What is a Lawyer?
- Thread starter infojunky
- Start date
I'd say Legal-3 in any case, as Admin englobes too many things...
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I was just dealing with that question in the context of the heretical Collapse thread.
I decided it is
Persuade-1
Admin-3
EDU-8+
The familiarity mechanic would deal with such things as local planetary law, criminal law, interstellar contract law, etc.
A cynical person might alter Persuade-1 to Deception-1. But I wasn't planning on it.
I decided it is
Persuade-1
Admin-3
EDU-8+
The familiarity mechanic would deal with such things as local planetary law, criminal law, interstellar contract law, etc.
A cynical person might alter Persuade-1 to Deception-1. But I wasn't planning on it.
Same here. It's noted in the article on High Justice that soc 10+ is required to practice in the SS and Sector courts.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
The issue is that there is no way to get the "Legal" skill. This would strictly be an NPC thing since the skill is not on any chart.
No Advocate or Legal skill in CT, even in Sup 4. The closest we get is a combination of Liaison, Interrogate, and Admin.
No Advocate or Legal skill in CT, even in Sup 4. The closest we get is a combination of Liaison, Interrogate, and Admin.
Admin-3 in a court
Admin-4 in a Imperial Court
No mention of Soc at all in the article.
But, it was the reference I was looking for. As it gives a some form of the the idea I was playing with.
As for the other skills mentioned neither appear in book 1, I am trying to keep the skill proliferation to a minimum.....
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Which relegates it to the NPCs... JTAS 14 High Justice uses Admin; in all post CT editions, Legal is separated out.
Admin 3 is needed to practice law in the SS court, admin 4 in the Sector and domain levels, per JTAS 14.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I think you are trying to do what other editions of Traveller has done (starting with DGP's UTP for CT) and made a level of skill roughly equivalent among all skills.
The rules in CT show that is false thinking.
Why?
The weight of a skill level does not remain constant among all skills throws.
Let's take some examples from the CT rules to illustrate my point...
When making a gun combat attack throw, a weapon skill level provides a +1 DM per level on that throw. You're throwing 2D6, looking for 8+ with a +1 DM per skill level (plus other modifiers).
Switch to the Vacc Suit skill. A typical use of that skill is, when something happens, to avoid that incident and remain in control--to not go spinning off into space. This is a 2D6 roll, look for 10+. But, a character is given a +4 DM per skill level.
This shows how important expertise with a Vacc Suit is when going into freefall. And, if there are no other modifiers, a Vacc Suit-2 skill level makes the task a 100% success every time.
Obviously, a character with no Vacc Suit skill will have a hard time in Zero-G. Vacc Suit-1 makes the character fairly competent. And Vacc Suit-2 makes the character a master in Zero-G that never has an issue.
What happens when there is a engineering problem on the ship? The Engineer character uses his skill in Engineering at a +2 DM per skill level, when he tries to fix the issue.
Next, take a look a the Low Passage rule--the one for bringing a character out of low berth. The roll is 2D6, looking for 5+. A character gets a +1 on this roll if he has Medical-2 or better.
He's not getting a +2 DM. He's getting half that. And, if he's got Medical-5, he still only gets a +1 DM on the throw.
Point being: In Classic Traveller (and in no other version of Traveller, I believe), a skill level in one skill cannot be compared to that of another skill.
When creating a task for a player, the Ref needs to evaluate how important a skill level is to the specific task at hand, then create modifiers based on that decision.
To answer your question in the OP, it is up to you.
For me to say one way or the other, I'd have to know more about your objective. Are you trying to create Lawyer as a skill? Or, are you going to allow skill in Admin to cover whatever you need a lawyer for?
I am cutting off the rest as mostly irrelevant to the question. As I wasn't looking for your meta-description of CT's skills. And more the base skill for a character with the Title Lawyer.
I took a side trip into MT's skill list, where Legal defaults to Admin-1, Thus taking it another way one could see Admin defaulting to Legal-1. Using the equivalences idea set out in Book 1.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
You asked. I was giving you my take. I think what I said is very relevant to your question.
If you just need a character to swim his way through a trial or bureaucracy, I'd just use Admin skill and be done with it. I wouldn't worry about who is technically a lawyer and who isn't.
If you are creating a Lawyer skill for your game, then I would first read the entry for the Legal skill in Merchant Prince (which specifically says that the skill is not meant to be used as a lawyer) to run the new skill in a similar fashion.
For the new Lawyer skill, though, I'd say Lawyer-0 is a clerk, and actual licensed lawyers have expertise of either Lawyer-1 or Lawyer-2.
I'd run the skill similar to how the Vacc Suit or Engineering skills are generally run. Each level of Lawyer skill would grant a +2 or higher DM on a throw to win a case.
Something like this:
Character has Lawyer-2 skill.
The difficulty of the task to win the case is set by the roll of the opposing lawyer. Whomever rolls higher wins the case.
