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Who wants to see an updated FFS?

"But those things will all be designed differently depending on the milieu."

No, they'll all be designed the same, but the components will be different. Whatever the universe, starships will all have hulls, drives, shields, weapons, etc, but the stats will be different. FF&S does this now.
 
...and to expand on what Andrew said, FF&S1 included non-Traveller technologies, including Stutterwarp and Jumpgates (I think). Adding in a few exotic pieces of hardware can go a long way.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
But those things will all be designed differently depending on the milieu.
No, they'll all be designed the same, but the components will be different. Whatever the universe, starships will all have hulls, drives, shields, weapons, etc, but the stats will be different. FF&S does this now. </font>[/QUOTE]The paradigm behind FF&S is the correct one. But FF&S does not really have support for the other milieus except in the most cursory manner.

It talks about anti-matter power plants, but it's talking about Traveller anti-matter power plants. Star Trek's anti-matter power plants are completely different. And what about Romulan singularity power plants? Phasers? Photons? Disrupters? Transporters? Holodecks?

Yes, these are just additional components, but FF&S does not cover their correct assembly into a completed vessel in Star Trek terms. For one thing, what sort of rule applies to favoring dispersed hulls? The nacelles that produce warp fields generate massive radiation, and therefore, warp engines are mounted on booms and various projections. What's the "component" design rule for that? "All ships with warp drive X must have a dispersed hull unless the race manning it can withsand heavy radiation, or if the race has sufficient tech to have super-radiation shielding?"

Ships designed in other milieus have more than just additional componetized systems, they have their own design sequence, and it isn't the Traveller sequence.
 
It actually covers alternative technologies in some detail. The rules changes are covered in the notes for each technology.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:

Ships designed in other milieus have more than just additional componetized systems, they have their own design sequence, and it isn't the Traveller sequence.
Chomsky's Universal Grammar, and all that.

While Star Trek falls outside of both the domain and the copyright of Traveller, I'd think that FFS is designed so that individual contributors can write up non-Traveller components. Thus people could mix and match them into their ship designs.

I haven't seen FFS, but I used to own FFS2, and that's the way FFS2 worked. If you wanted to add in something noone else has ever thought of, all you have to do is describe its requirements (volume, mass, area, power, performance, stress, scalability, etc ad infinitum) -- usually in one or more tables -- and you're good to go. The ultimate in plug-n-play.
 
Hmmm. Your question makes me ask: how generic can a book like FFS be? If it uses meters, kilograms, seconds, watts, etc, can't it be useful for all versions of Traveller?
 
Theoretically, yes, but on practice, no. CT in particular gives you simple ratings which compare to each other in some way, but not to any units you could enumerate. Of course, ANY system that uses damage points must in some way have a system like that, but the pure FFS doesn't really need it; with a little thought, you can make up your own combat system, since you are given weapon outputs and sensor characteristics, all in real world numbers.

As to making Star Trek items... well, of course FFS doesn't have lists for another proprietary universe, but as was mentioned, it wouldn't be too hard to come up with them on your own. Maybe if you got hold of that ship designer they have, you might be able to figure it out.

I personally would be disinclined toward something so radically different, partly because of the amount of work that would be involved and partly because I don't believe there's enough consistency to worry about it. I personally prefer stuff that's close to being realistic, or that deviates only in a few small areas.

The so-called warp nacelles and the nearly unlimited antimatter power output allow the Enterprise to have a dense, meter thick hull (or was it 2 meters?) with ridiculously ungainly shapes that even "open frame" or "close frame" cannot really encompass. You'd be forced to design every single geometric piece of the ship, and that's not really all that fun after the thrid or fourth ship. There's no acceleration, weapons are very high powered (that one's a minor gripe about GURPS too), and there's no good workaround for the transporter bomb, followed by warfare dominated by transporters.

When I break the laws of physics, I want it to be for a good reason, beyond "it looks cool for the 60's".
 
Originally posted by TheDS:

As to making Star Trek items... well, of course FFS doesn't have lists for another proprietary universe [. . .]
You are quite correct. I was being a little too specific, but then, I was trying to illustrate a point, too.
 
"Hmmm. Your question makes me ask: how generic can a book like FFS be? If it uses meters, kilograms, seconds, watts, etc, can't it be useful for all versions of Traveller?"

Makes sense to me.
 
Originally posted by TheDS:
Theoretically, yes, but on practice, no. CT in particular gives you simple ratings which compare to each other in some way, but not to any units you could enumerate.
Yah, it's a closed system in itself. However, I could design a Book 2 ship which uses a Megatraveller power plant if I really wanted to. Not that I'd want to, and the systems are quite different, but the fact is that MT's system of Megawatts, Kiloliters, what-have-you can map to the tons and "proto-EPs" of Book 2.

And I know of many people who would have fun trying. Hey, is it two games, or three? Anyhow, Book 2, though incompatible, shares enough with High Guard's EPs etc that stuff could be retrofitted for it from MT, FFS, etc. They just wouldn't fit elegantly.

