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What do you think a space battle...

Sorry, but in a discussion making over generalized statements is asking for someone to poke holes in it... ;)

Also, only in point based wargames are there ever times in that "All Things Being Equal" applies in a situation whether it is any battle, ground, water, air or space. So, making over simplistic generalizations is actually counter productive by making people focus on the generalizations and not on actual Tactics, Strategy or Operational Art.
 
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Sorry, but in a discussion making over generalized statements is asking for someone to poke holes in it... ;)


Sorry, but this is a discussion about a generalized depiction of OTU space combat and not a discussion about whatever excuses and clauses you can dream up.

You'll notice that other posters quickly brought up quibbles with your quibbles.
 
You'll notice that other posters quickly brought up quibbles with your quibbles.

Really? Who? After I made the post in question exactly 3 people have made a post, including you. Two of those people agreed with me. So the only "Other Poster" that have "Quickly brought up quibbles of my quibbles" was yourself. ;)
 
Also, only in point based wargames are there ever times in that "All Things Being Equal" applies in a situation whether it is any battle, ground, water, air or space. So, making over simplistic generalizations is actually counter productive by making people focus on the generalizations and not on actual Tactics, Strategy or Operational Art.


Didn't see this laughable addendum...

The thread isn't discussing wargames. The OP asked people what "... a space battle in Traveller might look like?" He didn't ask what sort of situations Traveller's various space combat games produce because each of those games produces very different situations. Space combat according to Mayday is hugely different from HG2 and both of those are very different from BL.

Generalizations are the subject under discussion here because the only thing you can "learn" from examining a wargame is what works in that specific wargame.

As for your asinine references to "tactics", "strategy", and "operational art", I've been playing wargames since the Nixon Administration and one of the first things I learned was that anyone who felt a game taught them anything about tactics, strategy, or operations was a self-deluded moron. I've sat across gaming tables from purported adults wearing military caps who actually believed they could have commanded the Afrika Corp or Desert Rats better than Rommel of Montgomery simply because they'd cracked the system behind an Avalon Hill game.
 
The thread isn't discussing wargames. The OP asked people what "... a space battle in Traveller might look like?" He didn't ask what sort of situations Traveller's various space combat games produce because each of those games produces very different situations. Space combat according to Mayday is hugely different from HG2 and both of those are very different from BL.

Generalizations are the subject under discussion here because the only thing you can "learn" from examining a wargame is what works in that specific wargame.

My reply that started this particular exchange wasn't an answer to the OP but to a post with a vastly oversimplifying generalization.

As for your asinine references to "tactics", "strategy", and "operational art", I've been playing wargames since the Nixon Administration

That's nice..
and one of the first things I learned was that anyone who felt a game taught them anything about tactics, strategy, or operations was a self-deluded moron.
Wargames DO Teach basics of Strategy, Tactics or Operations, which is why the people who teach those subjects use them as teaching tools. The important thing to know is exactly what you say below
I've sat across gaming tables from purported adults wearing military caps who actually believed they could have commanded the Afrika Corp or Desert Rats better than Rommel of Montgomery simply because they'd cracked the system behind an Avalon Hill game.
Exactly. There's a big difference over someone who uses a game to illustrate and teach Strategy, Tactics or Operations and someone who thinks that being able to win at one particular Game makes one an expert. That was the point I was making about oversimplification/generalizations. :)

I have never claimed to be an expert, but I know the difference between real world tactics and a game system... ;)
 
Re-read the thread.



PFVA63 suggested C3I would be more important of the issues you listed and Wil pointed out that better commanders don't necessarily have better crews. Both added quibbles to your quibbles.



Sorry, but no.

Obviously someone failed their "Reading Comprehension Skill Check" and the funny part is that being human both of us will think it was the other... ;)
 
C3I isn't always a crew factor, but it often is.

What a battle looks like will vary based upon who, why, and where...

A defense of a mainworld with dirtside defenses will look quite different that one without them.

A fleet-attrition battle as opposed to an invasion landing approach battle will be quite different... the former can afford to be a tight-knot high speed, which picks a single high value target and dumps upon it; the latter must include a low-speed battle (though the initial pass might not be).
 
