Why do some people want Traveller to fail?

[Allensh]

This post is going away. it never should have been posted in the first place.

Allen

 

[aramis]

In my case, I have no desire for it to fail.

However, I also feel obligated to point out to those who ask where it isn't Edition-X. Informed purchases are usually less jolting.

It also avoids the "WTF did I just F*NG BUY!?!" crap.

 

[mike wightman]

I hope it succeeds beyond Mongoose and Marc's wildest expectations so that supplements and adventures keep appearing for the next 10 years at least.

From the Mongoose feedback it does seem to be selling well, and that's before they release their Starship Troopers and Strontium Dog etc. Traveller based settings.

Could it have been better? Yes. (CT+ and a proto-Traveller setting )

Is it a good basic rules set for a Traveller game? Most definitely yes.

I would be interested to see how many new people it has brought to Traveller.

 

[Gallowglacht]

I don't believe anybody wants it to fail.
I do believe some people dont like it.
I do believe that these people have a right to say so, and why to give others the info needed to make up their minds, before they spend.
I also believe that it has sold enough and has enough of a base that it will be succesful, even if these hypothetical people want it to fail.

 

[rust]

Right now it seems that Mongoose Traveller has an excellent chance to be-
come the second best selling RPG of 2008, and even the German version
seems to have a good start.

So, if there really were people who wanted MGT to fail, they obviously would
not have succeeded, they even would not have made any real difference -
MGT is an obvious success, far more so than almost anyone could have ex-
pected.

 

[Vargas]

I think that there are some very vocal individuals who would like to see particular versions of Traveller fail so that everyone could unite under the MGT banner and true happiness achieved. I don't know how it compares with other games issued in multiple editions over an extended period of time, but there seems to be an awful lot of factionalism associated with the game. Personally, I've been very turned off by it, I think there's room enough under the generic Traveller banner for all of us.

I believe that some people are motivated by the idea that if MGT doesn't succeed it will be the deathknell for Traveller but the same thing was said when MegaTraveller was published and now, many editions later, it's still here.

Sorry for the vent.

 

[rust]

I think that there are some very vocal individuals who would like to see particular versions of Traveller fail so that everyone could unite under the MGT banner and true happiness achieved.

I have not seen that attitude yet, although it might well be there, conside-
ring the mentality of some parts of the Traveller fandom.

"Version Wars" are not exactly rare in the RPG world. Compared to the way
the fans of the old and the new World of Darkness attacked each other for
a while, the Traveller "version battlefield" has been a very quiet one since
the time TNE was published.

Personally, I do not mind at all to which version the Traveller material I use
belongs to, I only judge it by its value for my setting and campaign. Pocket
Empires is just as welcome as GURPS Traveller Starports or the Traveller's
Aide series material.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

It really seems to me that some people around here want the new version of Traveller to fail.

...

Is it because they are so locked into the nostalagia of the past that they can't recognize that a game has to evolve or it will die?

I don't think I've seen anyone saying they want MGT to fail. Why would any Traveller fan want that?

One of the main problems is that it *isn't* an evolution - rather than build on the last 30 years of improvements it's tried to pretend they never happened.

Fortunately, MGT seems to be succeeding despite its faults, but that doesn't excuse them.

 

[jfetters]

I don't think of it as people wanting Traveller to fail, as having an entrenched vision of the version they are attached to be the definitive version. And being unwilling to rationally discuss other points of view.

This came to a head, IMO, with the Virus setting. I was just coming online and seeing the online Traveller community at that time and I couldn't beleive the crap I was seeing spewed forth. But through all those flamewars, I never thought anyone wanted to see Traveller fail. In fact, I think the opposite was (and is) true; the players are so passionate about the game that they get caught up in their own vision of it.

I agree with a lot of the others here - many different versions of Traveller just means a lot of different source material with a Traveller brand on it. Which is a good thing.

 

[Vargas]

I have not seen that attitude yet, although it might well be there, considering the mentality of some parts of the Traveller fandom.

I was thinking of a particular post of a particular forum where that sentiment was pretty much baldly expressed. I don't think it's pervasive either but I do find it disappointing.

 

[Supplement Four]

Fortunately, MGT seems to be succeeding despite its faults, but that doesn't excuse them.

Agreed.

I think some are disappointed that MGT didn't live up to the promise made when the idea was launched. Remember the press release. It sounded exciting! I was on board!!

I wondered how they were going to make a "lite" version completely compatible with T5 using an entirely different mechanic, but they said they could do it. So, I believed them.

What we got was not what was promised.

Massive dissappointment.

 

[rust]

What we got was not what was promised. Massive dissappointment.

Well, I never trust advertisements and promises ... o:

What I expected was an updated version of the original Traveller that would
be in print and available in a German translation - and this is exactly what I
got, so I am not disappointed.

Moreover, there are and will be quite a number of adventures (I am looking
forward to Beltstrike), supplements (Civilian Vehicles interests me very much),
sourcebooks (Dynasty could be even more useful than Pocket Empires), and
so on.

