Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

[drh]

It's their choice ultimately but it's MINE what system I support/argue for/against.

No, it's beyond that. Do you start fighting with other people who have a different favorite color than you do? You have a "right" to do that, after all. They're "wrong" after all.

It seems to me that you and others here are making a conscious, spiteful, choice to try to damage Mongoose Traveller's sales just because you don't agree with the direction it's taking. Nobody is stopping you from disliking their version, but I don't see why anyone else needs to put up with your vindictiveness in the process.

 

[Klaus]

Sorry but there is a think called "Freedom of Speech" and I will use it. It's my right to try and convince everyone who'll listen that MT/GT/TNE/CT/whatever IS better than Mgt. It's their choice ultimately but it's MINE what system I support/argue for/against. If one tells me he's not interested I'll have to accept that. Untill then all legal means to change his mind can be used.

After all if the Mgt fans get to strut out/support THEIR version and call it "the best" I have the right to do the same with mine. It's not as if one can measure "better" in an RPG so it's all opinion. And as soon as someone puts a product out he has to live with critizism. And Mgt has a lot to critizise in my opionion.

Pretty sad, profoundly arrogant, stupendously egotistical, monumentally childish, and sickeningly obnoxious.

Well done. You're now the Traveller equivalent of those Westboro nutcases.

This isn't a Freedom of Speech zone, ya know.

Criticism is fine, welcomed even. Belabouring the same trivial points over and over ad nauseum isn't criticism, it's just ranting.

 

[Whipsnade]

That actually is a great analogy.

Doc,

Actually, it's a lousy analogy, plus one that completely, and deliberately, ignores what we've been saying here. We are not saying Mongoose should stick to one setting and not put stuff in the "generic" books that isn't OTU.

What we are saying and what has has been repeatedly stated by myself and others is that Mongoose should actually produce a generic core book and than present Traveller as just one setting among the many that use that generic core book(1).

Mongoose has done nothing of the sort, they decided to take the cheap route and cash in on the nameplate instead. Now even they in the person of Matt now acknowledge that their earlier decisions are problematic because they've agreed to produce Traveller setting pdf - something that supposedly wasn't necessary before - to be used to differentiate non-OTU material from the mass of actual OTU material in their allegedly "generic" core books.

Both D&D and Traveller started off as being generic systems by which you could make your own setting.

Neither was a truly generic system and continually repeating that mistaken statement that they were does not somehow make it true. Both had underlying technologies, technological assumptions, and design philosophies that constrained the settings that could be crafted from their systems as much as any rules printed in any book.

The warp and weft of a fabric might be a good analogy with which to explain the point of these underlying constraints to people like you and Allen. I can use a piece of cloth to produce almost any number of items ranging from sheets to shirts to socks. However, no matter how many items I do make, the manner in which the cloth is made and the materials it is made from - the weft and warp - ultimately constrain the items I can make from the cloth.

Because of the material used, plus the way it is assembled - the weft and warp - , some cloth is used for some items and other cloth used for other items. You don't normally make a handkerchief from denim and you don't normally make work pants from silk. You can produce denim handkerchiefs but they won't work well and it's a waste of denim.

We're saying that Traveller's weft and warp make it unsuitable as a truly generic sci-fi RPG. We're also saying that using Traveller as a generic RPG damages both it and the unsuited settings crammed into it.

Traveller has not had someone else to say that this alternate universe is equally valid.

Traveller has always had alternate universes. This site and other Traveller discussion fora are littered with the phrases like Original Traveller Universe, Alternate Traveller Universe, In My Traveller Universe, and In Your Traveller Universe. The material I receive themost email about, Wounded Colossus, is an alternate universe.

What all these alternate universes have in common however are the underlying constraints of Traveller's warp and weft. They all fit the non-generic rules of a non-generic game.

Mongoose Matt is Traveller's Gygax.

You owe me a new keyboard.

Mr Miller fills the role of Gary Gygax. As for Mongoose Matt, I feel that time will reveal his role to be that of Gygax's ex-wife.


Regards,
Bill

1 - I don't know how or why someone can't be aware of that position, it's been stated repeatedly throughout this thread. You needn't agree the position but you should at least be aware of it if you've been reading what we've been posting.

 

[mbrinkhues]

No, it's beyond that. Do you start fighting with other people who have a different favorite color than you do? You have a "right" to do that, after all. They're "wrong" after all.

It seems to me that you and others here are making a conscious, spiteful, choice to try to damage Mongoose Traveller's sales just because you don't agree with the direction it's taking. Nobody is stopping you from disliking their version, but I don't see why anyone else needs to put up with your vindictiveness in the process.

