blade still connects he gets knocked worse and worse. Recall also all the times a Jedi turns off his blade while there's a lull, they are conserving their energy, not some neverdeady(tm) battery. Anyway that's my theory.

The one hole in your theory though is the fact that Han Solo used Luke's Light Sabre to cut open one of those riding beasts they used on Hoth to keep Luke warm when he found him unconscious in the snow. According to your theory the light sabre should not have worked in Han Solo's hands. A plasma sword would be the closest thing to a light sabre in Traveller, despite all the disadvantages in radiated heat. The charged particles of plasma in one plasma sword would repell the charged particles in another so you can parry the blow of one plasma sword with another. If the blades were made of light, they would go right through each other. it would be impossible to have sword play with laser beams.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
The one hole in your theory though is the fact that Han Solo used Luke's Light Sabre to cut open one of those riding beasts they used on Hoth to keep Luke warm when he found him unconscious in the snow. According to your theory the light sabre should not have worked in Han Solo's hands.

Yes, I was trying to recall any instances of someone apparently not force trained or strong with the force picking one up and using it. Recalling that the force is in all of us, Han (and anyone else) could make a short use of a Light Sabre before they exhausted their limited force energy. It's a stretch but not a long one. Or I could scream "Screw Up!" and blame someone for a continuity error Actually as much as Han blows off the force I've always seen hints that he has more than he knows he has and it would scare him silly if he acknowledged it.

My memory ain't what it used to be and the material is huge (movies, tv shows, books, comics) and I stopped being a 'fan' and collector after ep. VI so I've no doubt missed more than I've ever known. Does anybody remember any other instances of a non-Jedi playing with a Light Sabre? I vaguely recall a scene somewhere that has a non-Jedi examining a Light Sabre and it not coming on but I could easily be wrong.

 

[stofsk]

Far-trader:

The important events that should be considered are what we see in the movies. Onscreen, Han Solo uses a lightsabre - he's no Jedi, and worse, doesn't BELIEVE in the force either. Also, Luke picked up his dad's lightsabre and played with it briefly in ANH - but he wasn't a Jedi either.

This reminds me of Kenjutsu, Katanas and how both are regarded by Samurai and Ninja. They both trained with sword and fist. The Samurai however, believed that the Katana had a spirit of its own, while the Ninja simply accepted that the sword, while a valuable tool, was BUT a tool and nothing else.

You're argument seems to regard Jedi as Samurai whose special weapon can only be used by them (if anyone wielded a Katana that was grounds enough for a blustering Samurai to come along and kill that person.)

I always thought the Jedi were Ninja, especially in the OT where Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda survived through the use of stealth (consider the difference between the Luke who rushes into danger at the end of ESB, where he is clearly not a Jedi, to the Luke at the beginning of ROTJ, where he only enters Jabba's palace when all the people had been inserted into it. The former is brave and reckless, and ultimately fails. The latter is cunning and subtle, and succeeds).

To get back onto the topic, the lightsabre, like the katana, is just a tool. There is a way such a device works in the Star Wars universe (obviously it can't be a plasma sword the way we think one would work, as we see them onscreen and have to go with what's observed. Perhaps the heat emissions are somehow deflected by the force? Or contained by whatever forms the beam? Or maybe something else completely different... I don't know).

Anyhow, I've actually heard your theory before, said by another. Undoubtedly Jedi have the skill to use the lightsabre without cutting themselves; however, this doesn't necessarily make the lightsabre wholly dependent on the Force or a Jedi's skill and sensitivity with the Force.

Oh, and Salamander:

I didn't want to come across as a Star Wars fanatic trying to defend SW to my last dying breath. I just felt that article by Brin was bunk. It wasn't the first time I'd read it, and knowing a thing or two about literature and the criticising of it the article struck me as being sloppy. I agree with what you said about lightsabres not working in the OTU, but I also maintain, as do you, the 'do what you will' clause in any role-playing game.

Anyway, I agree to disagree.

 

[TKalbfus]

You can build something that looks like a lightsabre and has some of its properties though. I thought it would be fun to construct a Traveller version of the Star Wars Trilogy adjusting the plot to reflect the realities of the OTU. You need an Evil Empire about the size of a Subsector and you place the Star Wars planets within the Subsector. Use jump drives instead of hyperdrives and no TL communications and see what happens.

 

[stofsk]

Off-topic: how large is a Sub-sector/Sector in the Traveller Universe?

 

[notagoodusername]

A subsector is 8x10 parsecs (on a hex grid). A sector is 4x4 subsectors, so 32x40 parsecs.

Shane