Lull?

[Supplement Four]

A bit of a strange reaction to Mongtrav, If you havent seen it then how can you make an informed decision about it, some of what was in the playtest didnt make it into the final release.

I'm interested in MGT, or should say "was" interested. My interest is waning. I keep trying to find something that gets me excited about it.

I am excited about the future planned releases. I'd like to see those when released.

But, to answer your question, I've read just about every review and post in this forum about MGT. Plus the paytests. So...I feel I'm fairly familiar with the ruleset. Just not excited about it.

(And for clarity: S4, you ARE allowed to be negative about it outside the mongoose section. Not in the mongoose section, which you consistently have been.)

Oh, that's brilliant, Wil! Makes a lot of sense. Rocket science. So, you're saying I can offer my opinion about the game outside of the game's forum...just not inside the game's forum, where the game is being discussed.

Man, sometimes you just astound me.

Why don't you go ahead and edit your post above so that's it's in red--that way you can slap me for arguing with you as a mod!

Hey! Another brilliant idea!

 

[Spinward Scout]

So, you're saying I can offer my opinion about the game outside of the game's forum...just not inside the game's forum, where the game is being discussed.

Wouldn't you get flagged for posting in the wrong forum then?

o:

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm interested in MGT, or should say "was" interested. My interest is waning. I keep trying to find something that gets me excited about it.

I am excited about the future planned releases. I'd like to see those when released.

But, to answer your question, I've read just about every review and post in this forum about MGT. Plus the paytests. So...I feel I'm fairly familiar with the ruleset. Just not excited about it.

Originally Posted by aramis:
And for clarity: S4, you ARE allowed to be negative about it outside the mongoose section. Not in the mongoose section, which you consistently have been.

Oh, that's brilliant, Wil! Makes a lot of sense. Rocket science. So, you're saying I can offer my opinion about the game outside of the game's forum...just not inside the game's forum, where the game is being discussed.

Just my personal observation here. As an owner of MGT, when I post with a question about the book - In the Mongoose Forum - and I'm looking for clarification I do not like how sidetracked the thread almost always gets with negative comments about MGT and how it is better and different from whatever the posters favorite version of Traveller is. I've even seen posts that go so far as to say I should have bought the version of Traveller they are promoting instead of Mongooses. Those types of comments certainly don't answer my question.

I did find peoples comments and comparisons helpful before deciding to buy MGT. Maybe it is better suited here in the Lone star. It would be nice if the Mongoose thread was more on target for the people who own Mongoose and not a place for others to vent.

I'm not saying that anything anyone has posted is correct or incorrect. It's just my opinion that maybe certain comments are better suited to a different forum or thread.

Maybe thats what aramis was getting at?

 

[G K Zhukov]

Getting the thread back on track...

Maybe the perceived lull means vanished anticipation. I mean MGT is here - everyone who bought it is reading and/or playing it. No more guessing games about how it will be.

Personally, I am still anticipating the rest of the series... and playing my own guessing game about how many of my preorders will Amazon cancel.:rofl:

On the other hand, we do seem to have a lull on the T5 and COTI fronts. Don't we?

 

[aramis]

Wouldn't you get flagged for posting in the wrong forum then?

o:

No, Lone Star is a relevant place. It's general discussion.

And it's not my decision. It was Hunter's. I just enforce it. And, mind you, no where near as ruthlessly as The Laughing Policeman used to....

 

[Border Reiver]

No, Lone Star is a relevant place. It's general discussion.

And it's not my decision. It was Hunter's. I just enforce it. And, mind you, no where near as ruthlessly as The Laughing Policeman used to....

:rofl::rofl:

And wasn't he a bundle of laughs. Especially when he started banning people for no reason, no explanation and with no warning. :nonono:

Not really his fault though, I believe there was an issue with his account.

 

[aramis]

TLP was rather harsh and abrasive as a moderator. To this day I still have no idea who he was/is. And I'm scared to check.
[...]
Checking merely revealed he's european.... blank of useful data.


But, compared to the moderation on some of the other boards I've been active on, he was mild. Catholic Answers, for example, where mods routinely lock threads due to trivial topic drift. Mongoose, where threads oft get deleted for one or two violations. several of the delphi forae, where mods take no action at all, unless the complaining individual is of the correct ___... (the one coming to mind was an ex-mormon discussion board... where current moromons were oft attacked visciously, but say one thing bad about being ex-mormon, or ANYTHING pro-catholic, and POOF! Deleted post.) Or the playtest boards for WFRP2E... where the GW rep was deleting posts because he felt the designer shouldn't see critiques of mechanical choices, merely have playtest as a proofread.

 

[jfetters]

Any perceived "lull" could also be a matter of annual timing - it's summer now, and lots of folks may be busy with things for a time.

 

[soloprobe]

Huh?

