What is really realistic?

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Moral: Gamers (sedentary low STR, low DEX, low END types) should not be engaged in physical hijinks while concentrating on a TV screen.[/QB]

Well, no - most of the injuries with a Wii are caused by people being dumb. It's actually quite fun to play - just give eachother lots of room, make sure you've got a firm grip on the controllers and be aware of what's around you. If you do that, you'll be fine. And god knows it's better for you than just passively sitting on a couch giving yourself thumb-cramps playing on a gamepad.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Moral: Gamers (sedentary low STR, low DEX, low END types) should not be engaged in physical hijinks while concentrating on a TV screen.[/QB]

Well, no - most of the injuries with a Wii are caused by people being dumb. It's actually quite fun to play - just give eachother lots of room, make sure you've got a firm grip on the controllers and be aware of what's around you. If you do that, you'll be fine. And god knows it's better for you than just passively sitting on a couch giving yourself thumb-cramps playing on a gamepad.

 

[ravells]

"But.... Honey... come on.... be reasonable.... he had a Gauss Pistol!"

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me... Back in the days when I was addicted to er..used to play Air Warrior and then Aces High (WW2 Flight Sims), I used to tell my girlfriend who complained about the time I spent on it that if it wasn't for people like me keeping Britain's skies safe she'd be living under the Nazi jackboot. She didn't look convinced.

Ravs

 

[ravells]

"But.... Honey... come on.... be reasonable.... he had a Gauss Pistol!"

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me... Back in the days when I was addicted to er..used to play Air Warrior and then Aces High (WW2 Flight Sims), I used to tell my girlfriend who complained about the time I spent on it that if it wasn't for people like me keeping Britain's skies safe she'd be living under the Nazi jackboot. She didn't look convinced.

Ravs

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Well, no - most of the injuries with a Wii are caused by people being dumb. It's actually quite fun to play - just give eachother lots of room, make sure you've got a firm grip on the controllers and be aware of what's around you. If you do that, you'll be fine. And god knows it's better for you than just passively sitting on a couch giving yourself thumb-cramps playing on a gamepad. [/QB]

Hmm, not necessarily. I've played it a fair bit lately. I hurt myself in boxing and in baseball. In boxing, because some of the motions I had to make to get the punches I wanted off were uncomfortable (and the system's hysteresis was frustrating) and in baseball because when I swing a bat or pitch (I used to play in 4 leagues at once), I have a certain natural resistance from the weight of the ball or the bat that isn't there with the light weight Wii-mote. I think my baseball pain was a result of hyperextension. I imagine if I frittered with the sensitivity levels, I could make a twitch do the same thing as a full swing, but then what's the point? But it is quite easily possible to get, at the very least, muscle strains and joint stress. People don't normally warmup for video games...

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Well, no - most of the injuries with a Wii are caused by people being dumb. It's actually quite fun to play - just give eachother lots of room, make sure you've got a firm grip on the controllers and be aware of what's around you. If you do that, you'll be fine. And god knows it's better for you than just passively sitting on a couch giving yourself thumb-cramps playing on a gamepad. [/QB]

Hmm, not necessarily. I've played it a fair bit lately. I hurt myself in boxing and in baseball. In boxing, because some of the motions I had to make to get the punches I wanted off were uncomfortable (and the system's hysteresis was frustrating) and in baseball because when I swing a bat or pitch (I used to play in 4 leagues at once), I have a certain natural resistance from the weight of the ball or the bat that isn't there with the light weight Wii-mote. I think my baseball pain was a result of hyperextension. I imagine if I frittered with the sensitivity levels, I could make a twitch do the same thing as a full swing, but then what's the point? But it is quite easily possible to get, at the very least, muscle strains and joint stress. People don't normally warmup for video games...

 

[Mickazoid]

imho, sports are sports, video games are video games - and turning either into the other is generally a bad idea. Yes, I even mean Intellivision baseball (if I hadn't stopped I'd probably have permanently dented my thumb by now).