And there will be third parties which will produce and publish additional MGT
material (Flynn's Guide to Robots will be on my shopping list), and probably
a number of fascinating non-OTU settings among them.

Besides, the non-OTU settings published by Mongoose will use the MGT core
rules, and so I will have, for example, a fully MGT-compatible version of Baby-
lon 5 to "mine" for ideas in the not so far future.

So, while the core rules doubtless have their shortcomings, I just see them
as a start into at least a decade (I hope) of new Traveller material of various
sorts from Mongoose and others.

For me, this is a good reason to take the core rules problems in stride, and
to be happy about the things to come.

 

[Allensh]

Agreed.

I think some are disappointed that MGT didn't live up to the promise made when the idea was launched. Remember the press release. It sounded exciting! I was on board!!

I wondered how they were going to make a "lite" version completely compatible with T5 using an entirely different mechanic, but they said they could do it. So, I believed them.

What we got was not what was promised.

Massive dissappointment.

First of all, it was a little hard to be compatible with T5 when at that time T5 wasn't finished (and still isn't). Mongoose made a decision to instead make the game compatible with the best-selling version of the game.

Secondly...it might still turn out to be quite usable with T5. Given that both supposedly proceed from the same source material, if T5 is designed correctly it really should be no more difficult to use MGT materials with T5 and vice versa than it is to use MT, T4 or CT stuff with it. TNE is of course the issue here, but even that can be used.

My stance on T5 has changed somewhat...I do plan to order the CD and will likely use stuff from it in my game. But I really prefer rules light systems and like MGT on that basis.

Maybe I just didn't allow myself to get my original expectations up there too high. All I know is, around here with a whole group of Traveller newbies (only one person had played T4), they love the game and have ordered copies for themselves.

Allen

EDIT: Confession time. My initial hostility towards T5 was largely caused by the cancellation of Martin J. Dougherty's Avenger Classic Traveller project which at the time was thought to be due to T5. Information that has come to light since suggests it was really more due to the advent of MGT. ACT was excellent. and with Martin writing for Mongoose, maybe some of those good ideas will filter through into the new game now. So..I'm mellowing on the whole T5 thing. I just can't quite afford the $35 yet.

 

[atpollard]

How could some people not ‘hate’ (or at least dislike) the new version of Traveller?

Looking simply at ‘Game Mechanics’:
Classic Traveller is a much simpler game mechanic than MegaTraveller which in turn is far simpler than the FF&S level of complexity of The New Era. Mongose Traveller (from what I saw) fell closer to the ‘MegaTraveller’ level of task/combat complexity than the ‘Classic Traveller’ rules. It seems therefore, unavoidable that existing fans who preferred Classic Traveller (and feel MT and TNE were a step in the wrong direction) will find ‘Mongoose Traveller’ too complex. At the same time, those fans who embraced the increased complexity of Traveller as it evolved, will probably find the initial Mongoose Traveller book too simplistic – perhaps holding out a hope that Mercenary and High Guard will add the ‘realistic’ crunch that they like.

Looking simply at the ‘Setting’:
Classic Traveller presented a large stable Imperium to adventure in. MegaTraveller presented a cluster of small kingdoms fighting for control and survival with large tracts of ‘no man’s land’. The New Era presented an external threat that threatened the survival of each individual world. These are VERY different settings to adventure in. Mongose Traveller has clearly chosen the ‘Classic Traveller’ Era. Those fans who LIKE the warfare of the Shattered Imperium or the dark struggle of the Virus will not be happy with the old Imperium of Mongose Traveller.

Combining the existing permutations yields:

• CT Mechanics - Imperium
• MT Mechanics - Imperium
• TNE Mechanics - Imperium
• CT Mechanics - Rebellion
• MT Mechanics - Rebellion
• TNE Mechanics - Rebellion
• CT Mechanics - Virus
• MT Mechanics - Virus
• TNE Mechanics – Virus

… and of these nine historic fan groups, only one group will find Mongoose Traveller ‘everything that they hoped for’. [Note that we have not even mentioned T20, GURPS and Hero fans – who already have a commercially available game that they like.]

What I see:
What I see is for every “X version is the best and I will never change” fan that Hates Mongoose Traveller, there seems to be another rabid “Pro-Mongoose Traveller” fan that takes any observation or criticism as a personal attack on their God, Country and Mother.

Mongoose Traveller creates characters with many more skills than Classic Traveller did. This is not a criticism, just a statistical fact. MegaTraveller and TNE also generate characters with more skills than the CT LBB1 or LBB 4-7 characters (for what that might be worth).

I share the opinion of others that high skill levels can easily break the 2D6 curve. I also feel that characters with too many skills dilutes the value of each and every character. In my humble opinion, the Ship’s engineer should be essential to repairing damaged drives – the gunner and steward should not be free to jump in with their Eng-1 because every character has enough skills to operate the ship solo in a crunch.

This is a style of play issue. I find Mongoose Traveller characters a little too ‘super-hero’ [I can do anything] for my taste – but I like CT LBB 1 characters, so I am part of a significant [but vocal] minority.