FFS is more low-level than MT, and the same theory applies. I imagine FFS could just use errating and perhaps the extra stuff in FFS2 can be incorporated, and people might flock to it.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TheDS:

As to making Star Trek items... well, of course FFS doesn't have lists for another proprietary universe [. . .]
You are quite correct. I was being a little too specific, but then, I was trying to illustrate a point, too. </font>[/QUOTE]Of course; my apologies for getting snitty. You did a little TOO well with your illustration.
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Well fwiw David L. Pulver is at the moment unempoloyed (link) and might be an excellent choice to do some development work on a new FF&S. My main beef with Gurps Vehicles is the requirement that it be in non-Metric (which is a Gurps requirement) and some of the complexity. Since Mr. Pulver's also done rules work for BESM though, other less complicated Gurps 3e books, Gurps 4e, and other books he should be able IMO to create overly detailed design systems as well.

Personally I'd like to see an updated FF&S hopefully with at least a spreadsheet and design sheets with decent useful illos, tables in the text with critical tables duplicated at the end, and a full range of alternative tech to the OTU standard either in the book or ready to go as supplements, either print and/or pdf. Oh and the main book also available in pdf would be most welcome. Heck bundle it on a cd with the spreadsheet, forms, software, and a range of sample designs.

While I'm at it, something akin to what T4 had the kernel of. Multiple levels of complexity of design for a wide range of things that mesh with each other derived from FF&S. Oh and an effects-based design system that works with all the above to boot. ;)

As for Traveller system compatibility sure the RL units are equivalent but often the game stats aren't, the assumptions different if nothing else. <shrugs> All for as much usability as possible.

- Casey
 
The risk of real-world units is that, inevitably, some gearhead will attempt to duplicate real world vehicles with the system, and loudly and publicly upbraid the designers when the attempt fails...

That said, I prefer *some* connection to real-world units, as it increases the ability of the players to relate to the finished product.
 
Structurally, a revised FFS should, IMO, emulate FFS1 in many ways. Discrete sections marked along the page edges for each type of subsystem, tables and formulae integral to the text that discusses them (or the HG/MT model, in which the explanatory text is "read once" and the tables have enough explanation attached that they'll do the whole job), and follow-up design sequences for the odd stuff that can't really live in a simple table. FFS1 did this right for the scope it covered.

Alternative (non-OTU) tech is a nice idea, but I would actually prefer as close to universal coverage as possible of all the variants seen in the OTU as a first goal. FFS2 appoached this ideal, using both HEPlaR and Thrusters as common drives with some of the acceptable alternates along for the ride. I would endeavor to go further, including the several models of ship weaponry, and extending the TNE concept of "more space makes for easier maintenance" expanded to cover drives (thus bringing Book 2 into the picture) and weapons. I want to be able to find design and usage models that allow for CT 1-ton turrets and TNE 6-ton Heavy Cans on the same ship, and make everything from CT's "skinny lasers and tiny missiles" to Janus mount Spinals useful in some context.

Take this ideal, and then boil it down twice, creating three systems similar to the T4 ship design systems. The big book is the "nuts and bolts" version. The second is in the HG range, while the third is at the Book 2 level. All three would be completely inter-operable.

In an ideal universe, said book would also have the big "How to use this book with..." section at the back that allowed for designs to be interpretable into any extant edition. Yes, if we're going to do this FF&S thing *again*, it needs to cater to the entire Traveller community.

"Impossible" I hear you say.

"Nonsense" I respond. T4 came close, but was crippled not by its writers' ability or vision, but by deadlines and stupidity at IG. Take your time, and it *will* work.
 
Originally posted by GypsyComet:

...I would endeavor to ... extend ... the TNE concept of "more space makes for easier maintenance" expanded to cover drives (thus bringing Book 2 into the picture) and weapons. I want to be able to find design and usage models that allow for CT 1-ton turrets and TNE 6-ton Heavy Cans on the same ship, and make everything from CT's "skinny lasers and tiny missiles" to Janus mount Spinals useful in some context.

Take this ideal, and then boil it down twice, creating three systems similar to the T4 ship design systems. The big book is the "nuts and bolts" version. The second is in the HG range, while the third is at the Book 2 level. All three would be completely inter-operable.

Great ideas.


"Impossible" I hear you say.

"Nonsense" I respond. ... Take your time, and it *will* work.
Preach it, Brother!
 
Interesting stuff. I had been doing a set of alternate rules to less arbitrarily create items for my WEG D6 Star Wars RPG game... before I realized the difficulties in adapting the canonical starships, etc.

Mostly I was too lazy to completely accomidate the paradigm, though.


As far as an updated FF&S... it'd be nice to imagine what GDW might have done in a 3rd or 4th printing... But outside of some sensor rules ala the "Definitive Sensors Rules" (maybe simplified a bit like I DID do for my SWRPG...) would be all that's necessary, though more alternate tech (more fully explored along the lines of the the general Traveller Universe tech) would always be welcome.

Along with the requisite errata correction, of course.
 
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