Actually, you're missing a couple dTons of obvious somethings. Let's start from the beginning...
DangerousThing said:
1. Most relatively high population planets are self-sufficient, for the most part.
They aren't or, more accurately, they weren't. The Vilani deliberately fostered economic dependency across the nearly whole of the Ziru Sirka. Relatively few worlds made everything they needed, relatively few worlds even had substantial populations. It's how the Vilani kept their collective boot on the collective necks of dozens of Minor Races for over a thousand years.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize this. Where is the source for this? I thought that everything that long ago was pretty much rumors. Obviously I was mistaken. It happens occasionally.
Whipsnade said:
DangerousThing said:
I don't know what the TL/populations of planets were right before the Long Night.
And that's why you don't understand the Long Night. Nearly every world had "holes" in it's economy deliberately put in place by the Ziru Sirka and, with the Ziru Sirka enforcing an IP rights regime like something out of your nightmares, those "holes" are there to stay.
Add these "holes" to limited populations and you'll see that a lot of bootstrapping needs to occur when the system runs down.
Again, I'd like to know of a *published* Traveller source for this. Not a wiki. Not an interpretation of a small remark in a book. Not one of the developer telling us things, but an official source.
Whipsnade said:
DangerousThing said:
I tend to agree in the main with John Sneed's article in Freelance Traveller #11, in which he mainly talks about the background tech in Traveller.
Sneed's article is merely an update and elaboration on Loren Wiseman's decades old explanation for the "lack" of things like bio-tech and those seemingly clunky computers.
Again, I have noticed other articles similar to John's article, but John's article talked about nanotechnology.
Whipsnade said:
DangerousThing said:
John has limited nanotech...
Let's stop right there. Repeat after me:
Drexlerian nanotechnology is thermodynamic horseshit. Got it? Good. Now we can proceed.
No, we can't proceed. Drexler's nanotechnology is based on true prototypes: viroids (viruses without casing), as well as much of the machinery of life. Machines built on a molecular level can work.
I'm not saying that the entirety of Dr. Drexler's will work. He was one of the initial proposers of an entirely new area of technology.
However, stating that it won't work because of thermodynamics is ridiculous. Again, if you're going to do this, please quote accurate sources. Maybe then you'll convince me.
Whipsnade said:
Most of the problems in discussions regarding nanotech can be traced back to the post-industrial society most of us live in. Too many people are completely oblivious with regards to how the many goods they use are actually manufactured, just as too many people are completely oblivious to how their food is produced thanks to our being in a post-agricultural society too.
We're using nanotech right now. We've been using nanotech for decades. Your printer uses nanotech. The dyes in your clothing uses nanotech. I can't even begin to list the ways in which nanotech impacts your daily life right now.
First, I do understand manufacturing, transportation, and economics fairly well, thank you. At least I understand them for the current day and have to extrapolate to the future. I'm not an expert, though, and I do get things wrong.
Whipsnade said:
Sneed's vats of gray goo which can be programmed to produce food or steel on a whim are thermodynamic horseshit.
First, why? Second, there are no vats of gray goo. Gray goo is a horror story of nanotechnology. At TL-12, his vats are composed of general purpose assemblers which only assemble the nano-tech needed to do a job.
Whipsnade said:
Nanotech will be used and nanotech is being used. They just won't be used in the way you foresee. If you want to get a handle on the future of manufacturing, think along the lines of 3D printing.
Nano-materials are being used right now, but not true nano-tech.
Whipsnade said:
Then take the step that too many people fail to take because too many people aren't involved in manufacturing anymore. Think about the myriad of "feedstock" nanotech and 3D printers will require, think about the materials they'll need to make the things you want, think about the "purity" or "refinement" those materials must posses, and then think about how those feedstocks will be made.
Beginning to glimpse the picture?
Not yet, sorry.
Whipsnade said:
Imagine wanting the nanotech/3D printers on Arglebargle-IX to produce iPod-5700s. You've got the schematics, the instruction sets, everything you need except for some rhenium feedstock. Making maters worse, the rhenium needs to be in powder form, particles at X microns with Y variance, washed a certain way, degaussed a certain way, suspended in a certain colloidal form, plus a dozen other requirements and no one on the planet knows how to make it. No one on the planet has even mined rhenium before.
Yes, if you don't have one of the raw ingredients then your SOL. Though perhaps if you have good programmers, you can substitute something else, or you just make a different item.
Also, I picture two different ways to get around this problem. Assuming a source of rhenium can be found and the specs on the exact form, then you program you input to take another form of rhenium and convert it to the correct form, or change the program so it takes the rhenium you have. Yes, it might take longer to get to the finished product.
Whipsnade said:
You've got a TL12 marvel of "additive engineering" ready to crank out your consumer goods and you can't even feed it correctly. Can you even begin to imagine the industries, techniques, and technologies you'll have to re-invent, re-learn, and re-create just so you can feed your mini-facs?
Again, I think that you may be thinking too linearly, that a nano-vat can only perform one thing at a time.
Whipsnade said:
DangerousThing said:
Therefore, most systems with enough population to need large-scale manufacturing should have it.
As you should be beginning to understand, that assumption is totally unsupported.
Sorry, but I disagree with so many of your basic assumptions about nanotechnology.
Whipsnade said:
On a final note, the Long Night is what the Third Imperium perceives the period between the Rule of Man and Year 0 to be. We perceive the period between the fall of the western Roman Empire and the Renaissance to be the "Dark Ages", but it really wasn't. You should look at the Long Night in the same manner.
Traveller has always been about wheels within wheels, about looking beneath the labels and at the core of things. Look at the Zhodani or the Major Race issue for example. Stop taking in-game descriptions and labels at face value and start thinking about the same. It's what makes the game so much fun.
Finally, this is something that is actually informative. Unfortunately while I have a great deal of information about the 3I setting, I don't see or I have missed small casual references that you seem to take so strongly about the prehistory of the 3I.
And to me, the history of the game universe isn't something that a player or GM should have to guess at. If it's important, it should be written out.
As for the Zhodani or Major Race issue, they are something to get into at another time. Both of these are clearly propaganda issues that the 3I have a vested interest in continuing. IMTU I don't even bother with Major/Minor race idea and my Zhodani analogs (The Aquarian Federation) is normally a fairly peaceful race of genetically enhanced superhumans who think the Empire is is an evil, expansionist, race of thieves, cowards, and criminals. So people being people, propaganda works both ways.
I've gotta run, my tiredness is catching up to me big-time.