Not always. You telling me that a larger force of TL10 vs a smaller force of TL15 ships is always going to win? I don't accept that.

Fine. "Superior" force, for whatever definition of superior you want to come up with. The specific point being that it's an issue of sheer numbers, and the environment itself offer zero or few force multipliers that one might expect in a typical land engagement where defenders can have great advantages over attackers.

Only in deep space. In an inner system there are multiple objects that create overlapping gravity wells which lead to Lagrange points and other hazards that good commander can take advantage of.

Lagrange points? You think a ship with a 4G drive gives a flying potato about a Lagrange point? Maybe if you're using thrusters little improved over the aerosol spray can, but Traveller ships have ample, cheap thrust. Getting a free hex or two of velocity via a slingshot may have it's applications, but in the big picture, it's not going to be a major factor in an engagement of any real size. The guns still bear, the ships are still in range of each other. Unless being close to the planet blinds the other ships sensors (and in contrast does not blind your own), there's pretty much minimal tactical value.

You are also leaving out the skill of the commanders.

A commander might well improve the capability of a specific ship by a Diff mod or so, but it's not necessarily enough to turn the tide in any particular engagement. If we're talking mano a mano, ship on ship, sure it can be an advantage. But in the end, in a fleet engagement the contribution is marginal, and one on one good commanders die from lucky hits as readily as bad commanders.

A commanders value may be in being able to rally the crew when things turn sour, but as a general rule, naval ships don't have "morale" like infantry squads do, and ships don't really degrade over time, they're either mostly functional or combat ineffective all at once.

Also, just because your sensors can detect moving objects at long range doesn't mean you know what they are. Is that formation of IR Sources that just made a jump into your home outer system Large Freighters and Tankers masquerading as a Fleet? Or is it a group of cruisers? Based on that information do you start maneuvers now, or do you wait until those units get closer in system for ID before maneuvering your defense?

Who knows? Who cares? Those are pre-combat decision points. Send out a scout.

On the other side of the coin when you jump into a system, you detect some ships in orbit of the GG and the primary world. Do you commit to a burn toward the GG with most of your Fleet? or are those ships in orbit of the main system a Fleet strong enough and fast enough to punch holes in a raiding ship group heading for the GG?

Depends on what the initial target was based on intelligence estimates that are at least 2 weeks old. Are you hitting "old men and children" or did a SS Panzer Division suddenly show up making your "thunderclap surprise" a "Bridge too far". Whatever your target is, you're going to jump in as close as you can taking in to consideration the 100D limit and however long it takes to assemble the fleet and implied travel times of responders to initial entry (I'll refer you to the other 10,000 post message threads about jump travel to discern how tight a fleet can jump in to a system). If you can jump in at the same time, with everyone arriving at once, you'll hit as close to the 100D limit as you practically can. The longer it takes for the fleet to arrive, the farther out you'd enter so you can assemble your forces safely.

For reference, at roughly their closest point, it take almost 70hrs (~3 days) for a fleet to get from Earth to Jupiter with a 4G drive. In TNE it would be far longer since in TNE ships are fuel limited and won't burn the entire trip.

The other ships at the other part of the system likely won't even be a factor in the initial assault unless it takes days to assemble the attack force. Then you may as well consider the two in system fleets as a single force since they'll likely rally together to meet the threat.

Single ships die when up against larger forces. (Reference "Superior(tm)" force always wins.) There's little motivation to split up your forces when attacking. You want to consolidate as quickly as possible. "Skirmishers" don't make any sense, that's an intelligence operation. A smaller fleet can delay a larger fleet, maybe, but if the sizes are disproportionate, not for very long. The main fleet may have its vector plotted for its ultimate destination and simply march along that path, pivoting the ship to bring its guns to bear to attack the delaying fleet while flying right by or through it, never even slowing down.

If an attacking fleet has a vector magnitude of, say, 20 hexes (2 light seconds per turn), they'll be in and out of range of an intercepting fleet for only a couple of rounds of fire. Better for the delaying fleet to grok the attack vector, park on the side, and catch up from behind, but then they'll be clawing in to range and taking fire. (If I can hit you, you can hit me.) At best they'll consume missile stores of the attacking fleet while the larger force eats the smaller force. Not sure if that action is worth the cost.

