Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Car ferries.
Trillion Credit Squadron, the 1981 tournament!
- Thread starter Ron Gianti
- Start date
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Yes, but as Spinward Flow said, it depends on whether you are defending one world or ten.
If the defender are defending ten worlds with ten small SDB fleets, and the attacker attack with a single fleet payed for by five worlds the attacker will defeat each world in detail and win the war.
As usual a purely defensive posture can't win a war, it can only delay or limit an attackers options.
At a guess you'd want a small SDB detachment at each world to defend against small raids, and a large mobile fleet.
If you are a single world polity the equation changes as you can't risk to lose your single world, or even a single battle over your world.
If the Imperium is defending a sector against basically raiding hordes, I guess we have a combination of those cases. The few important high-pop, high-tech systems has to be defended in place, with a mobile fleet to go hunt and kill the raiders. Smaller worlds have hope for the best...
Kakistocrat
SOC-12
Since they’re armed only with sandcasters and missiles on a 99-ton hull, they’re not exactly typical ships of the line.
Luckily for their crews, they didn’t have to face their own squadron.
Perhaps as sacrificial fighters for covering a retreat?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
If they only need to "hold the line LONG ENOUGH for a rendezvous with tenders to retreat" maneuver, having something that you can use "on the cheap" to soak fire while the "bigger iron" makes a getaway would seem to have a LOT of value.
Granted, the crews of such craft would KNOW that their mission role is to act as a rear guard (and get chewed up and abandoned while the fleet escapes) ... but at the "admirals playing chess" level of tactics, strategy and doctrine, it makes a lot of sense to sacrifice some "cheap stuff" rather than the really "expensive stuff" that's hard to replace.
Moritūrī tē salūtant.
Kakistocrat
SOC-12
And the non-standard meanings of the “digits” from U through Z for this ship were explicitly documented (as also happened with the non-standard “digits” of the Arakoine-class on p. 29, the Ghalalk-class on p. 30, the Atlantic-class on p. 32, the Antiama-class on p. 36, the Tigress-class on p. 38, and the Kokirrak-class on p. 42), per the third paragraph on p. 47; this was not the case for any ship in Lenat’s squadron.
Judging by Fighting Ships, when that happens, the non-standard “digit” meanings are explicitly documented.
As always I read here about such contests and fleet engagements according CT:HG, I think two details dominate them:
2) If the same TCS rules included (just to give an example, not necessarly those numbers) 1 CO with Ship tactics 5 and 3 with ship tactics 3 and one Pilot with skill 5 and 3 with skill 3, I gain guess things would have shanged quite a lot. Artifical? maybe, but not more than the limit to pilots, and I guess such a fleet could well have those special hightly trained (or gifted) individuals, and any logics say they will be put on command of the best ships (unless nepotism or corruption interferes, as we have in several historical examples, but that's another question)
If you can give a single ship a +2 to effective computer and a +2 to effective agility, a single very large ship (let's say a Tigris) may dominate the space against hordes of smaller ships, as only one of them can match this, and if this one is quite less powerful (as you have to pay for your hordes of smaller ships) the modifiers for it may well be irrelevant,. Add to this the effect of the lesser ones (the ones giving only +1) and the full picture changes.
And this (unlike point 1) does not need any HG rules changing, only tournament rules (and not large changes on them), nor does it add too much to complexity, while, again I guess, fully changeing the strategies and gives the large Battleships some reason to exist...
Those are only my guesses, as I have not run numbers, but sure some of you can tell if it would really have effect or not...
- the forfeiting of ammo needs in HG rules
- not using the rules about Individuals
2) If the same TCS rules included (just to give an example, not necessarly those numbers) 1 CO with Ship tactics 5 and 3 with ship tactics 3 and one Pilot with skill 5 and 3 with skill 3, I gain guess things would have shanged quite a lot. Artifical? maybe, but not more than the limit to pilots, and I guess such a fleet could well have those special hightly trained (or gifted) individuals, and any logics say they will be put on command of the best ships (unless nepotism or corruption interferes, as we have in several historical examples, but that's another question)
If you can give a single ship a +2 to effective computer and a +2 to effective agility, a single very large ship (let's say a Tigris) may dominate the space against hordes of smaller ships, as only one of them can match this, and if this one is quite less powerful (as you have to pay for your hordes of smaller ships) the modifiers for it may well be irrelevant,. Add to this the effect of the lesser ones (the ones giving only +1) and the full picture changes.
And this (unlike point 1) does not need any HG rules changing, only tournament rules (and not large changes on them), nor does it add too much to complexity, while, again I guess, fully changeing the strategies and gives the large Battleships some reason to exist...
Those are only my guesses, as I have not run numbers, but sure some of you can tell if it would really have effect or not...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
How do you budget for having an elite crew rather than a green crew?
