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Why are Red Stars so common?

That's really the gyst of my question. In the World design sequences, there is a 1 in 1.25 chance of a Red Dwarf star(which will have baked any planets it had) and a 1 in 33 chance of a Main Sequence star. I get the idea that "normal" stars should be uncommon, but on average 1/subsector? What's the point? If someone has a better ratio (die result range) I would love to hear it.

Mindseye

aka da Wookiee
 
Originally posted by Mindseye:
That's really the gyst of my question. In the World design sequences, there is a 1 in 1.25 chance of a Red Dwarf star(which will have baked any planets it had) and a 1 in 33 chance of a Main Sequence star. I get the idea that "normal" stars should be uncommon, but on average 1/subsector? What's the point? If someone has a better ratio (die result range) I would love to hear it.
Welcome to Citizens of the Imperium!

I have a passing interest in Astronomy, so I decided to take stab at answering your question. Undoubtedly another will come along shortly with a more authoritative answer.

Basically, I have an idea of why Red Stars (Type M) are so common, but I have had the craziest time locating a cite for it on the internet.

There used to be a truly awesome astronomy site for a university course, but that course is over and the graphics for the site have all vanished.

Nevertheless, the last paragraph on the following web page gives the clue.

See: University of Oregon: Main Sequence Stars:

Type M stars have low mass. I believe this means that they run through what fusion fuel they do have very slowly. Because of this, their "stellar evolution" is so slow that their timeframe for becoming a red giant is so long that it is has never happened to any Type M star. So, basically, every Type M star ever born still exists today. This is not true of other stars, which eventually blow themselves up in one manner or another.

Their low-mass requirement may also have something to do with how many there are. I also seem to recall that recent searches for brown dwarf populations have found far more of them than previously imagined, as well (this may also have to do with their relatively low-mass requirement; perhaps forming lower-mass object is easier, though I have no cite to back that up).
 
WARNING: very long post follows

Originally posted by Mindseye:
That's really the gyst of my question. In the World design sequences, there is a 1 in 1.25 chance of a Red Dwarf star(which will have baked any planets it had) and a 1 in 33 chance of a Main Sequence star. I get the idea that "normal" stars should be uncommon, but on average 1/subsector? What's the point? If someone has a better ratio (die result range) I would love to hear it.
I think you're a little confused here. Red dwarf stars are main sequence stars, just down at the low end mass and luminosity-wise. They are not going to be baking any planets unless said planets are exceedingly close to them.

Main sequence stars run from very hot and bright (O, B, and many A stars) through sunlike stars (dimmer A class stars, and G stars) and down to dimmer and (relative to the sun anyway) very dim stars (class K and M stars). Main sequence stars are sometimes referred to as dwarfs in contrast with giant and supergiant stars. So you will see sunlike stars sometimes referred to as "yellow dwarfs" and class M stars referred to as "red dwarfs" -- they're relatively dim and red.

Main sequence is the state that stars spend most of their time in. The larger a star is, the hotter it "burns" (actually fusion, of course) and the faster it goes through its supply of hydrogen and other fusable elements. As RainofSteel pointed out, red dwarfs burn coolest and slowest so even though they have less hydrogen by mass, they last a long, long time. OTOH high-mass stars are the brightest and hottest and are short-lived -- the biggest of them may spend less than a million years on the main sequence, while the dimmest stars will be there for many billions of years.

Once a star has burned a significant portion of the hydrogen at its core into helium, there is no longer enough hydrogen to sustain energetic fusion at its core. With less energy being produced, gravity begins to pull the star into its core. As it collapses, the core heats up due to compression until (if the star is big enough) it gets hot enough for helium to begin to fuse into heavier elements (otherwise it continues to shrink and to cool as a "white dwarf" until it someday becomes a "black dwarf" -- a slowly cooling ball of densely compressed gas).

Helium fusion produces much more energy than hydrogen fusion does so once helium ignites at the core of the star it expands to be much biggerthan it was during its main sequence phase, thus becoming a red giant. That's when it starts baking planets. The star goes through it's supply of helium much faster than it went through its hydrogen so this phase is much shorter than the main sequence phase. If the star is much less than the mass of our sun, once it burns through it's helium (producing oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon) it will slowly dwindle down into a "white dwarf" and on towards a "black dwarf." This is the eventual fate of our sun.

