Ah, but what Whartung is noting is that there are no BBs either: the principal (ship of the line, capital ship) is the Cruiser. "BB" in AOTI is an informal term.
Wiki Discussion: Ship Mission Codes
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Ah, but what Whartung is noting is that there are no BBs either: the principal (ship of the line, capital ship) is the Cruiser. "BB" in AOTI is an informal term.
I am not understanding this conclusion. Since the only terminology we have for BCS ships is AotI, which uses both the "informal" terms "Battleship" and "Cruiser" for different vessel types, how do we arrive at the conclusion that Battleship is merely a colloquialism, but Cruiser is a formal term? I am not certain that we can just extend the ACS ship classifications to BCS sizes.
In ACS a Cruiser is a Primary Offensive Combatant. But in BCS sizes, a "Cruiser" is explicitly subordinate to a "Primary", even in the colloquial terms.
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So since "Cruisers" historically have ranged over a wide variety of sizes and mission-specifics, even if the BCS Primary is officially a "Cruiser" (based on the specified ACS terms for Primary Offensive Combatants), then your suggesrting that the specific cruiser sub-type would be related to its size, from Battlecruiser (or "Capital Cruiser") at the high end (~100 kton +) down to Light/Escort Cruiser at the low end (approaching the ACS "Colonial" Cruiser in size). So ALL BCS Offensive Combatants would fall under the Cruiser rubric, with an appropriate modifier.
Destroyer could still formally be a larger vessel distinct from the Cruiser sub-type since it is listed as a "Special" Offensive Combatant without relation to size (just not a Primary).
Am I understanding correctly?
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Well that's how it falls out when I fool around with the codes, with what I understand to currently be the case. Pending changes as usual, since things do change.
Classic Traveller avoided some of this by having a separate set of mission codes for High Guard ships. But a Cruiser could still be 800 tons, or 80,000 tons.
Classic Traveller avoided some of this by having a separate set of mission codes for High Guard ships. But a Cruiser could still be 800 tons, or 80,000 tons.
Here's what I was seeing in Agent of the Imperium:
BCS codes follow an informal nomenclature. Commonly, they are only referred to by their secondary codes, with the main code omitted. Presumably the main code is known so well or so common that it's assumed by the source.
| Agent Mission | Agent Mission Code | T5 Mission Modifier |
|---|---|---|
| Armored | A | Armored |
| Beam, Battle | B | Battle |
| Monitor | D | Defense |
| Fast | F | Fast |
| Flag | F | Flag |
| Fighter | F | - |
| Strike | K | - |
| Lander | L | Lifeboat |
| Missile | M | - |
| Orbital | O | - |
| Quarantine | Q | Quarantine |
| Rider | R | Rider |
| Slow | S | Slow |
BCS codes follow an informal nomenclature. Commonly, they are only referred to by their secondary codes, with the main code omitted. Presumably the main code is known so well or so common that it's assumed by the source.
| BCS Codes | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Code | CT GDW | CT High Guard GDW | AOTI MWM | Reference | Remarks |
| AF (AFE) | - | - | Auxiliary Fast Corvette | AOTI 44, 57, 60, 65, 67 | "Corvette" (E) is assumed. |
| BB (BBC or BBG) | Battleship | Battleship | Beam Battle Cruiser Beam Battle Frigate | AOTI 9, 18, 62-63, 84, 96-99 | "Cruiser" (C) or (less common) Frigate (G) is assumed. |
| BBF (BBFC) | - | - | Beam Battle Flag Cruiser | AOTI 67, 250 | "Cruiser" (C) is assumed |
| BF (BFC) | - | - | Battle Flag Cruiser | AOTI 52, 56 | "Cruiser" (C) is assumed |
| BK (BKC) | - | - | Battle Strike Cruiser | AOTI 65, 189-190, 200-201, 206, 211 | This is a Tigress |
| BKF (BKFC) | - | - | Battle Strike Flag Cruiser | AOTI 29, 34, 100 | "Cruiser" (C) is assumed |
| BMF (BMFC) | - | - | Battle Missile Flag Cruiser | AOTI 116-117, 119-120 | "Cruiser" (C) is assumed |
| BR (BRG or BRB) | Battle Rider | Battle Rider Frigate Battle Rider Boat | SMCp35 | "Frigate"/"Boat" assumed | |
| CB (CBC) | Carrier Battle Cruiser | SMCp35 | "Carrier" (C) is assumed |
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In T5 the Destroyer is a "Special" offensive ship, and not a type of Escort (which is what Supplement 9 calls it).
