What are the Unplayable Things in Classic Traveller for You?

[kilemall]

Here's the ironic thing about the whole 3I as content simplifier- it's really NOT due to all the canon mismatches/changes this and that, and in the final analysis, one ends up making it their own universe anyway due to interpretation, not reading or owning every set of rules, etc.

Well, to me the two parts of the statement are not separate as it highlights the changeable nature of the canon, how bits and pieces can be differently interpreted simply because one may not have all the bits that collectively add up to a 'right' answer, not to mention all the QA/inconsistencies that crop up, and so the canon that is canon, isn't really one version but ends up being an ATU per interpreter per content they know/can access.

Closer perhaps, and one which makes most adventures intelligible to each other which of course is the goal of the thing, but IMO it takes as much effort taking it all in as making one's own universe.

Another aspect I didn't explicitly highlight is that by tying new versions to specific milieus of the multi-Imperium arc, one might like a particular version of the rules but because they are tied into universe content you don't have just a generic do-anything tinker set anymore.

Kind of like a LEGO toy set that has new widgets, but is tied into some movie or character franchise so the toys end up running on rails back to that content rather then be freeform.

It sells LEGO sets, which keeps the lights on and gives some unique blocks to plug in, but is less a generic create your own toy.

 

[kilemall]

Additionally, I really like that Close range in Classic Traveller combat has distinctly different values than Short and Medium. This way, firing a Rifle at Close range is actually a liability when someone is coming at you with a dagger. They can get inside your attack, wielding their knife at better odds than you fumbling with a long gun. I think that's neat. With Striker, of course, Close, Short and Medium all get folded into one Effective range. I find that less appealing. And since lot of Classic Traveller combat is going to take place at Close, Short, and Medium ranges, I like having different "flavors" for the different ranges.)

Now that's a fair critique. I can only point out the example of the Accelerator Rifle, which has the low pen value then the higher pen for the Long Range, as an example of how you can make things variable.

I'm probably going to deal with it as a mixed in part of melee combat, where longarms are at a disadvantage compared to blades or pistols- more like they are slower/cumbersome to bring to action so just as lethal or likely to hit, but last to hit. That's why it's important to work out the shields, single hand vs. two handed and melee sequence valuation all as one ruleset.

 

[creativehum]

Well, to me the two parts of the statement are not separate as it highlights the changeable nature of the canon, how bits and pieces can be differently interpreted simply because one may not have all the bits that collectively add up to a 'right' answer, not to mention all the QA/inconsistencies that crop up, and so the canon that is canon, isn't really one version but ends up being an ATU per interpreter per content they know/can access.

Closer perhaps, and one which makes most adventures intelligible to each other which of course is the goal of the thing, but IMO it takes as much effort taking it all in as making one's own universe.

Another aspect I didn't explicitly highlight is that by tying new versions to specific milieus of the multi-Imperium arc, one might like a particular version of the rules but because they are tied into universe content you don't have just a generic do-anything tinker set anymore.

Kind of like a LEGO toy set that has new widgets, but is tied into some movie or character franchise so the toys end up running on rails back to that content rather then be freeform.

It sells LEGO sets, which keeps the lights on and gives some unique blocks to plug in, but is less a generic create your own toy.

Right. Yes. Okay, I get it now, and agree completely with every statement you made.

By making To Hit and To Damage orthogonal, you offer a systemic way to better deal with edge cases...

All of that is solid stuff. But, still, at the end of the day, one is going to have to figure out the odds to hit, the method of handling damage -- even if one is using Striker -- for the edge cases and new cases. (From fire damage to dropping boulders.)

For me, if it isn't about penetration damage, then the Referee will come up with a ruling on the fly. Classic Traveller was designed to be played that way, and I'm comfortable with it. The examples you offer fall under that same understanding.

But it's a good point and thanks for giving me something to chew on.

 

[pendragonman]

Say someone dropped a 5 foot piece of 3/8" rebar on a player from 5 meters, and the player is wearing cloth armor. Does it penetrate?

Doesn't matter. We have killed the guy who decided mixing the two systems of measure. Ft/lbs in a Newtons universe indeed.

 

[simonh]

If you want to be really reductionist, is there anything in CT that literally cannot be played while also having fun?

No.

I don't know how useful that answer is though.

Simon Hibbs

 

[robject]

Another aspect I didn't explicitly highlight is that by tying new versions to specific milieus of the multi-Imperium arc, one might like a particular version of the rules but because they are tied into universe content you don't have just a generic do-anything tinker set anymore.

Yeah, I don't like that at all. I like my Traveller rules to be Traveller, but "with setting on the side".

 

[Whipsnade]

Kind of like a LEGO toy set that has new widgets, but is tied into some movie or character franchise so the toys end up running on rails back to that content rather then be freeform.

It sells LEGO sets, which keeps the lights on and gives some unique blocks to plug in, but is less a generic create your own toy.

Good Sweet Strephon... I've been trying and failing for years to explain what you just did in two short sentences...

Thank you.

Expect to see your LEGO analogy a lot more often around the boards.