But this was all gone over in the intelligence briefings, where the timing of the attack, force composition, mission parameters etc. were determined. And has nothing to do with combat.

That's operations.
 
Lagrange points? You think a ship with a 4G drive gives a flying potato about a Lagrange point? Maybe if you're using thrusters little improved over the aerosol spray can, but Traveller ships have ample, cheap thrust. Getting a free hex or two of velocity via a slingshot may have it's applications, but in the big picture, it's not going to be a major factor in an engagement of any real size. The guns still bear, the ships are still in range of each other. Unless being close to the planet blinds the other ships sensors (and in contrast does not blind your own), there's pretty much minimal tactical value.

EVERY Factor/Variable counts. A good commander is one that can adjust on the fly to take advantage of them.

A commander might well improve the capability of a specific ship by a Diff mod or so, but it's not necessarily enough to turn the tide in any particular engagement. If we're talking mano a mano, ship on ship, sure it can be an advantage. But in the end, in a fleet engagement the contribution is marginal, and one on one good commanders die from lucky its as readily as bad commanders.
Only a very poor commander would split his ships so that they don't work together. A Fleet that cooperates and moves/fights in formation is greater than its individual ships. That kind of teamwork and coordination takes a good commander.

A commanders value may be in being able to rally the crew when things turn sour, but as a general rule, naval ships don't have "morale" like infantry squads do, and ships don't really degrade over time, they're either mostly functional or combat ineffective all at once.
LOL! You are so, so wrong. Any military unit, especially ship's crew has morale factor. And of course ships degrade over time. I was a tech in the US Navy for 6 years and my last duty station was at a ship repair facility fixing ship's electronics that had "degraded" over time and it was extremely obvious which ship's company was good at maintenance and which ones weren't...


Who knows? Who cares? Those are pre-combat decision points. Send out a scout.
Those "pre-combat" decisions affect deployments and setup the battle. Make the wrong decisions and you can win or lose the battle.

But this was all gone over in the intelligence briefings, where the timing of the attack, force composition, mission parameters etc. were determined. And has nothing to do with combat.

That's operations.

Again, being able to adjust a plan on the fly is the mark of a good commander, which can make or break a naval engagement... ;)
 
A commander might well improve the capability of a specific ship by a Diff mod or so, but it's not necessarily enough to turn the tide in any particular engagement. If we're talking mano a mano, ship on ship, sure it can be an advantage. But in the end, in a fleet engagement the contribution is marginal, and one on one good commanders die from lucky hits as readily as bad commanders.

A commanders value may be in being able to rally the crew when things turn sour, but as a general rule, naval ships don't have "morale" like infantry squads do, and ships don't really degrade over time, they're either mostly functional or combat ineffective all at once.

I believe a good comander might be quite important, as HG2 rules stand.

As told in another post, in the eternal dicussion in this forum about hamsters/gebils overhelming a single BB, if the BB has a good commander (let's say with ship's tactics 5) its computer rate modifier may well change the tide.

We discussed this a little in this other post (and some subesquent ones): http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=411963&postcount=41
 
It's also important to note that the better commander doesn't always have the better skilled crews, and crew skill matters, as well, in an idealized situation. Even given total computer control, the side with better ability to maintain the craft is more likely to triumph.

Hi,

That's a great point, too. It kind of reminds me a little bit of when I used to play "Wooden Ships and Iron Men" where they had crew quality effects and such.
 
EVERY Factor/Variable counts. A good commander is one that can adjust on the fly to take advantage of them.

But not all variables have the same impact on the outcome in the broad sense. A single ship commander has sway over a specific ship, in a fleet there are potentially lots of ships. The more ships in the engagement, the lower the impact of a specific quality commander to the outcome of the engagement.

In BR the fleet admiral brings a specific benefit to the battle since his Fleet Tactics skill affects the size of the individual task forces, and task forces fire as a unit. A higher Fleet Tactics skill makes the individual fire event potentially more powerful. But that's simply manifested through the mechanics of the rule set. You can have a great Admiral and play poorly, since the "real" commander is the player.