To have this kind of level of injury reported in conjunction with a product, and to have the Wii brand so correspondingly associated with injury, is a major f*ck-up by Nintendo. Apparently, there was little concerned effort spent on understanding the real-world impacts of controllers and games like these. Hopefully the next system will have at least a bare minimum of 'wisdom' included in with all that 'intelligence'.

 

[Mickazoid]

imho, sports are sports, video games are video games - and turning either into the other is generally a bad idea. Yes, I even mean Intellivision baseball (if I hadn't stopped I'd probably have permanently dented my thumb by now).

To have this kind of level of injury reported in conjunction with a product, and to have the Wii brand so correspondingly associated with injury, is a major f*ck-up by Nintendo. Apparently, there was little concerned effort spent on understanding the real-world impacts of controllers and games like these. Hopefully the next system will have at least a bare minimum of 'wisdom' included in with all that 'intelligence'.

 

[Malenfant]

The trick is to just be aware that it's a video game. I played all the sports (didn't do Boxing) on the Wii with no problem. If people go into it expecting resistance where there isn't any, or putting too much swing or overcompensating then that's not really Nintendo's fault at all, it's the fault of the people who aren't grokking the fact that it's simply not the real thing. You have to adjust to the game - once you've done that then you are much less likely to hurt yourself.

Admittedly the boxing one looked a bit strenuous, but the others are much less crazy

 

[Malenfant]

The trick is to just be aware that it's a video game. I played all the sports (didn't do Boxing) on the Wii with no problem. If people go into it expecting resistance where there isn't any, or putting too much swing or overcompensating then that's not really Nintendo's fault at all, it's the fault of the people who aren't grokking the fact that it's simply not the real thing. You have to adjust to the game - once you've done that then you are much less likely to hurt yourself.

Admittedly the boxing one looked a bit strenuous, but the others are much less crazy

 

[far-trader]

Not a Wii fan, however...

I think you're being too kind to the players who are having these problems Mal. Like you say, they just don't "get" that swinging harder won't make the game work better. I'd call them something that rhymes with Wiidiots. I have run into the same kind of player no matter what the interface. They seem to think if they just pound the controller harder it will improve the damage that their virtual gun does. And if they can't hit anything it's the fault of the joystick and the controller deserves to be hurled across the room, after which they expect it to work better.

And Micki you credit this type of player far too much Intelligence and Wisdom, even if you were to assign them both a 1 in CT parlance. I'm sure Nintendo did all kinds of testing, with "normal" game players, and found no problems or deficiencies. I suspect the strap may have been a result of early testing and sweaty grips but I doubt they saw anyone throwing the things through monitors or bouncing them off buddies. So I'm sure Nintendo did exercise considered Wisdom, failing only to account for the exceedingly low level of same in some players. And it's too bad but you seem to have it right that they are taking all the flack for it instead of the Wiidiots (I'm starting to like that word).

It was inevitible that the same type of player who blames and abuses every other type of interface would end up throwing a Wii wand across the room, and blame the strap for being deficient, even (or especially) if they weren't using it at the time.

 

[far-trader]

Not a Wii fan, however...

I think you're being too kind to the players who are having these problems Mal. Like you say, they just don't "get" that swinging harder won't make the game work better. I'd call them something that rhymes with Wiidiots. I have run into the same kind of player no matter what the interface. They seem to think if they just pound the controller harder it will improve the damage that their virtual gun does. And if they can't hit anything it's the fault of the joystick and the controller deserves to be hurled across the room, after which they expect it to work better.

And Micki you credit this type of player far too much Intelligence and Wisdom, even if you were to assign them both a 1 in CT parlance. I'm sure Nintendo did all kinds of testing, with "normal" game players, and found no problems or deficiencies. I suspect the strap may have been a result of early testing and sweaty grips but I doubt they saw anyone throwing the things through monitors or bouncing them off buddies. So I'm sure Nintendo did exercise considered Wisdom, failing only to account for the exceedingly low level of same in some players. And it's too bad but you seem to have it right that they are taking all the flack for it instead of the Wiidiots (I'm starting to like that word).