Each lawyer gets +3 DM per Lawyer skill level on the throw. Add a +1 DM for the lawyer with the highest EDU.
Example:
Bill the Lawyer has EDU-8 and Lawyer-1.
Terrance, the Big Time Lawyer, has EDU-C and Lawyer-2.
Bill rolls 2D6, getting a 10 +3 (skill) = 13.
Terrance rolls 2D6, getting a 4 +7 (skill and EDU bonus) = 11.
Bill pulls off a miracle case!
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Does the Legal skill in MT also state, as it does in Merchant Prince, that the Legal skill is not meant to be used as a Lawyer skill?
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmm, depends on your definition of 'post-CT'.
LBB7 has Legal. I had included it in my 'extra' INT 8+ table as part of the LBB4-8 skill effort to allow CT gen to include the chance for the extra skills while keeping the skillflation down.
To me LBB7 is a CT book, even if it was influenced by a slide to the soon-to-be MT version.
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
You could stretch this out, if you wanted to, creating an engrossing trial. Add DMs for evidence introduced.
A trial could be, say 1D6 weeks long. Roll as above each week, and keep track of the total wins for each side. The side with the most weekly wins will win the case.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
There is a whole trial mechanism in MgT1E Agents, where there is an evidence gathering phase, witnesses and material, etc., and the number and quality of admissible evidence influences the final outcome. The final outcome then feeds into sentencing if guilty, depending on seriousness of crime and modifiers.
It's a bit too roll-playing for the CT crowd I think, but is a good overall model for making an adventure of a trial- particularly if it's a 'setup' and the players are either trying to save or ensure a guilty verdict by preserving/destroying evidence/witnesses the opposition is active for/against.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You understand the legal process, but don't know which page(s) of your law library the laws and precedents are indexed.
OK, was a more curt than I meant.
No I am not trying add any skills, just establishing a basic skill based qualification for a professional title.
If I were doing up a leagal system and Lawyers I probably would start by looking on the Legal system and process of Commonwealth countries, though some of the systems of mainline Europe are attractive as well.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
The reason I went with this:
Lawyer-0 = Law Clerk
Lawyer-1 = Lawyer
Lawyer-2 = Experienced Lawyer
is two-fold. First, CT characters have few skills. Where, in some games, everything a character knows is represented on his skill sheet, in CT, it is just the areas where the character excels that are listed. The character has know-how and expertise in a lot of different areas that are not listed on his sheet.
So, that makes me take the requirements down a notch.
Second, there are a lot of skills that can support a Lawyer, like the Legal skill from Merchant Prince, or the Admin skill. Some parts of a lawyers job will rely more heavily on those skills than it will on just the Lawyer skill. On certain worlds, Forgery or Bribery may be very important to a lawyer's job.
Maybe a +3 DM per skill level is too high. It can be debated. But, certainly, it should be a +2 DM per skill level.
In this game of stingy skill awards, that will make being a Lawyer easier to obtain (more realistic in this sense) than if I said it takes a whopping Lawyer-3 to be a lawyer. With what I've said, it's more in line with CT rules, making Lawyer-1 characters lawyers.
And, it's fair, too. Maybe a person with Admin or Legal skill could try to do what a lawyer does, but those skills don't get the big +2 or +3 DM. That makes actually having the lawyer skill important (just like Vacc Suit).
Lawyer-0 = Law Clerk
Lawyer-1 = Lawyer
Lawyer-2 = Experienced Lawyer
is two-fold. First, CT characters have few skills. Where, in some games, everything a character knows is represented on his skill sheet, in CT, it is just the areas where the character excels that are listed. The character has know-how and expertise in a lot of different areas that are not listed on his sheet.
So, that makes me take the requirements down a notch.
Second, there are a lot of skills that can support a Lawyer, like the Legal skill from Merchant Prince, or the Admin skill. Some parts of a lawyers job will rely more heavily on those skills than it will on just the Lawyer skill. On certain worlds, Forgery or Bribery may be very important to a lawyer's job.
Maybe a +3 DM per skill level is too high. It can be debated. But, certainly, it should be a +2 DM per skill level.
In this game of stingy skill awards, that will make being a Lawyer easier to obtain (more realistic in this sense) than if I said it takes a whopping Lawyer-3 to be a lawyer. With what I've said, it's more in line with CT rules, making Lawyer-1 characters lawyers.
And, it's fair, too. Maybe a person with Admin or Legal skill could try to do what a lawyer does, but those skills don't get the big +2 or +3 DM. That makes actually having the lawyer skill important (just like Vacc Suit).
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I was surprised at your come back, after asking the forum for input...but, forget about it. No worries.
In my opinion, you would need both the basic Administration skill (to deal with bureaucracy) from Characters & Combat and the Legal skill (general knowledge of laws) from Merchant Prince in order to create a lawyer. A trial lawyer would benefit from Liaison skill (dealing with others), also from Merchant Prince.