If the star is several times the size of our sun it will produce enough heat as it collapses to fuse carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. into even heavier elements and it will expand again out to super giant size. These super giant stars will eventually reach the point where they are fusing stuff into iron at their cores -- this is fatal. Fusion into iron or heavier elements takes more energy than it produces. The reaction sucks energy out of the core of the star and within literally minutes it begins to collapse upon itself. Once everything comes crashing down into the core you end up blowing the star apart in a supernova and the remnant left behind after all the outer layers are blasted away will become a neutron star, or if the star was very large, a black hole -- surrounded by a rapidly expanding shell of gas and debris.

Those last few moments are where virtually all the elements heavier than iron are created by fusion and then blasted out away from the star to eventually form worlds and all the other non-star stuff in the universe.

Now, how common are various kinds of stars? A principle you'll see throughout nature is that the bigger something is, the fewer of it there are. Given a square mile of forest, there will be uncountable zillions of microorganisms, million of insects, thousands of field mice, dozens of rabbits, and a couple of deer.

There are more grains of sand than pebbles, more pebbles than boulders, more boulders than hills, more hills than mountain peaks, etc.

In the solar system there are vast numbers of meteoroids, billions of small asteroids, dozens of worlds and moons, four terrestrial planets, two small gas giants, a couple of successively bigger gas giants, and one star.

Stars -- There are vastly more dim stars (red dwarfs) and almost stars (brown dwarfs) than sunlike stars, vastly more sunlike stars than really big stars, and the red giants and super giants are exceedingly rare.

Numbers:

Blue and Red Supergiants (type I & II) -- massive (like, freakin' HUGE) stars at the end of their lives. 0.000025% of stars. About 1 in 4,000,000 stars.

Red Giants (type III) -- Stars nearing the end of their lives, fusing helium, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, etc. at their cores. Average mass is about 1.2 solar masses (sols). 0.5% of stars or about 1 star in 200.

White Dwarfs -- Burned out stars, average about 1 solar mass. 8.75% or almost 1 in 11 stars.

Black Holes and Neutron Stars -- Cinders. Exceedingly rare. Perhaps .001% and .0001% respectively (I don't have actual numbers here) That would be 1 in 100,000 and 1 in 1,000,000 stars.

The rest are basically main sequence stars. I'll break those down by class:

Spectral Class O Stars (Blue Giants) -- These are so big, even as main sequence, that they're called giants. They lose whole suns worth of mass as solar winds (solar hurricaines?) blowing their outer layers off as they age. Lifespans of only thousands of years before they die spectacularly. They average about 25 solar masses. 0.0000025% or 1 star in 40,000,000.

Spectral Class B Stars -- Average about 5 solar masses. Still very hot and very short lived. Probably not enough time in their lives for planets to form out of the gas and dust orbiting them. 0.075% or 1 star in 1300

Spectral Class A Stars -- Still too hot, big, and short lived for life-bearing planets to have time to form around them -- life might get as far as oceans of yeast and stuff before they die. Average about 1.7 solar masses. 0.75% or 1 star in 130.

Spectral Class F Stars -- The hottest stars likely to harbor life-bearing planets. Average of 1.2 solar masses. 3% or about 1 star in 33.

Spectral Class G Stars -- Sun-like stars - yellow dwarfs. Average about 0.9 solar masses. 6.5% or about 1 star in 15.

Spectral Class K Stars -- Cooler and dimmer than our sun. Smaller ones will probably tide-lock planets in their habitable zones. Average about 0.5 solar masses. 13% or about 1 in 8 stars.

Spectral Class M Stars -- The smallest and coolest stars -- red dwarfs. Habitable planets will be tide-locked except under very unusual circumstances (like Mercury's 3:2 lock with the Sun). BTW recent research suggests that tide-locked planets with a decent atmospher can be very life-friendly -- they may be the most common kind of life-bearing planets in the universe. (But that's for another post.) 67.5% or about 2 out of 3 stars.

Brown dwarfs -- Bigger than jupiter, too small to sustain fusion, these are very hot compared to planets (glowing red) but cool compared to stars. We don't really have a count for them since they're hard to find (so very dim compared to stars) but the proportion of brown dwarfs to stars (of any kind) is probably at least a similar ration to that of red dwarfs to all other stars -- say perhaps 3 brown dwarfs for every star.
 