You have to put up with my opinion just as I have with yours. If you don't like mine, use the ignore function. I can (and did) state my problems with Mgt and the way Mongoose is taking the game quite precisely. Mongoose has done little to make me believe it will change for anything better, actually the contrary looks more likely when one reads some of the latest words from MongooseMatt(1)

Same with everybody else. You publish your option, I publish mine. You support your preferred version, I support mine. Each reader/player makes the final decision. If that means people by a Traveller version not published by Mongoose that only means my arguments where better, my promotion more successful and/or my choice had a better quality.

Oh and to answer your rethoric question:

There is a difference between something I do care about (Traveller) and something I don't (favorit color). Same with i.e wether one likes oWoD or nWoD, DnD 3 or 4. I don't care so I don't get involved.

Now if my neighbours favorit color is bright pink and he paints the walls facing my window with it, I will look up building restrictions and will fight that color.


(1) Actually when I asked the original question I was interested in an answer. What MongooseMatt said in this thread changed my opinon on Mgt (and Mongoose) a lot. And not for the better

 

[mbrinkhues]

Pretty sad, profoundly arrogant, stupendously egotistical, monumentally childish, and sickeningly obnoxious.

Well done. You're now the Traveller equivalent of those Westboro nutcases.

This isn't a Freedom of Speech zone, ya know.

Criticism is fine, welcomed even. Belabouring the same trivial points over and over ad nauseum isn't criticism, it's just ranting.

Klaus: It may not be a "Freedom of Speech" zone. But what is allowed and what not is neither yours nor mine to decide.

Oh and there are quite a few, quite massiv points to critizise in Mgt. I ommited some (quality of physical product, layout, error checking,...) and stated others.

As for the rest: There's an ignore function on this board.

 

[dmccoy1693]

... that Mongoose should actually produce a generic core book and than present Traveller as just one setting among the many that use that generic core book(1).

And there we have the basis for our disagreement. Mongoose did put out a generic core book. Its called the Traveller Main Rulebook. Then they published a supplement called the Spinward Marches. This is exactly how Miller did it back in the day. Miller created a system called Traveller. He created a supplement called the Spinward Marches. Mongoose published a system book called Traveller. They again published a supplement called the Spinward Marches.

Choosing to define Traveller as having anything to do with the setting is not consistant with how Miller did it back in the day.

Mr Miller fills the role of Gary Gygax.

I'll give you that since Gygax created the system. I was likening Miller to Anderson. Gygax created Greyhawk after Anderson created Blackmoor.

But for system purposes, I'll give you he's Gygax as well.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Maybe those who link Traveller with Setting look at the fact that for most of it's existence in time and editions when you bought Traveller you got the 3I setting/timeline.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Maybe those who link Traveller with Setting look at the fact that for most of it's existence in time and editions when you bought Traveller you got the 3I setting/timeline.

Fair point. But how Millerian is that? Miller's initial vision was for a system by which someone could create their own setting. As I understand it he only created the Spinward Marches under pressure from fans that didn't want to make their own setting. So even he defined Traveller as a system. In that sense, Mongoose is holding true to Miller's original vision and can be called quite Millerian.

Did I just coin a new term or has that existed for a long time? Millerian?

 

[robject]

a) I don't have to accept anything. I can fight them, hassle them, give them bad reviews, support "everything BUT Mgt" and do a dozend other things that might or might not hurt their sales.

I'm using "you" in a general sense, not necessarily you, mbrinkhues.

And you can be a responsible netizen, making certain that your actions don't have unwanted side effects. For instance, you could take pains not to project the impression that Mongoose Traveller players should just go away and stay on the Mongoose forums.

Unless, in fact, you want them to go away, at which point you're forming an unofficial policy (call it a reputation) for COTI.

But if you think the tone of our posts in this thread are reasonably amiable, note that posters on the Avenger forums also think that about their posts, and yet it's abundantly clear that many are not welcome there.

 

[Allensh]

Pretty sad, profoundly arrogant, stupendously egotistical, monumentally childish, and sickeningly obnoxious.

Well done. You're now the Traveller equivalent of those Westboro nutcases.

This isn't a Freedom of Speech zone, ya know.

Criticism is fine, welcomed even. Belabouring the same trivial points over and over ad nauseum isn't criticism, it's just ranting.

So, since CT fans "strut" and promote their version over there, do I get to go over there and post redundant "criticisms" that really boil down to "I'm pissed off because people like some other version of Traveller than what I like: and disrupt that board?

Well I'm not going to. I am better than that. And I might add, if I did, we all know what the mods would do...what they DON'T do here.

Klaus: this was not directed at you. It was a comment on mbrinkhues's quote, mainly because I have him and some of these other "gentlemen" on ignore. I completely agree with and support everything you said above.

