General What would general purpose freighters look like?

[Grav_Moped]

Higher jump number PC ships - and NPC free traders - make their money from speculative trade and 'odd jobs'.

Speculative trade and odd jobs don't look reliable on a 40-year ship mortgage application.

So are these ships all hard-used mega-corp castoffs? I mean, they could be...


This is part of the "simulates Sci-Fi" versus "simulates hypothetical future economics" split.

Economics says there probably won't be much demand for Far Traders or Far Fat Traders. Sci-Fi (including Traveller canon) says there a lot of them (or at least that the few that exist are almost always run by PCs or protagonists).

 

[Grav_Moped]

IF there is any stateroom occupied by someone who purchased a "mid passage" ticket!

If all of the few staterooms but one have been booked with HIGH passage tickets, then apparently either the couple "take out" one of the others or they don't take the trip, apparently in your world.

If I'm a starship captain, that's the sort of problem I'll take any day of the week and twice on Senday.

Since they're that insistent, I'd start the bidding on single staterooms at Cr12,000, losers have to double-up or wait for the next ship.

 

[mike wightman]

Speculative trade and odd jobs don't look reliable on a 40-year ship mortgage application.

You don't have a mortgage on your ship upgrade, you pay for it with the money you made as a jump1 free trader.

So are these ships all hard-used mega-corp castoffs? I mean, they could be...

read The Traveller Adventure - Oberlindes had a starting fleet of ex-navy transports

This is part of the "simulates Sci-Fi" versus "simulates hypothetical future economics" split.

There is no split in the rules - the rules are not a universe sim...

Economics says there probably won't be much demand for Far Traders or Far Fat Traders. Sci-Fi (including Traveller canon) says there a lot of them (or at least that the few that exist are almost always run by PCs or protagonists).

I agree but we don't know the true economic model for the setting, just that high jump number ships exist that follow the x-boat trade lanes, megacorporations make a profit, and probably fix the price

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There is no split in the rules - the rules are not a universe sim...

While I agree almost completely with what you say about Traveller economics, but of course there is a split in the systems: Major trade routes operate under entirely different rules than Free Traders.

Obviously the megacorps charges per parcek freight rates even if the rules say a Far Trader can't.



The OTU is highly urbanised; nearly all of the Imperium's population lives in HiPop systems, and nearly all of the trade flows between those worlds.

LowPop worlds are about as economically important to the Imperium as the Aleutian Islands are to the US; not at all. Hence they receive as much attention from Megacorp freighters as the Aleutians receive from Delta or Maersk; at a guess, none at all.

That is where Free Traders fit in...

 

[Vile]

I've kind of lost track during this thread - so what would general purpose freighters look like?

Less facetiously, as we're going by the rules as written, I guess that would mean privately-owned or operated "free freighter" type ships?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I've kind of lost track during this thread - so what would general purpose freighters look like?

Strictly by LBB2 it would be a 200-400 Dton J-1 trader, basically the Free Trader or Fat Trader minus the unnecessary system such as vehicles. We can't regularly fill larger ships, and J-2 or more isn't remotely profitable.

 

[mike wightman]

And you can look in The Traveller adventure to see what the common megacorporation general purpose freighters are like.

 

[boomslang]

Strictly by LBB2 it would be a 200-400 Dton J-1 trader, basically the Free Trader or Fat Trader minus the unnecessary system such as vehicles.

This.

I have always assumed that Class C or better starports have grav/ground vehicles for lease and small craft for charter -- both at hourly rates -- for those rare occasions when a non-trader ship's master or purser needs to schlep out beyond startown and actually visit in-person a prospective factor, or see a lawyer in confidence, or inspect a shipment before it actually ships, or whatever/whomever.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I have always assumed that Class C or better starports have grav/ground vehicles for lease and small craft for charter -- both at hourly rates -- ...

Agreed.

I guess they are included in the standard ships to make them less profitable and a little bit more appealing to adventurers.

 

[boomslang]

I guess they are included in the standard ships to make them less profitable and a little bit more appealing to adventurers.