To get an elite crew requires extensive drills and training, should that be included in the crew cost?
To get an elite crew requires extensive drills and training, should that be included in the crew cost?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Crew quality costs money.
Heroic characters cost the equivalent in money, or to be more precise, resources expressed in monetary terms.
Heroic characters cost the equivalent in money, or to be more precise, resources expressed in monetary terms.
Doesn't Traveller posit salaries linked to skill level?
So a +1 crew (skill-2 vs the assumed skill-1 standard) would cost +5% or 10% more (I don't have the LBBs with me at the moment).
[Does Striker have anything on unit cost vs skill level to use as a guide?]
Well, lack of crew quality rules is anotehr of my usual critiscisms for HG, but here I'm talking just about asingle individuals, albeit key ones.
Just roll the number of officers such a fleet may have and let's see how long it takes to roll the characters I said...
Did Nelson cost more than any other aldmiral? Or Richtoffen more than other pilots?
Sure, but TCS tournaments didn't care about crew salaries (nor about maintenance costs, for what's worth), just about building costs...
And even they did, how much would the 20-40% salary incerease in less than a dozen individuals affect those fleets budget?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That is the crew salary, how much does an F35 pilot get paid vs how much does it cost to train said pilot to elite standard.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I agree it should be, I would guess it was a note for the fleet that fell away when typeset for JTAS.
If we base it on HG Chargen, an officer may reach those skill levels in several terms, elite status coming with time. They will not be ususal (that's why I suggest a specific numbers of them, same for both contendents), but I guess IN has several of them, and if merit is the way to propotion, they will be put in their main ships, so maximizing their good skill, Their effect on a Tigris would be quite more than on a destroyer...
But all of this is not the point I tried to enforce. My point is that those problems in tournaments may be (at least) mitigated within HG rules ar written.
The problem was in tournament rules, not in HG ones (and not saying HG didn't had any).
But all of this is not the point I tried to enforce. My point is that those problems in tournaments may be (at least) mitigated within HG rules ar written.
The problem was in tournament rules, not in HG ones (and not saying HG didn't had any).
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
No, but perfectly normal fighters?
Or any spinal or missile 3+ battery...
The point of sacrificial fighters are that they are difficult to silence, agility is the point of fighters in general. Any battery big enough to hit it is big enough to inflict size-crits, so armour isn't all that important.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
You would need them to cover battleships too, using all your power to jump from the battleline, hence with no agility or screens, is a recipe for disaster.If they only need to "hold the line LONG ENOUGH for a rendezvous with tenders to retreat" maneuver, having something that you can use "on the cheap" to soak fire while the "bigger iron" makes a getaway would seem to have a LOT of value.
Granted, the crews of such craft would KNOW that their mission role is to act as a rear guard (and get chewed up and abandoned while the fleet escapes) ... but at the "admirals playing chess" level of tactics, strategy and doctrine, it makes a lot of sense to sacrifice some "cheap stuff" rather than the really "expensive stuff" that's hard to replace.
Moritūrī tē salūtant.
You can use missile frigates (size A) ships too, but at a guess they would take even more crew losses under spinal fire.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Crew salaries are basically irrelevant compared to the cost of ships and bases.
In TCS it's a small fraction of the 10% per year operating cost.
IIRC a current fighter pilot costs something like 10 M$ to train, most of it flight time.
Compared to the entire F-35 programme, calculated to cost trillions...
Whatever the pilots are payed, it's peanuts.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
LBB2.81, p16.
Crew salaries increase by +10% for every +1 Skill Level of individual crew members.
(Just realized)
the individuals rule in HG gives a DM (in computer effective rating for Ship Tactics and effective Agility for Pilot) of (skill-1)/2. So, to have a +1 you need skill 3, while skill 5 would give you a +2 and skill 7 a +3 8and so on, but I guess even skill 7 would bbe quite exceptional, if it ever exists)
Isn't "elite standard" an oxymeron? Doesn't elite mean far beyiond standard?
This does not mean one's Armed Forces standard may not be elite for another one's standard...
Did Richtoffen's training cost more than any other German pilot in WWI?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
For the Eurisko it would mean something like dropping Agility w/o tanks from 2 to 1 to free 550 Dt, enough for in the region of 100 rounds of missiles. It would even make the ship cheaper, paying for the missiles. No major biggie, as the enemy would suffer similarly...
For a rider w/o jump drives to worry about, it's even less of a problem. It would further bias towards riders and against ships.
Do we want to fight 100+ rounds (over a day of continuous combat)?
Sure, why not? Just add it to the scenario definition. TCS is not closed, it's just a basis for your own scenarios.
At a guess it wouldn't make all that much of a difference, possibly bias ship-design towards larger spinals rather than smaller. That giant ship will still go poof as soon as an enemy spinal hits home, and the enemy would have a lot more spinals...
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