Allen

 

[mbrinkhues]

Fair point. But how Millerian is that? Miller's initial vision was for a system by which someone could create their own setting. As I understand it he only created the Spinward Marches under pressure from fans that didn't want to make their own setting. So even he defined Traveller as a system. In that sense, Mongoose is holding true to Miller's original vision and can be called quite Millerian.

Did I just coin a new term or has that existed for a long time? Millerian?

That's one of the problems some (I'd say in this thread/forum the split is 50:50) have with the Mgt way. On it's own that could be resolved. Add in feelings, options, real problems and perceived ones(1) as well as how the words off MongooseMatt CAN be taken and you get a mix that might make a good substitue for an FAE.


(1) I.e the balancing in the combat system is a perceived one depending on how realistic/deadly you like it. Me I am a GURPS/T2K 2.2 man, I like PCs to live dangerous

 

[Kilgs]

And if it has been common knowledge that Mercenary was substantially revised, then I withdraw my criticisms (to the extent that they are no longer valid).

Both High Guard and Mercenary were replaced, free of charge and delivery, by every customer who asked Mongoose. This was done almost immediately after the mail orders went out and the problems were discovered.

In fact, rpg.net opinion was of the sort that it was the most generous and accomplished customer service by a game company in many years.

 

[mbrinkhues]

So, since CT fans "strut" and promote their version over there, do I get to go over there and post redundant "criticisms" that really boil down to "I'm pissed off because people like some other version of Traveller than what I like: and disrupt that board?

Well I'm not going to. I am better than that. And I might add, if I did, we all know what the mods would do...what they DON'T do here.

Klaus: this was not directed at you. It was a comment on mbrinkhues's quote, mainly because I have him and some of these other "gentlemen" on ignore. I completely agree with and support everything you said above.

Allen

Cute, I answer it anyway. Bet he reads it.

Actually if you had READ some of the critizism you might find out that it has value. Some depend on ones preferences but options play a role in this. A lot is "hard" fact and very little is like/dislike.

As for the rest: Would you please stop using the term "gentleman" (with or without quotes) for me. I am a good Proletarian Worker, not one of those lazy "gentry" stuff!

 

[mbrinkhues]

Both High Guard and Mercenary were replaced, free of charge and delivery, by every customer who asked Mongoose. This was done almost immediately after the mail orders went out and the problems were discovered.

In fact, rpg.net opinion was of the sort that it was the most generous and accomplished customer service by a game company in many years.

The Customer Service was good. But a product that didn't NEED that level of customer service would have been a lot better.

 

[Kilgs]

Our general approach is gaining us a great deal more. It is a harsh thing to say, but clearly true. There are a handful of the veterans that have obviously been 'left behind' with this decision. The thing is, we don't feel too bad about that, primarily because said veterans already have their own game, and have had it for years. Others, of course, have bought into the idea of a more expansive Traveller.

By opening Traveller up to more people, more gamers are included - which could _not_ have been done if we had stuck with OTU alone.

More power to you!

 

[far-trader]

And there we have the basis for our disagreement. Mongoose did put out a generic core book. Its called the Traveller Main Rulebook. Then they published a supplement called the Spinward Marches. This is exactly how Miller did it back in the day. Miller created a system called Traveller. He created a supplement called the Spinward Marches. Mongoose published a system book called Traveller. They again published a supplement called the Spinward Marches.

Choosing to define Traveller as having anything to do with the setting is not consistant with how Miller did it back in the day.

Not to belabor the point but you're missing it.

Traveller was not a "system" it was a game. Complete and whole unto itself in LBB1-3. Being a game it included several things that made it NOT generic and set a definite tone. Nobles, Jump Drives, etc. It has never been generic. It has always had a setting background implicit in the rules.

Supplements that followed, such as the Spinward Marches setting were built entirely upon that. Supplements did not invent the Imperial setting, they detailed it.

Mongoose is trying something else. They want to have their cake and eat it too by calling a generic system Traveller and then presuming to be able build multiple settings upon that core generic ruleset.

They've got something that is largely recognizable as Traveller (NOT generic, again for the same things that made CT Traveller and not generic, Nobles, Jump Drives, etc.) and intend to build Third Imperium settings based on that (but failing some because some core bits of their "Traveller" are not suited to the 3I setting). They also intend to build many non-3I settings upon their not-so-generic not-so-Traveller rules and I can't see how that will succeed well either.

It all starts to look like something being rushed to market to capitilize on the rebirth of the brand.

It would have been better* (as a game and settings) if they'd skipped the whole let's do Traveller idea and just built a house generic system and then created settings for that from all the great settings they're looking at. They could even have included a 3I setting if they'd been interested in getting Traveller fans.