And they are in there because they end up being useful for free trading when it is necessary to go scrounging about hither and yon to try and find some suitable speculative cargo on some Starport D or worse world.

Freight hauling is all about dealing with factors and brokers, wheeling and dealing out of their starport/startown offices, who have nearby warehouses (sort of) full of goods ready to ship.

So basically a freighter is: hull, drives, fuel, bridge, computer, crew staterooms, and any desired hardpoints with associated fire control, with everything left over as hold (or as I spec it, "payload").

 

[Condottiere]

Getting access to a starship was the game mechanic to allow characters to travel and jump from system to system, as long as they could maintain control of it.

You can allow yourself to be locked in the game sanctioned economic models, or you become a disruptor, and present potential customers an alternative.

I recall a number of novels mentioning that gambling cruises, or maybe duty free ones, taking place outside of planetary jurisdictions, can be profitable.

What happens at the Black Hole Resort and Casino, stays at the Black Hole Resort and Casino.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Agreed.

I guess they are included in the standard ships to make them less profitable and a little bit more appealing to adventurers.

It's not just "more appealing to adventurers," it's also (out-of-universe) to facilitate adventures. Having a lifeboat enables scenarios where a lifeboat is necessary, or hijackers can steal it. It's also a conceptual upgrade -- it signals that the ship is big enough that it can have, or is expected to have, a ship's boat. Having an Air/Raft saves the trouble (and playing-session time) of renting one.

The "less profitable" aspect was likely an afterthought, but not objectionable.

In LBB2 itself, there's a natural progression: Type A Free Trader, Type R Subsidized Merchant, then upgrade the Type R to Type R2 (Size D drives and fuel tanks in the cargo hold). If you want Jump-3, get a Type M Subsidized Liner. Properly paced, that'll take a while to accomplish in-universe and in gaming-session time as well.

And they are in there because they end up being useful for free trading when it is necessary to go scrounging about hither and yon to try and find some suitable speculative cargo on some Starport D or worse world.

Freight hauling is all about dealing with factors and brokers, wheeling and dealing out of their starport/startown offices, who have nearby warehouses (sort of) full of goods ready to ship.

So basically a freighter is: hull, drives, fuel, bridge, computer, crew staterooms, and any desired hardpoints with associated fire control, with everything left over as hold (or as I spec it, "payload").

I spec "payload" as both cargo hold and passenger accommodations, but yeah.

 

[Grav_Moped]

You don't have a mortgage on your ship upgrade, you pay for it with the money you made as a jump1 free trader.

In cash, or just the down payment? One would assume it's cash, but the rules strongly indicate only a down payment (and the architect fee, as applicable) is needed. There is no requirement for a business plan...

read The Traveller Adventure - Oberlindes had a starting fleet of ex-navy transports

Yeah. They got an armed Lightning-class too, eventually.

There is no split in the rules - the rules are not a universe sim...

That is the split.

I agree but we don't know the true economic model for the setting, just that high jump number ships exist that follow the x-boat trade lanes, megacorporations make a profit, and probably fix the price

But the ship design rules as they exist don't support that. It's a classic, "We lose money on every sale, but we'll make it up in volume!" problem. It's worth noting that for these larger ships (800Td-2KTd), the baseline J-1 costs under Cr700/ton payload, though (Cr624-684/ton/J1).

Up to Jump-3, cost per parsec as a series of lesser Jumps is either equal to or close to the cost of a single Jump of that distance (except at the TL of introduction of practical Jump-n, such as J-3 at TL-9).

Cost of Jump-n as multiple of of lowest-cost method to n parsecs:
Dist TL-9    TL-10  TL-11   TL-12    TL-13   TL-14   TL-15
1    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00
2    1.01    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00
3    3.04    1.09    1.35    1.22    1.14    1.14    1.00
4     x      3.07    3.21    2.16    2.16    1.83    1.08
5     x       x     31.83   31.83    5.14    5.14    3.03
6     x       x       x       x       x       x      5.37


"x" indicates that Jump-n is not available at that Tech Level

Notes: 
- Increased J-3&4 multiplier at TL-11 is because J-1 becomes cheaper
- J5 at TLs 11-12 only has 7Td payload

This is cost-per-parsec relative to the most-efficient ship available (J-1 for odd distances and J-2 for even distances, until TL-15).

