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weapons' design and evolution thereof

Blue Ghost

SOC-14 5K
Knight
Would a weapon's basic design be altered much over the years?

By this I don't mean things like the invention of gauss weapons, LASER weaponry, and other high tech arsenals. I mean can the basic designs of weapons like a pump shotgun, Colt Python revolver, or 50-calibur Barret be appreciably "improved" to the point they'll effectively be another weapon or "obsolete" for lack of a better term?

I was thinking about this driving home from work today, and was wondering what everyone's thoughts were.
 
Let's take the H&K G3, a weapon dating back to 1945 (StuG 45). Let's do some changes:

+ A3 version changed the sights to the now common drum sight

+ A7 version added a bolt closing device

Using FFS toygun (G36) technology one could add:

+ Polygonal, chromed barrel (1)
+ Clear, clip-together magazins
+ Three round burst (2)
+ Folding stock (not the push-in of the A4)
+ Lot's of plastic to reduce the weight
+ Reflex sights

You will get a weapon that looks different and handels different while retaining the same inner mechanics. Caliber changes are optional as the G3 family ranging from 9x19 to 7.62x51 shows

If you want much bigger changes, you get a totally different internal layout. There is a reason why they are still using the "Mauser" lock form the (18)98 and the Browning Lock from the 1935 GP today. Sometimes a technology becomes "perfect" or at least as close to perfect to fulfil it's duty (3) while still being payable.

About the only possible thing with current generation weapons is ETC (Electro-Thermal/Chemical) technology but that might not work with recoil-operated guns.


(1) They did that with the MG42-59 after all
(2) MP5 has said group
(3) One could build a more precise G3 (i.e the PSG-1) but that think won't stand a day off combat duty
 
Let's not forget the G11 tech improvements that seem to have been abandoned. I test fired one in '91 (after the project was abandoned I think) and it was a doozie. One of the most bizarre things about it was its recoil, it was there but delayed.

As well as caseless ammo it had a very original breech that rotated into place from vertical to horizontal. Its ROF was amazing and stunning accuracy. If I had my hands on one today I could think of all sorts of improvements to the one I had but sadly it has been consigned to the dustbin of weapon technologies alongside so many others.

Looking to the near future, ETC technology may prove suitable for sniper weapons but I suspect Metal Storm may bring some innteresting solutions to the fore.

ps. I hope the rumour that the UK will adopt the G36 family proves to be true, it's a fine system.
 
Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Would a weapon's basic design be altered much over the years? ...I mean can the basic designs of weapons like a pump shotgun, Colt Python revolver, or 50-calibur Barret be appreciably "improved" to the point they'll effectively be another weapon or "obsolete" for lack of a better term?
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I don't think the Terran pump-action shotgun has changed appreciably since 1898. The modern action is probably a bit more reliable, and the stock and sights may be synthetic, but overall design? Not much different than was used in WWI trench warfare. I don't think the contemporary models have a bayonet mount, but I could be wrong about that.

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When another model of revolver outperforms the Colt Python, it has been rendered 'obsolete'. That does not mean it's not still useful! People hunt successfully with obsolescent black powder firearms all the time, and they even seem to enjoy it, too. ;)

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Obsolescence is a somewhat vague term, which I think is only applicable when a weapon (or any piece of hardware) has been successfully replaced by another model which outperforms it in the exact same role, accessories (ammo) for it are no longer being manufactured, or that the role for which it was designed is no longer relevant (as in the case of shoe button hooks, the quill pen or the electric typewriter). That would apply to energy weapons as well as slug throwers, air superiority fighters, video game systems and any other artifact. Even RPG systems!
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Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
You will get a weapon that looks different and handels different while retaining the same inner mechanics.
Apparantly, it is possible to change alot about a weapon - even transform it from a traditional configuration to a bullpup one - and still retain the same inner mechanics. The bullpup Vektor CR-21 is actualy (in terms of inner mechanics) a replica of the traditionally-configured Galil which is, in turn, an AK-47 chambered to NATO 5.56x45mm rounds with several additionl minor modifications.

Concerning design, a Gauss weapon is still a slugthrower, just using elecromagnetic fields instead of chemical propellants. That would probably mean no casings, and hence no need for a casing ejection port or accomodations for dealing with gasses. Other than that, it will probably have a very similar function to slugthrowers, so external design will probably remain similar. Lasers might be different, as (IIRC) they don't have recoil, they don't have inner clips, and they need to deal with overheating.
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
+ Lot's of plastic to reduce the weight
Just curious - in a society that no longer extracts fossil hydrocarbons for fuel, would plastics be cost-effective?
 
...would plastics be cost-effective?
Yes. There are enough sources of plastics from living organics. It changes which particular plastics are more and less viable, but plastic materials as a class are still certainly viable.
 
Asteroids can provide all the elements needed to make polymers - after that it's just basic chemistry and energy.