* more work initially but less in the long run, better rules, less Traveller fans looking over their shoulders, but then they wouldn't have had this built in market and loads of free publicity, yes even the bad publicity has won them sales, and I'm sure a significant portion of sales are to Traveller completistists who may never play it, so sales are no fair mark of success as a game before you jump all over that defense

 

[dmccoy1693]

Unfortunately, there isn't much I can do about anything you said, mbrinkhues. But this one:

(1) I.e the balancing in the combat system is a perceived one depending on how realistic/deadly you like it. Me I am a GURPS/T2K 2.2 man, I like PCs to live dangerous

How do you like your combat system? Sorry I never played GURPS or T2K 2.2. Tell me about it.

ACtually... hold that thought. I'm going to fork that to a different thread. (I have a publishing company and I know how to use it.)

 

[Whipsnade]

Mongoose did put out a generic core book.

Doc,

They. Did. Not. Period.

I can't repeat that any clearer.

They took Traveller, whose settings are constrained by it's underlying warp and weft, and bolted on a few geegaws. Putting a fangs on a duck doesn't make it a vampire.

MgT is generic? Where's my phaser then? Transporters? Mecha? Geneering? Where's all the other sci-fi stuff in what is allegedly the CORE rules book for a sci-fi RPG?

Mongoose did it on the cheap. They added just enough generic stuff to damage Traveller while adding not enough other stuff to create other settings. GURPS Space is a generic rules set. MgT is a shoddily produced attempt to cash in on a nameplate.

Its called the Traveller Main Rulebook.

Which isn't generic by any stretch of the imagination.

Then they published a supplement called the Spinward Marches.

Which is a setting book.

This is exactly how Miller did it back in the day.

No. No matter how many times you claim it to be so, Traveller never was truly generic. This has been explained to you, with specfic examples, repeatedly throughout this thread. Traveller was never truly generic.

Miller created a system called Traveller.

Yes, a system constrained by it's underlying weft and warp.

He created a supplement called the Spinward Marches.

Yes. He also inserted specific setting materials more and more into what you want us to believe were the core books of a generic sci-fi RPG system. GDW made a mistake by not fully separating rules from setting. Mongoose is furthering that mistake, despite having the example of GDW before them..

Mongoose published a system book called Traveller.

Which is generic in advertising and not in fact.

They again published a supplement called the Spinward Marches.

Yes, they published a setting book that used many setting specific materials found in the allegedly their setting-free core book.

Choosing to define Traveller as having anything to do with the setting is not consistant with how Miller did it back in the day.

You still don't understand, do you? This thread is over 300 posts and you still can't grok what`we've been saying. I've explained the situation, Ty's explained the situation, we've both presented our points in various ways to make them comprehensible, and you still don't understand.

Is it that you don't want to try to understand?

We're not talking about Traveller originally being generic, because it wasn't really generic. We're not talking about Traveller originally being setting free, because it really wasn't setting free. We're not talking about Traveller later being limited to a single setting or being defined by a single setting, because that never happened. We're talking about how Traveller's [basic construction naturally limits it to a certain range of settings.

The way in which Traveller is BUILT limits it's utility in certain sci-fi settings. You can force those settings into Traveller but you end up damaging both the setting the the game.

I'd love to see Mongoose produce a generic sci-fi RPG rules set and then produce Traveller materials for that rules set. However, they have not yet produced anything even remotely resembling a generic rules set and no one can truly claim they have.

This isn't a disagreement over opinions, everyone is entitled to their opinions. This is a disagreement over facts and the facts are wholly against you.

The fact of the matter is that MgT is not yet a generic sci-fi rules set. Matt himself has authorized a pdf meant to separate setting specific OTU materials from generic sci-fi materials in MgT's allegedly generic and setting free core rules book. Why would that pdf be needed if, as you suggest, the core book was a generic system and the Marches supplement contained the setting materials?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Both High Guard and Mercenary were replaced, free of charge and delivery, by every customer who asked Mongoose.

Kilgs,

High Guard and Mercenary were replaced as you said. Ty is asking about revisions.

Mongoose replaced the books due to typos and other printing errors. The errors in the various rules and tables still remain.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Colin]

The fact of the matter is that MgT is not yet a generic sci-fi rules set. Matt himself has authorized a pdf meant to separate setting specific OTU materials from generic sci-fi materials in MgT's allegedly generic and setting free core rules book. Why would that pdf be needed if, as you suggest, the core book was a generic system and the Marches supplement contained the setting materials?


Regards,
Bill

That's not exactly true. Matt authorized the creation of a PDF that denotes what things are OTU-compatible. Not which things are OTU-specific. There is a difference.