LOL! You are so, so wrong. Any military unit, especially ship's crew has morale factor. And of course ships degrade over time. I was a tech in the US Navy for 6 years and my last duty station was at a ship repair facility fixing ship's electronics that had "degraded" over time and it was extremely obvious which ship's company was good at maintenance and which ones weren't...

Save that none of the systems I'm aware of model crew morale at all. The closest you get is overall ship maintenance and its impact on overall ship health before combat. But I made the basic assumption that we're talking about maintained fleets with competent crews and capable leadership in a broad sense rather than the impact of Jim Kirk and Scotty.

Those "pre-combat" decisions affect deployments and setup the battle. Make the wrong decisions and you can win or lose the battle.

Of course, particularly if the battle is potentially close. But the tactical options available to a player are limited, and they tend to be overshadowed especially by overall fleet composition ("superior" fleet wins). Combatants with cannon in a bull ring. In those circumstances, there is very little you can do besides decide which ships to kill and it what order.

Again, being able to adjust a plan on the fly is the mark of a good commander, which can make or break a naval engagement... ;)

But that's up to the player, the rulesets can't model "adjusting on the fly". And the game simply offers little to the player in terms of actual options. Most of the options are pre decided for them based on ships and buildout. About the only thing the player can control is range, and whatever benefits that range gives Player A are given to Player B. After that it's mostly initiative, which is not a skill at all, but a coin flip.

And that brings us back to Book 5 -- which is all about fleet build out and range, and that's about it.

In Star Fleet Battles, a very rich tactical game, I've seen a skilled player take a Destroyer and use it to trash a poor players Dreadnought. The DN, a ship twice as big and armed in all regards, literally had no chance as the DD danced around it and shredded it. The DD took no major damage. In Traveller that can not happen, in general. The DN will eat the DD and not even slow down, regardless of the player controlling the DD. The only positive result would be if the DD was faster and simply ran away. Other than that, the engagement was pre-determined.

This relationship scales in Traveller. Only when equal forces clash is there a chance for player skill to have any great affect on the outcome, but once a side gains advantage, through luck or skill, it becomes extremely difficult for the underdog to climb out of the hole and prevail. Superior forces win. When they start equal, it's only a matter of time until one force becomes superior. I think when equal forces clash, luck is the 800lb gorilla in the room, the players come along to mostly roll the dice.

Yes, I'm talking generalities. Someone wanted an idea of what Traveller combat would look like, and someone else wanted a reality to base the foundation upon. I selected TNE as the reality and provided my point of view. I'm talking about the forest, with broad strokes. You're talking pine cones and the composition of the loam on the ground.

But pine cones or no, put a match with enough heat to it, the forest will burn.
 
Hi, I suspect this may have been asked in the past, but based on some recent discussions here, I'm interested in seeing what everyone thinks a space battle in Traveller might look like?...

What it might BE like is an interesting discussion with some good arguments for all views. What it might LOOK like ...

I imagine, especially in the era of meson spinal weapons, from the character's view very much like being in a submarine: surrounded by hull and totally dependent on your machines to tell you where things were and what was happening around you, focusing on your job and trying hard not to wonder when the blow that kills you will hit.
 
What it might BE like is an interesting discussion with some good arguments for all views. What it might LOOK like ...

I imagine, especially in the era of meson spinal weapons, from the character's view very much like being in a submarine: surrounded by hull and totally dependent on your machines to tell you where things were and what was happening around you, focusing on your job and trying hard not to wonder when the blow that kills you will hit.

Hi,

I suspect that you're probably right about that. while I always seem to draw ships with large viewports for the bridge, I kind of suspect that in battle, the bridge space would likely be "buttoned up", with maybe sliding "blast" covers over any view screen, kind of similar to some stuff I've seen for the new USN DDG1000 destroyer.

On a different note, here are two images that I put together of our solar system to help give an idea of the scales involved in trying to defend a "solar system". The 1st shows the inner system, out to the orbit of Jupiter, with everything kind of forced into a notional hexagonal grid, where each hex is about 0.25 AU (or roughly the distance you would cover on a 1 G-day burn - if I did all the math right).