So Destroyers have some go-git-em capability, perhaps to pursue and destroy minor annoyances. The destroyers in S09 are 1000 tons, but there's no reason we can't have a 100,000 ton destroyer. It would certainly be formidable for establishing a zone of control for active bad-guy suppression.
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I agree 100% there. I'd like it if the codes were distinct. There are ways of getting that. I think the system in T5 is a foundation, leaving that open to interpretation.
I know there are a finite set of Big Ship codes. Perhaps it's just a matter of enumerating them and that's that. As Thomas said elsewhere, if the codes are broad enough that should be OK.
In fact when you say "CA" I think of ships like the Ghalalk, which is very definitely a Big Ship.
Similarly when I hear "BB" I know it's a Battleship / Dreadnought. So there's momentum behind making sure we can use these codes as usual, while explaining how they extend (or differentiate from) ACS in a clear manner.
When I look at Supplement 09, SMC, Battle Rider, and AOTI, I see some codes that "should be" unique for BCS:
| Code | Ship Type |
|---|---|
| BB, BBL, BBH, BBK... | Battleship, Dreadnaught. Light, Heavy, Strike... |
| BR, BRL, BRH, BRK... | Battle Rider. Light, Heavy, Strike... |
| BT | Battle Tender |
| CC, CA, CF, CH, CK, CL... | Cruiser, Armored, Frontier, Heavy, Strike/Intruder, Light... |
| DD, DA, DF, DH, DK, DL... | Destroyer, Armored, Frontier, Heavy, Strike/Intruder, Light... |
| ?B | Battle Carrier |
| ?F | Fighter Carrier |
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So I tried to enumerate the BCS, and came up with a matrix that's more or less Battle-Classy. But I think that some of this effort is wasted.
Consider the Armored Cruiser. This can be a 2,000 ton mercenary vessel with a pile of armor and a brace of turrets. Or it can be a 60,000 ton up-armored Ghalalk.
Frankly it doesn't matter that they're both "C". We will never talk about them in the same context.
Now let's fast forward to BCS tournaments, where you bring your squadron and I bring mine. => By the way, you'll win, because I am really not very good at wargames.
We each have a supported squadron of cruisers. You call yours a CA squadron. I call mine a CH squadron. Is there going to be enough distinction in a single letter to accurately and safely differentiate yours from mine?
I mean, does "Armored" really mean "If a Cruiser, then it has between 8 and 16 layers of armor"?
And, does "Heavy" really mean "If a Cruiser, then it displaces between 75,000 and 100,000 tons"?
How do we pick those setpoints? And is that worth the effort? And is that what matters when we're comparing cruisers?
Or... as Thomas has been beating his drum... is it enough to know that they are each Cruiser Squadrons, and also to know the price of each?
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Consider that secondary codes could be misleading... on purpose.
And also consider that =size= is probably the best differentiator between ACS and BCS. Price being second best.
"This is my 2,400 ton Cruiser." => Obviously ACS.
"This is my 10,000 ton Cruiser." => Obviously BCS.
"This is my 5,000 ton Cruiser." => Obviously a liar.
And also consider that =size= is probably the best differentiator between ACS and BCS. Price being second best.
"This is my 2,400 ton Cruiser." => Obviously ACS.
"This is my 10,000 ton Cruiser." => Obviously BCS.
"This is my 5,000 ton Cruiser." => Obviously a liar.
This has been my contention: a BCS is clearly distinguishable from an ACS based on displacement. A BCS Cruiser is clearly not an ACS Cruiser by simple observation - there is no confusion. If it comes down to the Imperial Navy assigning a BCS code to an ACS ship (even an ACS Cruiser) attached to a BCS Fleet, its Main Mission Code would be "A" (Auxiliary), with appropriate ACS modifiers (e.g. AAC - Auxiliary Attack Cruiser).
Just a reminder about human tendency, Rob: If the core only includes ACS, there are those who will ignore the BCS rules entirely, and have BB's by role at the size caps of the ACS rules.
It's been that way since CT Bk5 was released... and again in MGT... for a perfect example of the mindset, see my Elestrial Concordat setting... the "BB" of that setting is 2000Td... for a MGT1 hacked setting.
It's been that way since CT Bk5 was released... and again in MGT... for a perfect example of the mindset, see my Elestrial Concordat setting... the "BB" of that setting is 2000Td... for a MGT1 hacked setting.
Now that this conversation has drifted off to another place, back to the original purpose.