A quick and dirty set of tables using (more or less) the percentages given in the post above:

Roll two six-sided dice for each applicable table (the usual 6 by 6 Traveller matrix applies here).

Table One: Common stars
11 - 13 -- White Dwarf (burned out star)
14 - 53 -- class M (dim red star)
54 - 62 -- class K (dim orange star)
63 - 64 -- class G (yellow Sun-like star)
65 -- class F (bright white star)
66 -- class A (very bright white star) or roll on Rare Star Table

Table Two: Rare Stars
11 - 42 -- class A (very bright white star)
43 - 44 -- class B (huge blue-white star)
45 - 65 -- Red Giant (bloated dying star)
66 -- class O (ginormous blue-white star) or roll on Rare Giant Star Table

Table Three: Rare Giant Star Table
(roll one six sided die)
1 -- class O (ginormous blue-white star)
2 -- neutron star (cinder)
3 -- black hole (really crispy cinder)
4 - 5 -- Red Supergiant (really bloated dying star)
6 -- Blue Supergiant (dying ginormous blue-white star)

Really, all you need is the first table and even that over-represents class A stars. The last couple of tables make the rare stars much more common than they really are but will certainly do for game play -- trying to keep things simple. :cool:
 
Originally posted by Tanuki:
WARNING: very long post follows

I think you're a little confused here. Red dwarf stars are main sequence stars, just down at the low end mass and luminosity-wise. They are not going to be baking any planets unless said planets are exceedingly close to them.

I was confusing the next part where the chart shows M class stars haveing a habitable zone of 0. I took that to mean it had no habitable zones. Also while I've got attention is the habitable zone supposed to be limited to one orbit of a solar system, or are more orbits allowed in the habitable zone?
 
Oops, nearly missed this.

Excellent piece of work Tanuki <cut/paste>
 
Originally posted by Mindseye:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tanuki:
WARNING: very long post follows

I think you're a little confused here. Red dwarf stars are main sequence stars, just down at the low end mass and luminosity-wise. They are not going to be baking any planets unless said planets are exceedingly close to them.

I was confusing the next part where the chart shows M class stars haveing a habitable zone of 0. I took that to mean it had no habitable zones. Also while I've got attention is the habitable zone supposed to be limited to one orbit of a solar system, or are more orbits allowed in the habitable zone? </font>[/QUOTE]The habitable zone is, under the various Traveller systems, considered to be a single orbit, yes. The M class stars that have a habitable zone have it in Orbit 0 (ie. inside Orbit 1), and typically require tidal locking to make even that truly habitable.

That said, the current thought is that the "habitable" zone around a star is that zone where a planet can have a temperature range that doesn't either boil off or snow out a breathable gas mix. As such Sol's habitable zone is three or four orbits deep, comprising the orbits of Venus through Mars. Sure, Venus and Mars are not really habitable, but *could* be.
 
Hmm, so you could take a pencil to the tables in Scouts and add another category - M for marginal perhaps.
These would be worlds, like Mars and Venus, that could be terraformed over a hundred year period with TL10+ technology.
Many systems would have nothing but marginal worlds, so you select the best of a bad bunch and go to work...
 
Hmm, so you could take a pencil to the tables in Scouts and add another category - M for marginal perhaps.
These would be worlds, like Mars and Venus, that could be terraformed over a hundred year period with TL10+ technology.
Many systems would have nothing but marginal worlds, so you select the best of a bad bunch and go to work...

probably no need for a "marginal" category .... they are all of those non- habitable worlds in the inner orbits ..... often the main world for traveller systems
 
How about this for class distribution?

1) Roll for system presence as per prefered rules.

2) Roll D%:

00-00: O (No inner planets larger than SIZ-1; no LGG or SGG)
01-03: B (No inner planets larger than SIZ-3; no LGG; SGG in outer orbits only)
04-08: A
09-15: F
16-24: G
25-35: K
36-48: M (Brown Dwarf after 6.5)
49-63: L
64-80: T
81-99: Nebula (may contain gas giants (with or without moons), planets (w/wo moons), planetoids and asteroids. If so, then orbits are all 'Outer'.)

