Why do some people want Traveller to fail?

[Echo]

For the sake of sanity, tbeard, I've long given up on debating with you.

I wouldn't bother, if I were you (or at least, don't expect a response from me).

 

[Supplement Four]

If you were fawning fans of MGT and you went into the CT section to a thread about CT and posted NOTHING but negative opinions about CT and kept insisting that MGT was better...yes I would.

Bro, responding to the question posed in the OP is not threadcrapping.

He asked for opinions. "Why do some people want Traveller to fail?" Our answer is, "We don't want Traveller to fail...we want it to be better than what MGT is."

Like S4 could surely build an OGL-based version of the UGM, and since he wouldn't be including how to generate characteristics, he could even use the TLL and it could have the Traveller logo and everything.

No need. The UGM is there for people who want to use it.

And, why would I work on fixing a game I don't play (MGT) when I love playing CT?

It is curious that about 95% of the criticisms laid down against Mongoose Traveller, now seem to boil down to the layout and graphic design, rather than any specific issue of how the game runs, these days.

Not really. I've seen the final published book. MGT still has problems, even after playtest.

I've lost my enthusiasm for pointing out the game's flaws. Those who see them aren't playing MGT, and those who refuse to see them (or don't care) can't be swayed.

No use putting energy into that sort of thing.

 

[tbeard1999]

For the sake of sanity, tbeard, I've long given up on debating with you.

<shrug>

Making unsupported statements, then refusing to back them up is not a "debate". So since we've never "debated", it's kinda hard for you to give up on it.

Myself, I try to avoid making statements I can't support.

But it is awfully convenient to be able to excuse yourself from supporting your arguments by opting out.

 

[Allensh]

<shrug>

Making unsupported statements, then refusing to back them up is not a "debate". So since we've never "debated", it's kinda hard for you to give up on it.

Myself, I try to avoid making statements I can't support.

But it is awfully convenient to be able to excuse yourself from supporting your arguments by opting out.

Oh, you mean like the unsupported statements Supplement Four makes about how 'those who see the flaws in MGT aren't playing it"? Who are "they"? Him and a handful of his friends? Has he been doing some market research that we don't know about?

THOSE kind of statements are why I started this thread. Let's see him (and any others who want to make those kind of statements) support them with proof!

I realize that you didn't neccesarily say the things I am talking about...but this support thing works both ways.

I myself can testify to the reactions of about 12 people that I have showed the game to, and of those four have also played CT. This in no way represents "all of the MGT players". I also know what has been said elsewhere on how well the game is selling. That is the extent of the knowledge I claim.

Allen

 

[Allensh]

Bro, responding to the question posed in the OP is not threadcrapping.

He asked for opinions. "Why do some people want Traveller to fail?" Our answer is, "We don't want Traveller to fail...we want it to be better than what MGT is."

who exactly is "we"? are you seriously claiming to somehow be the voice of all the supposedly disaffected CT players? Is it you and maybe two or three other people here? or you and four or five of your friends? Have you done actual surveys or market research to find this stuff out?

Yes, replying to this thread is not threadcrapping. The threadcrapping elsewhere (and admittedly not just by you) is why I started this thread. I am specifically defining "threadcrapping" as "injecting negative commentary about a subject where such commentary is off-topic."

Allen

 

[Supplement Four]

Oh, you mean like the unsupported statements Supplement Four makes about how 'those who see the flaws in MGT aren't playing it"? Who are "they"? Him and a handful of his friends? Has he been doing some market research that we don't know about?

There are plenty of people not playing MGT. Look around.

As for "unsupported statements"...your posts seem to be asking me to stop saying negative stuff about MGT.

Is that what you want? You want me to go into detail about the flaws in MGT?

Is that what you're asking me for?

 

[Allensh]

Seems to me that, in the absence of reliable mind reading equipment, it would be more sensible to address the arguments that critics of the system make, rather than whinge on about their motives.

I'd also add my observation that a great deal of acrimony has been created by folks who seem utterly intolerant of any criticisms of the game.



First of all, your assertion that a game "has" to evolve is (a) conclusory; (b) unsupported by evidence and (c) not conceded by everyone.

Second, even if we grant the first statement, you've failed to demonstrate that MGT shows much "evolution". In point of fact, I'd argue that it is an almost completely derivative product that has little in the way of innovative mechanics or concepts. This, of course, is No Problem for me, since I have generally found that the bullsh*t quotient of a game design (and the degree of design incompetence) is often directly proportional to its claimed "innovation", "evolutionary leaps", etc.

So, considering that you've made essentially two empty assertions, I'd say that the most polite response is "answer unclear, try again".



Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing Dr. Phil.

I strongly suggest that you (a) respond to specific criticisms of the game, if you can; and (b) accept that some things are subjective, like taste.

And note that your reasoning could be applied to you -- "why are some folks so intolerant of criticism of MGT? Is it because <insert psychobabble>"?