In addition to the primary mission code, of which we have 12 (at minimum) and possibly as many as 15 depending, and given the no ACS/BCS split in codes for in-game ship mission codes, I'm going to turn my attention to the secondary or modifier codes. Zero to two are attached in some manner to the primary code to more exactly define the ship mission. Or in some cases confuse it.
These are from the T5 core rules, with a few modifiers added from MT and CT. The T5 rules specify the modifiers as either leading (Modifer - Primary) or trailing (Primary - Modifier). We can add as many new options (or make new ones) as needed.
Once this table is finalized (to the extent it could be) I'll bring up setting the final codes for the known primary codes.
In addition to the primary mission code, of which we have 12 (at minimum) and possibly as many as 15 depending, and given the no ACS/BCS split in codes for in-game ship mission codes, I'm going to turn my attention to the secondary or modifier codes. Zero to two are attached in some manner to the primary code to more exactly define the ship mission. Or in some cases confuse it.
| Code | Modifier name(s) | |
| A | Alternate, Improved, Armored, Attack | |
| B | Boat. Bulk. Battle. Big. | |
| C | Close. Carrier. Communications. Construction. Cutter. | |
| D | Defense. Defending. Interceptor. Transport | |
| E | Escort. Essential. Electronic Warfare | |
| F | Fast. Fat. Frontier. Far. Flag. Free. Fleet. Figher | |
| G | Gunned. Upgunned. Gas, Governmental. Gig | |
| H | Fuel. Tanker. Hydrogen. Heavy | |
| J | Survey. Prospector. Interface. Intruder | |
| K | Subsidized. Fast, Diplomatic, Courier | |
| L | LR. Lifeboat. Exploratory. Light. Leader. Launch. | |
| M | Military. Militia. Mercenary. Motivator. Tug. Mining, Missile | |
| N | Naval. Nuclear. Fleet. Non-standard. Pinnace. | |
| P |
| |
| Q | Disguised. Decoy. Quarantine, Mother | |
| R | Recon. Rescue. Rider. Resident. Raider | |
| S | Slow. System. Special. Luxury. Small. Strike. Survey. Shuttle | |
| T | Tramp. Tender. Transport. Tanker. | |
| U | Unarmed, Hulk. De-activated. Inoperative | |
| V | Vehicle Carrier, Drone. Remote. Replenishment. Agricultural | |
| W | Unpowered. Non-Jump. Barge | |
| X | Experimental. Special. Express. | |
| Y | Hull. Subhull. Pod. Rider. Modular. Private. Shuttle. Cutter | |
| Z | Unassigned, Experimental. |
These are from the T5 core rules, with a few modifiers added from MT and CT. The T5 rules specify the modifiers as either leading (Modifer - Primary) or trailing (Primary - Modifier). We can add as many new options (or make new ones) as needed.
Once this table is finalized (to the extent it could be) I'll bring up setting the final codes for the known primary codes.
That’s not a lie, that’s a treaty cruiser.
I’ve got a suggestion re: small craft.
Use a small letter s to denote small craft, then a capitalized modifier to denote classic type or function.
So sP for pinnace, sF for fighter, sL for lab, sS might mean shuttle or scout, etc.
Alternatively, lower case lead for small craft type and second if any for mission modifier- p for pinnace, f for fighter, sL means shuttle lab and sS is shuttle scout.
Use a small letter s to denote small craft, then a capitalized modifier to denote classic type or function.
So sP for pinnace, sF for fighter, sL for lab, sS might mean shuttle or scout, etc.
Alternatively, lower case lead for small craft type and second if any for mission modifier- p for pinnace, f for fighter, sL means shuttle lab and sS is shuttle scout.
I like that!
sFL - Fighter (Light)
sFH - Fighter (Heavy)
sFB or sFM- Fighter (Missile or Torpedo-Bomber)
sFA -Fighter (Attack)
sFR -Fighter (Recon)
sFF - Fighter (Interceptor/Pursuit)
sA(R)(Y) - Lifepod
sLL or sLS - Cockboat
sL(R) - Lifeboat
sL - Launch
sG - Gig
sB - (Ships)Boat
sBS - Slowboat
sP or sN - Pinnace
sPS or sNS - Slow Pinnace
sCF - Runabout
sC - Cutter
sCY - Modular Cutter
sCH - Fuel Cutter
sS - Shuttle
There is a small craft code table on the Ship Identifier page as well (T5.10 Book 2, p.68: Table "Q").
Also note that in common or colloquial usage the "s" might typically be dropped (such as on a tail fin #). But the "s" code may still be common in record databases for clarity.
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