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What OS for Traveller software?

Hemdian

Hemdian

SOC-14 1K
Baron
Traveller forums, including CotI, seem to be homes for quite vocal Mac and Linux supporters. (Nothing wrong with that.) But what percentage of the Traveller community do they actually represent? A consideration for future Traveller software developers.

This year my site (StuffOnline) has had 10431 pageviews (not just 'hits') so far which break down as 87% Windows, 8% Mac, 3% Linux, the rest are 'other'. But to be fair my site does have a Windows bias in the software section so these figures may not be representative. Anybody else got figures they can share?
 
I suspect your numbers are representative, it's just the reality of the world (and close to market shares I think).

Personally (long time Mac fan, grudging PC user)* I prefer non-OS solutions.

* dabbler with Linux and others, always too much work for too little support
 
MS makes it really easy (too easy sometimes, as witness a lot of existing software out there) to program - their tools are now really good*, and the .Net stuff translates between Win Forms and the web pretty easily.**

Apple's Objective C, I've heard, is not well-liked. But that may be just rumors based on the more MS-centric sites I tend to visit.

Long-term, the OS will become irrelevant. We're already seeing cloud computing, cloud databases, and there are many, many Traveller websites that have generators for all sorts of things. If you look at where MS and Apple are both going, it is all web-based, meaning the browser is the future of OS for the most part. Add in WiMax (wifi on steroids) and net access will also be fairly ubiquitous. Apple is betting on iPhone/Safari as a programming platform, MS is moving towards their 'live' services which are all net-based systems. Not to mention the 800 pound gorilla of Google.

Similar arguments for the blue-ray vs HD-DVD: in the next few years that will be irrelevelent (well, it already is since HD-DVD is no more) since most people will be using legal digital downloads of one form or another rather than the discs.

But for the immediate future - it pretty much is a MS world for most people.

*their first iterations were, as usual w/MS, not particularly good. They usually get pretty good by the 3rd version, and as long as there is at least some competition, they do continue to improve things.

**I personally HATE web programming: web sites are sessionless, so it is harder to do a lot of things you take for granted with 'normal' systems programming (regardless of platform, and I've programmed for PDPs, Datapoint, Linux, Unix and MS stuff for a long time now), and you are also talking client/server, where processing is on the server, and the browser/client does everything. HTML is not designed for interactivity, which is why javascript and other scripting languages are used to fudge things to make what is essentially a passive viewer into something more interactive. But, this is just me after writing a 100+ web page complicated DB system with a web front-end. Give me my punch cards back! And get off my lawn!
 
Software

hmmn well since currently its not much more work to make a cross platform software solution I dont think its much of an issue and you failed to break down the windows ..ie 95/98 15%, Xp 60%, vista 10%, 2000 10%, other versions of windows 5% (ie 3.1, Me, NT).. they are not fully compatible with each other at all.

So a Java app is prolly the best bet...
 
OS preference

Is it that important today? We're now in a world where Mac runs OS X (essentially UNIX) and for a long time UNIX/Linux has had windows emulation.

Nice site Hemdian.
 
Some interesting posts ...

To far-trader:
A gross over generalisation but I've noticed that businessy-types like Windows, arty-types like Macs, and uber-geeks like Linux. And given the higher than normal ratios of geeks and uber-geeks and arty people into Taveller I had expected the ratios of OS to differ from the general population. But maybe I was wrong.

To coliver988:
The future may very well belong to the web but not today. Today there are still (for some of us atleast) connection reliability issues to be overcome, legal/privacy issues regarding storing your data online as opposed to on your own hard disk, and I've seen some really poorly implemented web apps in the past few years (a client of mine once remarked on a third party web app "I have a ZX81 at home that runs faster than this!").

To morfydd:
To get more detailed stats for my site would require upgrading from free to not-free. That's not to say it wont happen, but I haven't done it yet. Meanwhile, if someone already has tools and experience in Windows development how much of the potential market is he shutting out by not investing in something like Java? Is the combined Mac and Linux Traveller crowd large enough to warrant the investment to learn Java?

To savage:
Thanks. :)
 
Given that Java is
1) cross platform
2) supported on the 3rd tier OS's (Not just M$ Win, MacOS X, and Linux, but also CE, Symbian, and several others)
3) object code compilable
it's a pretty good choice.

As for Obj-C: it's not just Mac OS. It is suviving only on Mac OS X. It's also not the only way to program for macs.... C++ works just fine with the gcc and correct libs.
 
os's

With Java being 100% platform independent its a solid investment to learn and the base code files are free ..just a time investment for the learning curve as opposed to monetary one <althou I know that time can be worth a lot more than money>..and yes you have more geeks and artsys type in traveller than in the general population. #2 with java being platform independent you dont have to rewrite the code year after year as the platform market changes or as windows makes an upgrade that makes the previous stuff done in v basic or .net obsolete ...
 
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morfydd said:
With Java being 100% platform independent its a solid investment to learn and the base code files are free ..just a time investment for the learning curve as opposed to monetary one <althou I know that time can be worth a lot more than money>..and yes you have more geeks and artsys type in traveller than in the general population. #2 with java being platform independent you dont have to rewrite the code year after year as the platform market changes or as windows makes an upgrade that makes the previous stuff done in v basic or .net obsolete ...
Click to expand...

While 100% on all platforms, the libraries are not always there or the same across all platforms, and in my very limited experience it is write once, debug everywhere - especially the UI. But that was my very limited experience. Just like MS - sometimes the libraries get updated on some platforms and not others. Software, since the advent of the PC, is very fluidic. And it can't keep up with the hardware at all.