It was inevitible that the same type of player who blames and abuses every other type of interface would end up throwing a Wii wand across the room, and blame the strap for being deficient, even (or especially) if they weren't using it at the time.

 

[kaladorn]

Have to say I disagree somewhat.

Two points to keep in mind: Most of us will come across these systems (or at least this is my experience) without owning them. You go out to try them out. Generally in that stage, you don't tamper with the default settings. This is where I got the strains playing baseball (didn't actually realize it until afterwards). And, in the default settings, I hate to say it, but the harder you swing (faster) and the harder you pitch (faster), the faster the ball throws and your bat swings. Of all the people who played this, I may have been one of the few who got sore shoulders from it, but I was also the one that struck people out and hit home runs... so the more vigorous excercising DID seem to have in-game effects.

Now, admittedly, if I'd known how to turn up or down or sideways the sensitivity, I might have been able to generate the same in-game result without the real-world movement being so pronounced. Of course, part of what made it easier to hit and pitch well in the game is being able to leverage real world kinesthetic memory from playing actual softball.

So, it isn't quite as simple as just saying 'you don't need to strain yourself', because in both boxing and baseball, your speed does seem to have an impact. It isn't quite as simple as saying someone is an idiot for getting a bit sore like that - I mean, I used to get a bit of tendonitis in the arm or wrist cramping if I played FPSes too long or intently. That sort of stuff happens when you get sucked into, immersed in, and participate in any sort of game. The Wii, for its flaws, is a great social tool - EVERYONE wants to try it out. It is also a bit of fun to try to play the various games (serious or not). But since it is easy to get immersed and get carried away, I can see how people hurt themselves. Same thing with Guitar Hero.

Would I ever argue it was the fault of the Wii? Not really. I made the choice to play it and get myself 'into' the game. Yet at the same time, its easy enough to do damage while thinking you're playing along innocuously (and faulty retention straps might just actually BE nintendo's fault).

I think it is simply a case where these sorts of controllers, like Johnny Mnemonic's surfing gloves, have been something we've all wanted to see for a long time and finally the tech seems to be getting there. But despite wanting to see them, we don't yet fully appreciate all the implications nor are we aware of the minor perils. We've discovered the perils of keyboards (and spawned better ones that are ergonomic) and mice (ditto, to some extent). This is just an adaption process and the injuries and whatnot go with that. Eventually, we'll probably wonder how we navigated the Interweb without motion sensitive controllers or played FPSes without TrackIR or the like.

But for now, they're still a hazard to the unwary. If that makes idiots of everyone who gets a minor or major bit of injury out of them, I guess that's just the way it is. I've been called worse over the years...

 

[kaladorn]

Have to say I disagree somewhat.

Two points to keep in mind: Most of us will come across these systems (or at least this is my experience) without owning them. You go out to try them out. Generally in that stage, you don't tamper with the default settings. This is where I got the strains playing baseball (didn't actually realize it until afterwards). And, in the default settings, I hate to say it, but the harder you swing (faster) and the harder you pitch (faster), the faster the ball throws and your bat swings. Of all the people who played this, I may have been one of the few who got sore shoulders from it, but I was also the one that struck people out and hit home runs... so the more vigorous excercising DID seem to have in-game effects.

Now, admittedly, if I'd known how to turn up or down or sideways the sensitivity, I might have been able to generate the same in-game result without the real-world movement being so pronounced. Of course, part of what made it easier to hit and pitch well in the game is being able to leverage real world kinesthetic memory from playing actual softball.

So, it isn't quite as simple as just saying 'you don't need to strain yourself', because in both boxing and baseball, your speed does seem to have an impact. It isn't quite as simple as saying someone is an idiot for getting a bit sore like that - I mean, I used to get a bit of tendonitis in the arm or wrist cramping if I played FPSes too long or intently. That sort of stuff happens when you get sucked into, immersed in, and participate in any sort of game. The Wii, for its flaws, is a great social tool - EVERYONE wants to try it out. It is also a bit of fun to try to play the various games (serious or not). But since it is easy to get immersed and get carried away, I can see how people hurt themselves. Same thing with Guitar Hero.