At average Traveller TLs bio/nano-tech would probably be able to manufacture polymers in vast quantities. Quite a boring use for such technology, but probably why it's not worth mentioning in the setting material ;)
 
Originally posted by Arthur hault-Denger:
Obsolescence is a somewhat vague term, which I think is only applicable when a weapon (or any piece of hardware) has been successfully replaced by another model which outperforms it in the exact same role,
... That would apply
... Even RPG systems!
NEVER!
The LBBs of Classic Traveller will live forvever. A thousand years from now, Traveller 171 may be available on direct neural implant cryatals, but there will still be a small band who will preserve the sacred knowledge of the Little Black Books in the eternal reprint.

Or maybe not.
 
Would a weapon's basic design be altered much over the years?

Yes. The key will be advancements in materials technology altering some game statistic.

At TL 3, most of the features of a modern rifle could be created if someone had thought of them (cartridges, rifled barrels, breechloading, etc.) but the hand made steels are not nearly strong enough for modern bullets. The result is a large projectile fired at a low velocity to kill without bursting barrels.

By the wild west (TL 4), steel had improved enough to allow bullets like the 45 caliber bullets fired at faster velocities to kill better than the old 60 to 70 caliber flintlocks. But a more powerfull bullet (like the 30-06 or 9mm parabellum would burst the barrel of a TL 4 weapon.

You get the idea. Magnum rounds. High Powered rounds. Bullets get smaller and faster as barrel pressures get higher. Same Kill for less bullet.

Caseless ammo will change things again by allowing faster rates of fire. See the G11 and Metalstorm for ideas of this tech. Bullets can becone much smaller when each "shot" is a near instantaneous 3 round burst.

Self propelled ammo might require another change in basic firearms. No recoil means large fast bullets with heavy armor piercing capabilities. Large bullets open the possibility of high explosive bullets.

Obviously Gauss becomes the ultimate small arm with hypersonic projectiles.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:

The LBBs of Classic Traveller will live forvever. A thousand years from now, Traveller 171 may be available on direct neural implant cryatals, but there will still be a small band who will preserve the sacred knowledge of the Little Black Books in the eternal reprint.

...
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Yea, verily, my brother!

'Trust not the crystal which is surgically inserted into thy cranium, lest the demon of unholy spam
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bypasseth thy sacred firewall and entereth directly into thy medulla oblongata, corrupting thy very thoughts and tranmogrifying thee into a raving fArmaCIst with a free cell phone, click here!' Adverbs 67:2
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;)
 
Gents,

As with fighter jets, human physiology is the limit here and I'd say we'd pretty much reached it already with handguns and small arms. Newton's Second Law can't be cheated. There is only so much recoil the human body can take while still using a firearm effectively.

There are various bells and whistles still to be developed, aiming geegaws, breach improvements, ammo tweaks, stability aids, weight reduction/distribution, and so forth. However, the limits due to recoil - a product of projectile mass and muzzle velocity - have been reached. There are already handguns on the market that no sane person would want to use regularly and no one but experts can even fire safely. (Desert Eagle I'm looking at you!)

Even Traveller's vaunted (and fictional) gauss weapons face the recoil hurdle. It doesn't matter if the projectile is a tiny sliver, at those muzzle velocities there is going to be major recoil.

Self-propelled projectiles can break this 'recoil barrier' but a lot of work needs to be done with them. Thanks to a link on a weapons discussion board earlier this year, I read a report of a fairly recent Gyrojet test firing in a small arms magazine. Although originally printed, the report was on-line.

The reviewer had much to say about the poor mechanical 'fit & finish' of the pistol itself. He had even fewer goods things to say about the quality of the Gyrojet's ammunition. Burn time, thrust, and other factors varied greatly from round to round. This, plus the poor manufacturing of the pistol itself, understandably effected accuracy a great deal. As far as accuracy was concerned, the reviewer rated the Gyrojet well below even bargain basement pistols in the same calibre.

Naturally, all the faults he found could be remedied by an improved manufacturing process but, at it sits now, the relatively few Gyrojets made in the 60s are worth more as collectible oddities than as working firearms.

Of course, in the 57th Century self-propelled and even self-aiming(!) small arms projectiles may be the norm.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Just whip a round of HEAP out of your coat pocket, toss it in the general direction of your target, and SPLAT! :D
 
Originally posted by veltyen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(atpollard)Self propelled ammo might require another change in basic firearms.
Wrong tense


Look up gyrojet weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet
</font>[/QUOTE]The gyrojet looks like an Accelerator Rifle round to me.

Nano-tech (not very Traveller, I know) might allow for self propelled (and remotely steered?) projectiles having teleguided, heat-seeking, or fire-and-forget properties. Something like this could maybe circle round and a hit a close range target once it had built up momentum.
Hell, you might not even need a gun, just press a button on the bullet and let it go!
 
So the ultimate personal firearm is not to have one?

How very Zen. Walking around with a cloud of active bullets, pointing at what you want dead. Like a conductor, waving your small target designation baton...


I gotta admit, I like that image. The ultimate soldier is wearing a tuxedo.
 
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