 

[atpollard]

Yeah, I don't like that at all. I like my Traveller rules to be Traveller, but "with setting on the side".

Yeah, sort of ... but I don't really like the whole rebellion and virus plots (not for love of the Imperium, they just don't interest me in how they play out as a RPG ... Dark Sun for D&D was the same way) but I really like a LOT of what appears in Hard Times (in MT). While not strictly CT, it points to something that is interesting, but would be hard to imagine being created completely setting independent.

 

[ffilz]

Kind of like a LEGO toy set that has new widgets, but is tied into some movie or character franchise so the toys end up running on rails back to that content rather then be freeform.

It sells LEGO sets, which keeps the lights on and gives some unique blocks to plug in, but is less a generic create your own toy.

And then there's those of us who take all those license specific parts and find ways to use them in whatever we are creating... Or we just set aside the few parts we don't want, or we sell them to someone who is a license fanatic (some Star Wars figures could be sold for more than the cost of the set they came in...).

Frank

 

[ffilz]

By making To Hit and To Damage orthogonal, you offer a systemic way to better deal with edge cases.

Consider something contrived such as a molotov cocktail. It's fair to argue that To Hit with a molotov cocktail is the same as To Hit with a hand grenade, a water ballon, or a baseball (let's not get pedantic on the details here).

Obviously, the "too damage" component are quite different for these different objects.

Similarly consider shooting a bullet. The "To Hit" for a bullet going 700m/s is likely to be the same regardless of the mass of the bullet (yes, there are other factors). Since marksmanship is basic ballistics, the To Hit for such a bullet would be similar. But clearly the To Pen difference between a 30 grain bullet and a 200 grain bullet are quite different.

Separating these makes it easier to systematically deal with extraordinary circumstances.

Say someone dropped a 5 foot piece of 3/8" rebar on a player from 5 meters, and the player is wearing cloth armor. Does it penetrate?

Well, if you work out the math (3/8" rebar is said to be .38 lb/foot), that piece of rebar has about 95% of the energy of a 165 grain .30 caliber bullet at 2800 fps, i.e. a 30'06. So, it has a similar chance to penetrate the armor. Did you think that the rebar would have the same energy as a high powered rifle? I myself wasn't sure. I knew it was dangerous, but maybe not this dangerous.

To some, that may be intuitive. To others, it may not. For game purposes it likely doesn't matter. But the point is that by separating to hit and to damage, the mechanism is in place to formalize it should you want to.

So for many every day applications, the 1 roll may well be sufficient. But for areas not directly covered by a rule or a chart, a mechanism exists to extrapolate the effect and, ostensibly, be consistent with results.

But wait, CT already separates the "to hit" from the "to damage"... Sure, it's done in one roll, but the modifiers are listed separately.

But to me, nitpicking over exactly how combat is resolved is a matter of preference and not playability.

Frank

 

[Hyphen]

Yeah, sort of ... but I don't really like the whole rebellion and virus plots (not for love of the Imperium, they just don't interest me in how they play out as a RPG ... Dark Sun for D&D was the same way) but I really like a LOT of what appears in Hard Times (in MT). While not strictly CT, it points to something that is interesting, but would be hard to imagine being created completely setting independent.

Whipsnade's "Wounded Colossus" is your friend, if you want an alternate "Hard Times" campaign.

 

[Whipsnade]

Whipsnade's "Wounded Colossus" is your friend, if you want an alternate "Hard Times" campaign.

I really need to rewrite that one day.

It was a clutch of Wordstar files on an old KayPro II CP/M machine that I found all those years ago. Just electronic scribbles and doodles really. I edited it all "on the fly" too, just reading the stuff as I wrote the posts to the TML.

It's repetitive and poorly organized but somehow it captured peoples' imaginations. Seven months back, I got an email asking about it sent to the old Hotmail account I used for the TML. What's that? Fifteen years after the fact?

 

[BlackBat242]

Wordstar files on an old KayPro II CP/M machine

Ah, the fond memories those words just brought up...

 

[McPerth]

To me, there are few unplayable things in CT, and, being mostly a MT user, maybe some of them are jsut skipped or forgot (though I reviewed my TTB and didn't shown up:

• Combat, if vehicles are involved
• Space combat: it's quite hard to dissable a ship, unless a critical is achieved. This, added to accelerating vectors, makes a large playing space needed (at least if more than two ships are involved), making it really unplayable.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Whipsnade's "Wounded Colossus" is your friend, if you want an alternate "Hard Times" campaign.

What is Whipsnade's wounded colossus?

Shabbat shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Whipsnade]

What is Whipsnade's wounded colossus?

You can find it here

It's an alternate timeline. People seem to be taken by the ideas in WoCo and, as the writer, I tend to agree that those ideas are interesting. The implementation of those ideas leaves a lot to be desired, however, and, as the writer, I can most certainly say that too!

Wounded Colossus began as a several ideas jotting down on a few notes and it shows. I was looking for something to rekindled my players' interest. I never got around to really fleshing it out.