Would I ever argue it was the fault of the Wii? Not really. I made the choice to play it and get myself 'into' the game. Yet at the same time, its easy enough to do damage while thinking you're playing along innocuously (and faulty retention straps might just actually BE nintendo's fault).

I think it is simply a case where these sorts of controllers, like Johnny Mnemonic's surfing gloves, have been something we've all wanted to see for a long time and finally the tech seems to be getting there. But despite wanting to see them, we don't yet fully appreciate all the implications nor are we aware of the minor perils. We've discovered the perils of keyboards (and spawned better ones that are ergonomic) and mice (ditto, to some extent). This is just an adaption process and the injuries and whatnot go with that. Eventually, we'll probably wonder how we navigated the Interweb without motion sensitive controllers or played FPSes without TrackIR or the like.

But for now, they're still a hazard to the unwary. If that makes idiots of everyone who gets a minor or major bit of injury out of them, I guess that's just the way it is. I've been called worse over the years...

 

[far-trader]

Meh, maybe I came off a bit harsher than I intended. I don't think I'd lump you kaldorn, or most people in the idiot group. I'm fully aware of the tendency to "play hard" even when it's virtual and that's not what I'm talking about, nor is it what seems to be grabbing the headlines.

I'm talking about what I precieve to be a loud minority who seem to be bragging about how badly they've thrown this piece of game tech and how much damage it's caused. It's like a contest now: Who can post the most outrageous Wii "accident"? Next (if not already) will be (obviously staged) videos on YouTube of richochetting Wii wands. Out of how many of this game system and how many players are we seeing the same story from a few?

When I first heard the original story about somebody throwing their Wii wand while playing and it destroying a monitor my first thought was "Wow did Nintendo blow it big time and when's the first lawsuit happening?" Then I was told it happened because the guy wasn't using the supplied wrist strap. Idiot. They're there for a reason. Right? Or not? Maybe not in all cases, maybe just I don't know, excited at surviving the line-up to snag one.

Now it seems Nintendo keeps coming out with replacement straps, as if that is the problem. It will bite them in the end I fear, as an admission of faulty design.

So sure there's bound to be unintended consequences, especially in any new tech, I've read enough great sci-fi cautionary tales to know that, but this one looks like user fault to me and blaming the manufacturer seems wrong.

More to the point, can anyone tell me how a thread on realism in CT came around to Wii accidents

I would offer bonus points for bringing it back to topic with a ObTrav but I think kaladorn already did it.

I apologize to any I've offended in my blanket categorization of Wii throwers.

 

[far-trader]

Meh, maybe I came off a bit harsher than I intended. I don't think I'd lump you kaldorn, or most people in the idiot group. I'm fully aware of the tendency to "play hard" even when it's virtual and that's not what I'm talking about, nor is it what seems to be grabbing the headlines.

I'm talking about what I precieve to be a loud minority who seem to be bragging about how badly they've thrown this piece of game tech and how much damage it's caused. It's like a contest now: Who can post the most outrageous Wii "accident"? Next (if not already) will be (obviously staged) videos on YouTube of richochetting Wii wands. Out of how many of this game system and how many players are we seeing the same story from a few?

When I first heard the original story about somebody throwing their Wii wand while playing and it destroying a monitor my first thought was "Wow did Nintendo blow it big time and when's the first lawsuit happening?" Then I was told it happened because the guy wasn't using the supplied wrist strap. Idiot. They're there for a reason. Right? Or not? Maybe not in all cases, maybe just I don't know, excited at surviving the line-up to snag one.

Now it seems Nintendo keeps coming out with replacement straps, as if that is the problem. It will bite them in the end I fear, as an admission of faulty design.

So sure there's bound to be unintended consequences, especially in any new tech, I've read enough great sci-fi cautionary tales to know that, but this one looks like user fault to me and blaming the manufacturer seems wrong.

More to the point, can anyone tell me how a thread on realism in CT came around to Wii accidents

I would offer bonus points for bringing it back to topic with a ObTrav but I think kaladorn already did it.

I apologize to any I've offended in my blanket categorization of Wii throwers.