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General What would general purpose freighters look like?

It comes down to either economies of scale for megacorporation, or self sufficiency for entrepreneurs.

Is there space for unicorns? Likely you either get bought out, or crushed.
 
It comes down to either economies of scale for megacorporation, or self sufficiency for entrepreneurs.

Is there space for unicorns? Likely you either get bought out, or crushed.

The only space is outside major lines and on fringe of Empire/Republic or what have you.. LBB2 rules as far as volume available.
 
Unicorns are highly successful startups with the potential to disrupt the established economic model, with the recognized market valuation.

So the established players either buy them up, or crush them, to restore status quo ante bellum.
 
Unicorns are highly successful startups with the potential to disrupt the established economic model, with the recognized market valuation.

So the established players either buy them up, or crush them, to restore status quo ante bellum.

Never heard that term. My wife works with VCs funding High Tech start ups. Mainly in IT Sec area. Must be a term in a different industry
 
Unicorns are highly successful startups with the potential to disrupt the established economic model, with the recognized market valuation.

So the established players either buy them up, or crush them, to restore status quo ante bellum.
Never heard that term. My wife works with VCs funding High Tech start ups. Mainly in IT Sec area. Must be a term in a different industry
I've come across it quite a few times, it's probably more a term used in finance/ economics in general than individual industries. And it probably became common relatively recently because these kinds of startups have only started becoming a "thing" relatively recently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn_(finance)
 
I've come across it quite a few times, it's probably more a term used in finance/ economics in general than individual industries. And it probably became common relatively recently because these kinds of startups have only started becoming a "thing" relatively recently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn_(finance)

Ah, no wonder. 99.99999% of start ups are not worth NEAR $1 billion. The term start up is generally reserved for companies no more than 2 years old
 
The only space is outside major lines and on fringe of Empire/Republic or what have you.. LBB2 rules as far as volume available.

LBB7 apparently doesn't have volume limits (which seems odd to me, but it's a lot easier than doing the macro-econ analysis needed to work out the limits). But where volume is unlimited, the maximally-efficient big ships would come in and clear the market leaving only LBB2 volumes anyhow.

The unstated part of the LBB2 rules is that it describes the market supply of cargo willing to pay Cr1000/ton/jump. It doesn't attempt to describe the market supply of cargo willing to pay Cr1000/ton/parsec, even though that's what a per-Jump rate would end up providing instead.

Subsidized higher-jump ships (the J2/2G Far Fat Trader implied by the 400Td standard hull and the J3 Type M Subsidized Liner) will destroy independent higher-jump cargo-only operators, where they are in operation. Or at least remove a couple of hundred tons of cargo from the market per port call by offering to haul at Cr500/ton/parsec (Jump-2) or Cr333/ton/parsec (Jump-3).

If an R2 Big Far Trader comes through every two weeks, there is no market for LBB2 cargo beyond 1 parsec under normal operations tempo (jump then wait 7 days) because it's cheaper and no slower to wait for the cheap J2. At a 3-week interval there's only 1/3 the normal cargo available, assuming that it's not willing to wait an additional week.

A Type M on the same route only needs to call every 5 weeks to have a similar effect on cargo to 3 parsecs.

Running through-passage (gas-and-go or having double fuel) affects this slightly.
 
So, subsidized ships serve two purposes. The first is the official purpose, which is to create demand for interstellar trade when there is no LBB2-rules cargo that can be profitably carried at Cr1000/parsec to the ship's jump range. The second is the unofficial purpose, which is to undercut and price out any ships over Jump-1 that might want to haul cargo in the area. This gives the subsidizing entity control of nearly all high-jump shipping for LBB2-rules cargo in the area. (Spec goods are a different matter.)

Useful if you're securing your own pocket empire or little fiefdom. Probably not much use to a megacorp since it doesn't get you much profit even after you push everyone else out.
 
The relevant question to ask is not RAW trade and resultant ship design, although it is a useful exercise in rules consequences- the relevant question is what do you want it to be, then true up your rules to make it that way.
 
The relevant question to ask is not RAW trade and resultant ship design, although it is a useful exercise in rules consequences- the relevant question is what do you want it to be, then true up your rules to make it that way.

No, for me the relevant question is what logically flows out of the rules. If I don't like the answer I change the rules to create a different logical outcome. If the rule is; Gravity exists, I don't what the game universe filled with things acting as if gravity doesn't exist.
 
The relevant question to ask is not RAW trade and resultant ship design, although it is a useful exercise in rules consequences- the relevant question is what do you want it to be, then true up your rules to make it that way.

Not a bad approach.

I'd come at it from a slightly different angle. Make it match the implications of LBB2 trade in those rules' scope, then expand to include desired characteristics.

In other words, everything that's canon should work as written. Type As can scrape by on cargo, Type Rs can't without a subsidy (but could if they weren't designed to fail). Type A2s should almost be able to if they only ever do J-2*, Type R2 Big Far Traders can get by if they do J-2 most of the time.

Type Ms are far enough outside usual PC scope that they can be left unprofitable without breaking suspension of disbelief, but a 600Td Jump-3 stripped-down freighter ought to be able to cover its costs on selected routes.

Anything bigger starts to be a license to print money if there's enough cargo to go around, but the megacorps own most of the money machines.



*loans get written under the premise that the ships will stick to profitable routes to guarantee return on investment. Oddly, not all that many actually do. The rest chase speculative cargo and often do quite well, but the bank would never make those loans if they expected them to be high-risk.
 