3) Roll 1d10 for subclass (0-9)
 
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Hmm, so you could take a pencil to the tables in Scouts and add another category - M for marginal perhaps.
These would be worlds, like Mars and Venus, that could be terraformed over a hundred year period with TL10+ technology.
Many systems would have nothing but marginal worlds, so you select the best of a bad bunch and go to work...

But I don't think the "marginal" habitability is due to orbit zone - if I understood correctly, either Venus or Mars could be habitable if they had different Size (mars) or atmo (Venus). Isn't it the extreme density of Venusian atmosphere that makes it so hot, rather than mere proximity to the sun? And if Mars were larger to hold a denser atmosphere, then it would be warmer than it is, right?

If so, maybe we just need to expand the H zones in the stellar tables, and then rely on what kind of planet gets generated there to determine if it is really what we would call habitable.
 
But I don't think the "marginal" habitability is due to orbit zone - if I understood correctly, either Venus or Mars could be habitable if they had different Size (mars) or atmo (Venus). Isn't it the extreme density of Venusian atmosphere that makes it so hot, rather than mere proximity to the sun? And if Mars were larger to hold a denser atmosphere, then it would be warmer than it is, right?

If so, maybe we just need to expand the H zones in the stellar tables, and then rely on what kind of planet gets generated there to determine if it is really what we would call habitable.

Venus' orbit is about 0.7AU. (1/0.7)^2≅2.041 times the solar energy per unit area. Twice the heat from the sun. It's going to be hot no matter the atmosphere; the question is "how hot" - and the CO2 atmosphere keeps in a lot more than our nitrogen one... a double whammy, resulting in melting metals on the surface.
 
Venus' orbit is about 0.7AU. (1/0.7)^2≅2.041 times the solar energy per unit area. Twice the heat from the sun. It's going to be hot no matter the atmosphere; the question is "how hot" - and the CO2 atmosphere keeps in a lot more than our nitrogen one... a double whammy, resulting in melting metals on the surface.

Yeah. I remember looking at radar images of Venus several years ago, a NASA mapping project. They found out the surface of Venus melts, along with volcanic activity. So mapping it is a moot point.

Too bad, there were lots of 'marsh/swamp under the clouds' stories years ago in sf.
 
Yeah. I remember looking at radar images of Venus several years ago, a NASA mapping project. They found out the surface of Venus melts, along with volcanic activity. So mapping it is a moot point.

Too bad, there were lots of 'marsh/swamp under the clouds' stories years ago in sf.

If it had been a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere and earthlike albedo, it would be in 50-70°C range, depending upon day. (120-160°F).

If we can seed it with Carbon binding oxygen producing bacteria, we could make it a rather unpleasant for us second earth...
 
If it had been a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere and earthlike albedo, it would be in 50-70°C range, depending upon day. (120-160°F).

If we can seed it with Carbon binding oxygen producing bacteria, we could make it a rather unpleasant for us second earth...

Ah, but what if there were a way to give your terraformed Venus an albedo higher than what we have on Earth, to reduce the amount of sunlight energy reaching the surface? That would reduce surface temp, right?

I admit that I have no idea if this is possible, or how to do it - something to increase cloud cover, maybe?
 
Ah, but what if there were a way to give your terraformed Venus an albedo higher than what we have on Earth, to reduce the amount of sunlight energy reaching the surface? That would reduce surface temp, right?

I admit that I have no idea if this is possible, or how to do it - something to increase cloud cover, maybe?

Possibly create more cloud cover, without greenhouse effect ? That would increase the albedo.

Some years ago I was watching some documentary with some British eccentrics being asked their theories on solar system formation.

The one I remember was Mars was too cold, Venus was too hot, and Earth was just right. I don't remember the name given for it.

edit: I remember the name now: The Goldilocks Hypothysis.
 
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Ah, but what if there were a way to give your terraformed Venus an albedo higher than what we have on Earth, to reduce the amount of sunlight energy reaching the surface? That would reduce surface temp, right?

I admit that I have no idea if this is possible, or how to do it - something to increase cloud cover, maybe?

When I punched the numbers into the simulator, I bumped the bond albedo up to 50% to get into the 120° F range. Mind you, that means pretty much 75% cloud cover...
 
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