I have stated myself that there are some issues in MGT that need to be fixed, aside from simple typos and other editing errors. One would be the assertion in the ship design system that bays take up only one hardpoint when they really should take up five (I think). Some of the other issues were fixed after the playtest, like the timing/effect thing, a system I liked but am now willing to accept was flawed and obviously Mongoose thought so too. Another would be the lack of an energy point system to prevent things like triple particle accelerator turrets. Hopefully these things will be addressed in the new High Guard.

Yes, some things do boil down to taste. Some people make bald statements like "people who see the flaws in MGT aren't playing it" which are as unsupported as anything I might have said. These things should be expressed as personal opinions, shouldn't they? Something like: "I see flaws in MGT and so I choose not to play it".

Allen

 

[Allensh]

There are plenty of people not playing MGT. Look around.

As for "unsupported statements"...your posts seem to be asking me to stop saying negative stuff about MGT.

Is that what you want? You want me to go into detail about the flaws in MGT?

Is that what you're asking me for?

I really don't think, given the number of people who play RPGS who don't come to message boards such as this that "looking around" would accomplish much. I would not expect to find a lot of people here who prefer MGT to T20, for example.

I'm asking you for a bit more consideration, to not make bald statements of opinion and express them as fact..and sure, if you really feel the need to deliniate the flaws you see in MGT, go ahead. Just don't do it in some other thread where people want to talk about the game. Ultimately, of course, I can't "make" you do anything..I just think you should be a touch more considerate.

Allen

 

[mike wightman]

Perhaps someone should do a new poll - which version of Traveller do you play...

 

[aramis]

Perhaps someone should do a new poll - which version of Traveller do you play...

Done. Click here!

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks aramis - I couldn't work out how to make a poll

 

[aramis]

Non-mods can only do so (last I checked) in the Surveys section. You tell it how many questions down below the input box, and submit post, THEN you get your poll question inputs.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'll go on record, now, before the poll gets too far populated, that what I said earlier will be reflected in the poll. You'll see that CT gets about 40% of the vote and that MGT's votes will be cannibalized from the other editions of Traveller.

If I'm wrong, I won't hesitated to apologize for my prediction.



EDIT: Of course, the way Aramis set up the poll, allowing people to pick more than one option, is diffusing results. There's something like 260%. That muddies the results.

We need a better pole, one where people can chose their prime version (regardless of if they mix it with other versions).

 

[Ishmael]

I've been watching all this, sort of

To go from arguing trivial aspects of canon to yelling "my rules are better than your rules and you're a stinky poop-head nyahh nyah nyahh" represents a new low for the community.

Shame on the mess.

I"ll bet only a very tiny group does NOT houserule and that if a vote for any particular ruleset assumes using that ruleset ONLY, the poll would be hugely lopsided with most having '0' players.

 

[rust]

I"ll bet only a very tiny group does NOT houserule and that if a vote for any particular ruleset assumes using that ruleset ONLY, the poll would be hugely lopsided with most having '0' players.

While I agree, there is an earlier poll which could serve as an at least some-
what reliable base for comparisons:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=8073

And there is also this one:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=13570

In both polls CT had about 45 - 47 %, so we should be able to compare it to
the result of the latest poll to see whether Supplement Four's hypothesis is
right,and the MGT players do indeed come from other Traveller versions, but
not from CT.

 

[Gallowglacht]

What is this thread even about?
It starts off by questioning the motives of a group that may well be fictional, then ascribes only negatives to explain their outlook. Then descends into tit-for-tat crap. Again.
Who effing cares if/why people want it to fail? It isn't failing so the whole thing is moot.
Even if it did fail, you could still play it.

Why do people care if others like your game? I personally dont like MGT but I also dislike CT *gasp, mutter, mutter*, so what?? Why does there have to be a grognard/fanboi conspiracy? Others genuinely do, vive la difference! I've met people who love RIFTS fer cryinoutloud.

The idea that there are people who have made up their minds to like/hate MGT no-matter what, if even true, annoys me a lot less than watching this pissing contest, again. And again.

Am I just missing an obsessive-compulsive gene needed to be a "proper" Traveller fan?

 

[rust]

Am I just missing an obsessive-compulsive gene needed to be a "proper" Traveller fan?

Obviously. Being a typical forum-active Traveller fan is not about playing
Traveller, it is about bashing Traveller versions. :smirk:

If you just like Traveller without hating at least one of its versions, and
being convinced that you have to tell the world at least several dozen
times, you are not a real fan - you are only a player.

Like me.

 

[Allensh]

Obviously. Being a typical forum-active Traveller fan is not about playing
Traveller, it is about bashing Traveller versions. :smirk:

If you just like Traveller without hating at least one of its versions, and
being convinced that you have to tell the world at least several dozen
times, you are not a real fan - you are only a player.

Like me.

I do not hate any version of Traveller. I even played and enjoyed TNE.

Allen

 

[rust]

I do not hate any version of Traveller. I even played and enjoyed TNE.

In which case you are more a player than a fan - welcome !

Really, following some of the discussions on this board, I have come to the
conclusion that there is quite a similarity between soccer and Traveller, be-
cause both hobbies have those who play and those who are fans - and the
nasty ones almost always are the fans ... o:

 

[mike wightman]

It's more like a scene from Life of Brian... splitters