My RPG group was slowly drifting apart. Changes in the players' lives were the biggest reason; finishing college, careers, marriage, all the usual things people in their mid-20s experience. A minor reason - most likely an excuse rather than real reason - was the course of the OTU. They'd grown increasingly turned off by the endless Rebellion, Hard Times, and all the rest. They even spoke about that when we'd talk about what sort of adventures and campaigns they'd be interested in. When GDW released sneak peeks of TNE and Virus, the disinterest turned to disgust.

As I noted, their complaints were more of an excuse than a real reason. It was changes in our lives that was pulling the group apart and not what was happening to Traveller, but they wouldn't have used that as an excuse if there wasn't a kernel of truth to it.

I thought an exciting new setting would be the answer. Not a return to the past, but not a seemingly static golden era either. I'd always been intrigued by Strephon's mental collapse on receiving the news of the Assassination. It was almost a suspender snapper for me(1). I decided to change that event and then mull over what followed.

Canon has Strephon receiving the news at Depot/Lishun on 181-1116. He dithers for a while and eventually collapses mentally. His various aides and advisors decide to withdraw to the Usdiki. By the time Strephon recovers, it's too late. Events are out of control and, more importantly, Strephon had run away rather than do his duty.

In Wounded Colossus sometime after receiving the news of the Assassination but before the decision is made to withdraw to Usdiki, Windhook arrives at the Depot(2). He's the naval lieutenant who was in Varian's and Lucan's quarters when all that nastiness went down. When Strephon hears Windhook's story Things Change.

Wounded Colossus is my not best guess as to how things would have changed. Instead, it's my best guess as to how things could have changed to create the setting I wanted.

One final comment. Years ago I announced that anything I post about Traveller is in the public domain for anyone to do anything they want with it. I've even sent emails restating that in response to various inquiries. I can't stop you from shoveling WoCo into the Wiki along with all the other fanon it resembles, but I would ask as a favor that you not do so. The Wiki deserves better.


1 - It remained a suspender snapper until GT:Nobles explained Strephon's upbringing and thus gave a better glimpse of his psyche.

2 - Using the best maps I had at the time, I figured it would take Windhook 8 jumps aboard jump6 IN couriers to reach the Depot in Lishun from Capital. I thought that would allow Windhook to reach Strephon and his entourage within a week or so of their receiving the news of the Assassination.

 

[aramis]

Ah, the fond memories those words just brought up...

Same here. I miss Wordstar. Not enough to run it in an emulator. I've some old files in Wordstar, too. Nothing close to as good as Wounded Collossus.

 

[Golan2072]

To me, there are few unplayable things in CT, and, being mostly a MT user, maybe some of them are jsut skipped or forgot (though I reviewed my TTB and didn't shown up:

• Combat, if vehicles are involved
• Space combat: it's quite hard to dissable a ship, unless a critical is achieved. This, added to accelerating vectors, makes a large playing space needed (at least if more than two ships are involved), making i treally unplayable.

Seconded.

The first point is especially pronounced when you use Book 4. This book is choke-full of what seems to be anti-armor heavy weapons, but no vehicle rules in sight to apply them to. Thus, what you get are various high-energy McGuffins with auto-hit auto-kill capabilities vs. infantry, and no heavy vehicles to use them against in a more game-meaningful manner.

 

[simonh]

But wait, CT already separates the "to hit" from the "to damage"... Sure, it's done in one roll, but the modifiers are listed separately.

But to me, nitpicking over exactly how combat is resolved is a matter of preference and not playability.

Well, all other things being equal fewer rolls for the same result is better than more rolls.

The way we used to play CT was we'd first roll to hit ignoring armour modifiers. If the roll was a hit we'd then look up the armour modifier, apply it and see if it was still a hit. So you got the feeling of two separate stages for to hit and penetration, without two actual rolls and you only have to worry about armour vs weapon modifiers if you needed to.

However for me, I prefer systems in which armour doesn't just switch on or off damage, but affects how much damage your take. It probably comes from the RuneQuest background. This necessarily involves a separate stop in combat resolution because the to-hit and to-damage steps are doing very different things, with different kinds of inputs and outputs.

Simon Hibbs

 

[ffilz]

I've gone through periods of my life where i preferred systems where armor partially reduces the damage done as a separate step from to hit. At least these days i now see that as a preference.

So far, i think the one omission that perhaps is a bit more than a preference is the lack of a vehicle combat system. But even that maybe is just a preference thing, maybe Traveller is just saying "tank combat isn't where the action is." Clearly folks saw this as one of the big missing pieces, I have a variety of magazine articles describing a vehicle combat system for use with Traveller. It is worth noting that Books 1-3 do NOT describe anything other than small arms for ground combat. Now there might be a bigger argument that Book 4 SHOULD have included a vehicle combat system since it introduced such a variety of weapons.

It's also worth pointing out that any game is going to be incomplete. It's impossible to present rules for every aspect of real life, and I submit that the close to that a system gets, the more unplayable it becomes just from the sheer amount of rules to manage.

Frank