The outer system is shown on the next figure where the hexes have been enlarged to 5x the width of the other image. (As such each hex is about 1.25AU or equal to about a 5 G-day burn).

Regards

PF


 
Much depends on stealth. If all combatants are visible in system and stealth is impossible, then both sides are aware of each other hours, perhaps even a day or so before the battle. Most battles will be by consent, much like those fought in the ancient world where huge armies gathered together at battlefields on crucial strategic locations. These armies had been aware of each others positions (in most cases) hours or days before the battle.
 
Hi,

If battles only occur by consent it kind of re-raises the question to me then how to defend a solar system (or in this case our Solar system).

Specifically, since there appear to be 4 gas giants plus Earth, as well as the possibility that outposts, colonies or at least mining and manufacturing facilities being built on Mars and/or in the Asteroid Belt at some point in time in a Traveler type setting, would it make sense to try and split your defenses between all these locations and run the risk that a strong invasion force could overrun the local defenses at any one of these 5 to 7 locations before any other defending reinforcements could arrive at the point of invasion, or do you concentrate your forces and cede to any invader the ability to refuel and set up a beach head at any one of the gas giants?

I'd guess that a lot will depend on how strong an invasion you might expect, but if for example, say you have a fleet of two battleships, a dozen cruisers, two dozen other escorts and two dozen additional system defense boats and there is the possibility that an enemy may enter in system with anything from just a few scouts up to a force of similar tonnage to your defending fleet, to me it becomes really hard to figure out what might be the best approach, since the distances involved in system (and hence to time it would take for different groups of defenders to travel between locations to provide mutual support) can be so great?
 
Hi,

If battles only occur by consent it kind of re-raises the question to me then how to defend a solar system (or in this case our Solar system).

Specifically, since there appear to be 4 gas giants plus Earth, as well as the possibility that outposts, colonies or at least mining and manufacturing facilities being built on Mars and/or in the Asteroid Belt at some point in time in a Traveler type setting, would it make sense to try and split your defenses between all these locations and run the risk that a strong invasion force could overrun the local defenses at any one of these 5 to 7 locations before any other defending reinforcements could arrive at the point of invasion, or do you concentrate your forces and cede to any invader the ability to refuel and set up a beach head at any one of the gas giants?

I'd guess that a lot will depend on how strong an invasion you might expect, but if for example, say you have a fleet of two battleships, a dozen cruisers, two dozen other escorts and two dozen additional system defense boats and there is the possibility that an enemy may enter in system with anything from just a few scouts up to a force of similar tonnage to your defending fleet, to me it becomes really hard to figure out what might be the best approach, since the distances involved in system (and hence to time it would take for different groups of defenders to travel between locations to provide mutual support) can be so great?

First, I don't completely buy the "by consent" notion. If everyone can see everyone else, and side A runs 5g, and side B runs 6g, guess who's most likely to decide whether an engagement occurs.

Second, it's rarely a good idea to split your force. Takes unusual circumstances and a bit of luck. A talented commander can recognize when it's the right plan; a talentless or luckless commander will see each separate parts of his force defeated in turn. Unless your situation is such that you can do it and regroup before the enemy can take advantage of it, or your opponent's in such a bad state that you can still beat him with either force, it's never a good idea to do that where the enemy can see you doing it.

That doesn't mean everything is in one place. Small covering forces at secondary strategic targets can keep the enemy from grabbing something on the cheap, can possibly harass an attacker if circumstances favor, or may force him to leave units behind when his main force moves on to the next objective in the system (think SDBs deep in the gas giant atmosphere). However, if we're assuming everyone can see everything, then having your forces dispersed among several locations just means he concentrates on one and overwhelms that force, costing you ships.

The best approach generally is to protect the largest concentration of people. He can't destroy a gas giant, and given a choice between protecting mining outposts and protecting the industry and resoources of the mainworld, you'd best protect the mainworld. Do what you can to fend off skirmishers elsewhere, but your priority is the mainworld. There's no consent there: if you decline to do battle there, you might as well retreat from the system and regroup elsewhere, 'cause he's won that round.
 
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