Why all the hate for large ships?

[Tobias]

Yes, if you read through Adventure 1: Kinunir, you would think those ships are some of the toughest the Imperium has to offer. And back in the small-ship universe of 1979 or whenever, I suppose that was true.

The thing is: The "carrying enough troops to put down any rebellion in this subsector" was off even then, considering how large world populations are.

For a proper frontier feel, possibly including a small ship paradigm, slashing all world populations by a factor of 10 might be advisable.

 

[mike wightman]

The trope for battle dress back then was Starship Troopers - the book not the film.

A Kinunir could deploy a squad of TL15 BD troops, each the equivalent of a battalion of tanks at TL5-8.

Check the TLs of the Spinward Marches worlds too - very few TL13+ so a TL 15 platoon supported by a TL15 battle cruiser is going to put down any rebellion on these worlds - especially considering how cheaply the Imperium regards life.

Another thing to note is the Imperium of early Traveller adventures was more like the evil empire of Star Wars than the American Empire in space it became.

 

[Tobias]

A Kinunir could deploy a squad of TL15 BD troops, each the equivalent of a battalion of tanks at TL5-8.

Not at all, especially not if you're using LBB1 or even LBB4. A well-equipped TL6 company will tear a squad of BD infantry to shreds under those rules.

Not to mention that even in a backwater like the Regina subsector, there are several worlds which can equip thousands of TL A+ battalions without much of an effort.
But I think we've had this discussion before. My conclusion still remains the same: For a "Small ships/few ships" setup you need to change the demographic and economic makeup of the TU. Which is fine, and in practice probably not even much of a hassle. Just redefine the population codes. Off the top of my head:

Pop0-4: Normal
Pop5: 50k+
Pop6: 200k+
Pop7: 1+ million
Pop8: 5+ million
Pop9: 20+ million
PopA: 100+ million

 

[mike wightman]

Note I used the word trope - the idea of battle dress is the powered armour from Starship Troopers - not the rather feeble version the LBB rules give us.

It's notable that Battle Dress becomes more like the powered armour of Starship Troopers as you go from CT to Striker/AHL to MT.

 

[Tobias]

Note I used the word trope - the idea of battle dress is the powered armour from Starship Troopers - not the rather feeble version the LBB rules give us.

It's notable that Battle Dress becomes more like the powered armour of Starship Troopers as you go from CT to Striker/AHL to MT.

It doesn't matter much which version of the rules you use: A single BD trooper is not the equivalent of a TL A+ Field Army, which he'd need to be for a single platoon of them being enough to subdue a world with billions of inhabitants.

 

[robject]

A single BD trooper is not the equivalent of a TL A+ Field Army, which he'd need to be for a single platoon of them being enough to subdue a world with billions of inhabitants.

I think this is borne out as well in LBB4: Mercenary; however battledress and sufficient additional advantage can do impressive things.

Page 33:

Assume a BD Fire Team striker mercenary unit, and assume the TL difference is +5 in their favor -- call them TL12. Their DM is +12.

This means they could conceivably take on an Indigenous Brigade (e.g. 1500 infantry at TL7) on an equal footing.

 

[Tobias]

This means they could conceivably take on an Indigenous Brigade (e.g. 1500 infantry at TL7) on an equal footing.

Not if you assume them at TL12. A fireteam gets -8 when firing on a brigade, and the brigade gets +8.
Then again, the abstract system was not made for this anyway.

But anyway: The indigenous forces of a world like Efate would number hundreds of thousands of TL-13 troops at the very least. How is a rebellion by them to be "crushed"? Laughter? Not to mention that the horde of system defense boats such a world could easily afford would simple make mincemeat out of the Kinunir before it ever got anywhere near the planet.

If you want small ships to be important, reduce the TU's population. Nothing else makes sense, really.

 

[Mithras]

If you want small ships to be important, reduce the TU's population. Nothing else makes sense, really.

Well, I've always thought populations way too high for a frontier. Efate, Roup, Regina, Efate. How many is that, and within around 4 pcs of each other.

 

[Tobias]

Well, I've always thought populations way too high for a frontier. Efate, Roup, Regina, Efate. How many is that, and within around 4 pcs of each other.

The Regina subsector has a total population of ~65 billion IIRC. If you used my recalibration above, and allowed for some leeway, you'd end up with ~500 million total instead.

 

[rancke]

Well, I've always thought populations way too high for a frontier.

But the Spinward Marches is not a frontier, any more than the USA and Canada is. It's a border region, but it's not a frontier. Regina has been settled for 1030 years, Efate probably not much less. Frontiers generally don't last for a millenium.

Efate, Roup, Regina, Efate. How many is that, and within around 4 pcs of each other.

Don't forget Rethe with 30 billion and Enope with 6 billion. Their technology is a bit lowish, especially Enope's (TL6), but even a tax base of a paltry 6 billion TL6 people should be able to allow a few military imports.


Hans

 

[Murph]

Again HG rules lawyering by my group: 19,999 ton "cruisers" with Spinal "J" Meson, and 74,999 ton "Battleships" with Spinal "T" Meson guns. They killed anything is space, J4, 6G accel, anything bigger was just meat. That is the way the "to hit" charts worked, and my group found that out fast.