No, for me the relevant question is what logically flows out of the rules. If I don't like the answer I change the rules to create a different logical outcome. If the rule is; Gravity exists, I don't what the game universe filled with things acting as if gravity doesn't exist.


I'm not sure what you are arguing with me about, you just restated what I said with the bold part. The main thing is consistency for the play effect you want.
 
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
The relevant question to ask is not RAW trade and resultant ship design, although it is a useful exercise in rules consequences- the relevant question is what do you want it to be, then true up your rules to make it that way.
Not a bad approach.

I'd come at it from a slightly different angle. Make it match the implications of LBB2 trade in those rules' scope, then expand to include desired characteristics.

In other words, everything that's canon should work as written. Type As can scrape by on cargo, Type Rs can't without a subsidy (but could if they weren't designed to fail). Type A2s should almost be able to if they only ever do J-2*, Type R2 Big Far Traders can get by if they do J-2 most of the time.

Type Ms are far enough outside usual PC scope that they can be left unprofitable without breaking suspension of disbelief, but a 600Td Jump-3 stripped-down freighter ought to be able to cover its costs on selected routes.

Anything bigger starts to be a license to print money if there's enough cargo to go around, but the megacorps own most of the money machines.



*loans get written under the premise that the ships will stick to profitable routes to guarantee return on investment. Oddly, not all that many actually do. The rest chase speculative cargo and often do quite well, but the bank would never make those loans if they expected them to be high-risk.
Some basic assumptions, based on cost per jump per payload ton for LBB2 ships:
- LBB2 cargo rules (Cr1000/Jump, available cargo) are valid enough. They support Jump-1 shipping in hulls up to 600Td (with passengers filling out the payload space not used by cargo).
- These rules make shipping generic cargo at higher than Jump-1 unprofitable. Therefore, the vast majority of such shipping is conducted at Jump-1.
- Roughly, the cost of transporting a ton of payload to X parsecs in a single Jump is proportional to the distance.
Code:
Cost of Jump-n instead of lowest-cost method to n parsecs:

Dist TL-9    TL-10  TL-11   TL-12    TL-13   TL-14   TL-15
1    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00
2    1.01    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00    1.00
3    3.04    1.09    1.35    1.22    1.14    1.14    1.00
4     x      3.07    3.21    2.16    2.16    1.83    1.08
5     x       x     31.83   31.83    5.14    5.14    3.03
6     x       x       x       x       x       x      5.37

x indicates that Jump-n is not available at that Tech Level
Note that the TL9 J3 ship is 200Td, the TL10 J-4 ship is 400Td, and the TL-11 J-5 ship is also 400Td (but has only 7 tons(!) payload). This strongly suggests that these early ships (especially the TL11 J5 one) are not going to be independently economically viable under any plausible generic cargo rules.

Also, these numbers are for for the largest possible ship for that Jump Number at that Tech Level. I'll re-attack this with ships benchmarked at about 250Td payload (cargo plus passengers) which should support an average world's (no +/-DMs) cargo volume.

Implications:
- The default cost of shipping becomes Cr1000/parsec, comprised of multiple Jump-1 legs to reach destinations beyond 1 parsec.
- The cargo volumes generated by LBB2 reflect the under-pricing of longer-jump shipping. That is, with per-jump pricing, Jump-2 costs Cr500/ton/parsec, Jump-3 costs Cr333/ton/parsec, and so on. They do not reflect the volumes available when the cost of shipping is per-parsec.
- Additionally, the cargo rates do not reflect the value of time saved in transit by higher-jump ships.

Secondary Implications:
- Cargo is available for ships to distances beyond their Jump rating, in reduced quantities reflecting the increased shipping costs.
- Cargo is available for higher-Jump ships in the reduced quantities noted above, at rates high enough to cover the operational cost difference. This will affect the benchmark cargo capacity for higher-Jump ships.
- Higher-Jump ships (J-4 and J-5) may be justified (I'm conflicted on this) in charging more than Cr1000/ton/parsec because of the value of the time saved in transit, without further adjustment to quantity of available cargo due to distance. This will require me to do some calculations and make some subjective decisions.
 
I want to say that the available cargo quantity is directly inversely proportional to the distance if the shipping cost is per-parsec. That is, at 2 parsecs (Cr2000) there's half the available cargo, at 3 (Cr3000) there's one-third, at 4 it's one-fourth, etc. The principle here is that all LBB2 cargo is profitable for the shipper (but maybe not the hauler) at Cr1000/ton cost to ship, but a lot less of it will be profitable if that cost is Cr2000, Cr3000, or more.

It seems too simple to be correct, though. There ought to be a Tech Level (or TL-differential) modifier, since low TL cargo is likely to be less valuable per ton, and thus less profitable on resale. (Think in terms of the value of a ton of soybeans compared to the value of a ton of computer parts.) I might have to reverse-engineer it out of the LBB7 cargo rules...
 
The principle here is that all LBB2 cargo is profitable for the shipper (but maybe not the hauler) at Cr1000/ton cost to ship, but a lot less of it will be profitable if that cost is Cr2000, Cr3000, or more.

Back in the Dark ages I looked at that using a then current day example. Which were the Sony Walkmans being unloaded at a dock in NY. They were selling in NY for $100 each.

I had figured they were packed ~3 per liter. So ~40,000/Dton. If charged $1,000/Dton freight that is 40 cents charge to ship one. If $2,000 then 80 cents. The profit margin negates a problem even if 6 X 40 cents as long a no closer supplier to destination planet.

Anyway for what that is worth.
 
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