Bottom line it depends on your expected market & what you already have: there are probably a lot more Mac/Linux people than the general public in this forum since RPGs, particularly Traveller, seem to attract the more 'artistic' & 'geeky' types as noted, so this market may be more skewed towards that end. As previously noted, the largest market share is Windows, and while that share is going downhill, for the next 5-10 years, in businesses at least for personal production software, will remain the dominent market force and the most popular consumer-level OS. But if you currently just have a PC, then you may have a problem testing it on a Mac, and supporting software on multiple OS is a nightmare (heck, maintaining multiple versions of software for the same platform is equally horrible!)

But then - learn java & you could write it for MS' OS as well as the Apple crowd, and depending on the UI interface, for phones/PDAs running java. I'm just not convinced that the language is write once/deploy everywhere.

As an aside: even web-based things don't work the same across browsers: the major browsers each use different rendering engines and 'interpret' the HTML standards different, sometimes greviously so. The in-house apps I've done just look different on FF vs IE6 vs IE7 vs Slimbrowser (which is supposed to be IE6 based if I recall). I don't program for a specific browser since that market is also fractured, I just try to program to standards.

As a 2nd aside: the .net stuff is backwards compatible as well since any installer will also verify you've got the correct version running. There is also a partial Linux port of it. And heck - virtual PCs are going to be the way to go anyway: you can run Mac software on a PC or PC software on a Mac with a virtual PC. Bad news is that you still have to buy both OS...so for most that is not a do-able thing.

As a 3rd aside - no, just kidding. That was enough, and hopefully I've not derailed this conversation overly much.
 
Spica Publishing:

354 unique users
1630 pageviews

8.65% Mac OSX
0% Linux
91.35 Windows

My other place:

221 unique users
3686 pageviews

2.66% Mac OSX
2.77% Linux
94.57% Windows
 
As a Mac developer I have a couple of points:
1. While Mac owners can run Windows either via Booting into it or via Virtualization, we don't want to. Some of us won't, full stop!
2. Most Mac owners don't use Terminal or understand Unix, command line apps are foreign to them.
3. Mac users ARE happy to use Mac Apps written in any language IF THEY LOOK AND BEHAVE like Mac Apps. Things like Menu placement, Icons size and style, Toolbars and standard file dialogues are key areas. If the program looks and acts like Windows software, the fact that it's running in OS X doesn't make it a Mac Apps.

Finally, % rates are not the way I decide what platform to write for. Back in the 1980 - 90 there was a lot of Traveller software written on the Apple ][, there's some still around. But there are more Macs sold every quarter than the total Apple ][s ever sold. There are currently an estimated 20+ million OS X users, who are mainly using their computers for "Fun" activities. And this number is surging.

So the questions I ask, why am I writing this program? If it's to make lot's of money then I don't think Traveller is the market niche:-) If it's for old Traveller players who mostly have PCs, would they use my software? They probably have a gaming style and programmes that serve them well. There are all sorts of Dos/Windows programmes out there and most are free.

But I have the only 2, OS X Applications in Travellerville, I have a young and growing market and I'm probably introducing new blood to this great old game:-) Oh and as most of you may know I've just started playing the game myself so I'm writing Apps that I want to use...:D
 
Last full month:

stats.jpg


If you want to explore my stats, http://mario.silent-tower.org/stats.
 
Very interesting stats. The two Win 3.x users is a shocker. As is the poor showing of Vista. I mean I know people speak ill of it, but wow, I didn't think it was that bad.
 
Just as a comment: I've only seen one "write once deploy everywhere" solution... Inform.

Doesn't do graphics easily, and not *all* inform VM's handle graphics anyway. But it does have about 60 platforms supported with text...

(Inform is optimized for interactive fiction, and is the old Infocom language... byte code compiled. VM's for all kinds of stuff... even a jvm version of the inform vm...)
 
Actually, I started this thread more for general curiosity rather than specific advice on what I should write Traveller software in. But it's in danger of becoming a "what's my favorite language" thread. (Well there's nothing finer than COBOL in a VMS environment. ;) )

Gruffty, thanks for your stats.

mmbutter, your stat break down is interesting but is it a Traveller site? You might be showing the general population rather than the Traveller community. Side note: I have 2 identical laptops, both a few years old, one has XP the other Vista. I actually PREFER Vista! :oo:

Okay, Kaveman, a pretty site but the only things on it are 2 pieces of Mac software ... that will tend to slew the results somewhat I suspect.
 
as an aside, and not wanting to derail the conversation, but programming environments/languages/OS are generally another of those 'holy wars'. Not so much for Traveller per se, but in general. There have been far too many threads devoted to, as per another thread, what is essentially a person's favorite ice cream.

Traveller software is very much a niche, and due to the massive homebrew rules tweaking, probably no software will do what even a majority of the people want it to do.

So...program it for yourself on the platform of your choice, and the language of your choice.

Edit: a bit late, but I'm agreeing w/Hemdian on it. (was at work, got derailed for 40 minutes before posting)
 
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mmbutter said:
Python is more portable than Java. And it handles graphics anywhere they're available
Click to expand...

I do like python... but it's a harder switch from C/C++/C# than Java is. Especially with significant whitespace.

Also, python on palm didn't do graphics, and python isn't on most of the third tier platofrms.

It is wonderful, however, for slice notation. Take apart UWPs really easily...
 
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Quick comment, Vista is rock solid and hellamore secure than XP. I preffer it, I have both on diff machines and dual boot on this one. I only got it 'cause it was free, and now its my OS of choice.

I also have a MAC running 10.4, not Lynux boxes.
 
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