 

[DaddyDragon]

I think atpollard hit the nail on the head for where I stand with regards to MGT. Certainly more eloquently than I've been able to manage over the past few months while we've watched it take shape. Thank you for breaking it down, "Glenn Beck" style.

I'm not a fan of MGT. That said, I have purchased my own copy to support it, because it is Traveller. And I'd rather see Traveller that doesn't completely meet my needs, than to not see Traveller back on the shelves in stores at all (you can quantify that with the fact that no one I game with, except my son, will ever even consider playing it).

But I'm not dead yet and there is a statistical possibility that I might, some day, find a group that does play it in some form. Its existence in stores only serves to improve those odds.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I haven't seen anyone that specifically wants MGT to fail. I have seen a lot of people very disappointed in it (including myself). It might have a lot of excitement in the sales department, but in the gaming department, it is very lacking. Is it a bad game? Nope. It has a lot of detail. Could it have better - especially with all of the hype and anticipation? Yup. I can almost compare it to the difference between the original TV Lost in Space and the movie Lost in Space, but it doesn't even have that much pizzaz to offset the differences. For a 21st century game, they could have a done a much better job of just the page layout alone. I mean, D&D and Star Wars are at least full color and the original The Traveller Book 30 years ago had red highlighting - this book doesn't even have that. As a stand alone book - if you look at it without the 30 years of everything before it and almost treat it as if it's another game, it's a good book. If you can't, it's a downer. Nobody wants it to fail, but it does so in a number of areas - just not in sales from the look of things.

 

[Gallowglacht]

I'm not a fan of MGT. That said, I have purchased my own copy to support it, because it is Traveller. And I'd rather see Traveller that doesn't completely meet my needs, than to not see Traveller back on the shelves in stores at all (you can quantify that with the fact that no one I game with, except my son, will ever even consider playing it).

This bit I dont get. And it struck me in the vote for Traveller in the ennies thread aswell.
I buy and play Traveller because its a good game, not out of Brand loyalty. It should thrive or die on its own merits.

The reason to buy MGT should be because you like it. The reason not to buy should be because you don't like it. Just because its Traveller isn't enough and shouldn't be enough. If it is bad it deserves to die, not have fans drip feed it sales like life support. I dont even think it needs the support, and MGT sales seem to back up this idea.

But I'm confused, do people really believe you should buy something you don't like just because it says Traveller on the cover? I voted in the ennies, but for Star Wars SAGA as I honestly felt it was the better product. This doesn't mean I'm not a Traveller fan, I'm currently running Traveller.

Or is it a case of supporting it so they can release a suppliament that might serve your needs. Sort of like buying Gurps Traveller stuff, because it detailed and high quality even if you don't like GURPS as a system? Because that standpoint I can understand and support.

 

[GypsyComet]

Or is it a case of supporting it so they can release a suppliament that might serve your needs. Sort of like buying Gurps Traveller stuff, because it detailed and high quality even if you don't like GURPS as a system? Because that standpoint I can understand and support.

There are, in my case, two different factors at work here.

The first is that Traveller's editions constitute a huge toolbox. Early CT, revered by so many, was obviously designed around that concept well before the Third Imperium setting came into its own, but even afterwards it remains all about the tools available to the Referee. Do I buy new tools to compliment the existing ones? You betcha. Some of them I may never use, but I know how they work (or don't) and I know they exist. I'll avoid posting my usual "edition blindspots" rant, and simply boil it down to two well known aphorisms: "Why reinvent the wheel?" and "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

Secondly, yes, "because it's Traveller". Every edition released has wanted to be "the one" that would carry the torch forward, and every edition has had that potential at the start. T4 squandered that potential very, very quickly, but the rest retained it to their last products. No product line can move forward or reach its full potential without customers, however, so I do my part in the hope that each edition will reach its potential. "Because it's Traveller" and I want Traveller to succeed.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

For a 21st century game, they could have a done a much better job of just the page layout alone.

Yeah, that's the first thing I noticed - it looks cheap and amateurish, especially compared to something like T20. The layout is dull, and most of the art is ugly or, worse, un-Traveller.

 

[DaddyDragon]

Or is it a case of supporting it so they can release a suppliament that might serve your needs. Sort of like buying Gurps Traveller stuff, because it detailed and high quality even if you don't like GURPS as a system? Because that standpoint I can understand and support.

A fair question, all the way around. But this is essentially the reason. T4 was dead on arrival, even though there were the rare diamonds in its deepest, most troubled "rough ". Mostly because of the timing of its delivery, and helped not at all by its almost complete lack of editorial competence.

But as an RPG gamer, and worse, a 'Traveller', I don't think the brand can afford another poor showing as an armed & xenophobic niche in a niche market of niches. Plus, we need to support our local FLGS if and where they continue to exist. Better to buy another new Traveller product than picking up Turd: The Flushing or some other case of buyers remorse looking for a homeless shelter. Trust me, I have shelves and shelves of those too.