Thus, even megacorps won't usually use more than J-2, regardless of distance. J-3 is close enough to be justifiable at higher TLs, for 3 or 6 parsecs only (4-5 parsec runs will be via multiple J2s+J1). J-4 doesn't become practical until TL-15 with Z drives.

 

[Grav_Moped]

To clarify:
J-1 (odd no. of parsecs) or J-2 (even number of parsecs) is the cheapest means to get to any arbitrary distance until TL-15.

J-2 ships on the J-1 leg of odd-numbered distance trips are less efficient than J-1 ships, and this makes them less efficient overall than using a series of J1s on such trips.
J-2 ships on even-numbered trips (where they are able to use only J-2) are more efficient -- the cost/parsec of J2 is less than 2J1, but not enough to make 1J2+J1 less expensive than 3J1.

 

[mike wightman]

You are not taking into account the profit made by the megacorporations selling their goods - that is how they afford their ships.

Fill a hold with computers, take it between two lucrative trade codes - massive profit. You are doing that every two weeks. You pay for your ship out of the profits.

Megacorportaions have a very simple trade model - they make lots of stuff and sell it for a profit which covers all costs (including shipping to market). They do not haul freight, they take their own goods to market and transport other people's goods at 1000Cr per ton per jump.

 

[Vile]

Megacorporations are most probably able to write their own rules if the universe follows normal capitalist principles. Governments give them tax breaks, port priority and/or discounts, peppercorn rents for their warehousing, all to ensure that those Megacorps call at their world. Those imperial family shareholders give them all manner of insider knowledge of new markets about to be opened up. That sort of thing.

The mercantile world is a dirty, underhand, corrupt, closed system, which free traders could never break into.

 

[Spartan159]

So, what size fleet do you need before you cross the boundary between Free Trader and Mercantile Enterprise?

I really wish someone would come up with higher end rules regarding trade, not everyone is a poor murder-hobo. I would give it a shot, if I had a clue of how to go about it.

 

[Selandia]

In RPG terms, once the player is not adventuring aboard its starship anymore but become a white collar adventurers you become a mercantile concern managing-owner.

You may still be operating personnaly a subsidized merchant while having a couple of deals with feeder lines, thus operating your business from your ship, or even own multiple subsidized ships on a line (insuring weekly departure from both end).

But the moment that your adventuring is dealing with managing ship's manning, dealing with port authority bureaucrats for long term leasing of warehouse, Stevedores Union and bankers, when mutiny and hyjacking happen beyond your sight and are solved by insurance claims rather than your brawn, you are a wanabe Merchant Prince and own a minor mercantile concern.

Of course a NPC manager may be used to handle the "dirt side" of the business while you perform business developpement through speculative trading aboard a free trader, like a noble whose estate is manager while he/she engae in politic. This way, you are essentially owner of a mercantile concern even if you are not a white collar adventurer.

As to major or minor, if you control the 4 ships that are all the Liner links of a out of the way planet, you are big shit there. Even more so if you control the pirate that makes sure that no Free trader compete with you. There might be blood on the white collar of a wanabe Merchant Prince.

Anyway , the whole point is to have fun

Selandia

 

[Condottiere]

Probably the point where you can afford to make campaign contributions and gifts to politically influential entities.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I would think that larger freighters, say starting around 10,000 tons, wouldn't bother carrying passengers just cargo. They'd be as efficient as possible with the smallest crew that can safely operate the ship and basically be all cargo hold with engines....
In fact, such liners could produce an economy of scale and reduce the cost of passage substantially just as large airliners have done that for the airline industry.

Like the current Earth situation with ocean going freighters. Even larger ships than 10k tons would be the case between certain worlds where pop, industry and TL is sufficient to have large comparative and/or absolute advantage econ wise.

One major difference is that air travel is vastly faster than ocean travel, to the point of almost completely eliminating the latter. This isn't the case in Traveller.