If there is a perceived lull.......I don't see it.But, I get to play Traveller regularly. I bought mongoose traveller ,because I'm a grognard....But I'm impressed with what I've read ..so much so that I'd like to see more.......Does mongoose publishing have plans to make mongoose traveller g.m. screens?

 

[tbeard1999]

S4 did participate in the playtest.... complaining about it then, complaining about it now. (And for clarity: S4, you ARE allowed to be negative about it outside the mongoose section. Not in the mongoose section, which you consistently have been.)

I think that S4 *did* participate in the playtest -- at least as much as many fans of the system IMHO -- until he got shouted down in the other forum. Just my perception, of course.

In any case, it seems rather dubious to me to dismiss his comments because he didn't "participate" -- by some subjective definition of the word "participate -- in the playtest.

I'm also troubled by the assertion that posters can be "negative" about MGT outside the MGT forum, but not inside it.

First, what's the rationale for allowing "negative" comments everywhere except where they would be most relevant and on-topi.

Second, what kinds of statements are considered "negative"? That word could easily encompass a great many legitimate complaints about the game.

Are complaints about the mechanics or data "negative"? Are complaints about "realism" considered "negative"? Or do they only become negative after a certain amount of bile is expended? And what about opinion? Is it okay for someone to say (in effect) "I just don't like it"?

Surely, Hunter does not intend to quash all criticism of MGT in the MGT forum, right?

If so, then I suggest that the forum be renamed to the "MGT Unconditional Love" forum or somesuch. That would, I think, suggest to gamers its true value...

If not, then perhaps a few examples of "negative" statements with examples of critical statements that would not be considered "negative". (I stipulate that some subjectivity is unavoidable in such cases, and am NOT calling for a completely objective set of rules. I just want some idea of how far the term "negative" reaches.)

 

[tbeard1999]

Re: the "Lull"

I have noticed that the COI MGT forum is typically most active when someone is complaining about the game. I'll bet the same was true of the Mongoose MGT forum. Interestingly, a quick -- and wholly spurious -- glance at the COI MGT forum indicates to me that often, it's the fans of the game that create most of the traffic. The pattern seems to be thus:

MGT Hater A says "I hate the game".

MGT Fanboys 1-6 respond with "MGT is fabulous"

MGT Haters B&C chime in that they also hate the game and reply to Fanboys 1-6.

MGT Hater A responds to Fanboys 1-6.

Fanboys 1-6 respond to MGT Haters A-C.

Fanboys 7-8 join in.

Eventually, a moderator reprimands one or more of the MGT haters. (Interesting, the Fanboys seldom, if ever, get reprimanded, though I still can't see any defensible difference between those who unconditionally love a game and those who unconditionally hate it. Nor have I noticed that the fans are any better behaved, on average, than the critics.)

Etc.

I noticed that the moderators -- Aramis in particular -- have lately been far more diligent about issuing reprimands for "negative" posts in the MGT thread. Whatever the merits (or lack thereof) of such a policy, I'd expect for it to lead to decline in traffic because it will unavoidably chill *any* criticisms of MGT. The chilling effect is exacerbated when the rules are vague or undefined (as, I contend, the current rules are).

And if threads critical of MGT decline, I'd expect overall traffic to decline. Which seems to be what's happened.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I don't hate the Mongoose game. I just think it suffers from JARS or Just Another Rule System. I didn't see it bring anything new to the Traveller Table. The core book had less in it than The Traveller Book.

 

[tbeard1999]

I don't hate the Mongoose game. I just think it suffers from JARS or Just Another Rule System. I didn't see it bring anything new to the Traveller Table. The core book had less in it than The Traveller Book.

I think that you may have pithily encapsulated my bottom-line view of MGT.

At the end of the day, it's hard to get excited about MGT. It seems to me that the best parts of the game were lifted more or less intact from previous editions of Traveller, and that the crappy parts (from a mechanical and game play standpoint) were added by the MGT design team. An exception to this is the chargen system. I applaud it, though I think its implementation is seriously flawed. But that's really about it.

Personally, I wish that the designer had spent his energy refining the systems that worked and replacing the ones that didn't work with solid replacements. However, it seems to me that WAY too much energy and effort was expended on "Gee Wiz" mechanics like the T/E system and the appallingly defective initiative system.* While MGT is to be congratulated for ditching those mechanics, the decision should have been made far sooner than it apparently was. The result was that the final MGT combat system has a rushed feel to it and I find it unsatisfactory. The damage and armor system is too simplistic and manages to be needlessly fussy at the same time. More extensive playtesting should have unconvered these flaws. But then, competent playtesting should have uncovered the flaws in the original T/E system and initiative system. If I were Mongoose, I'd be seriously concerned about my playtest system...

*The "we're updating Traveller for a new generation of fans, so you old farts need to get used to it" meme became particularly annoying to me. Way too often, it was deployed to excuse lousy mechanics, dubious design decisions and pointless deviation from established Traveller canon. And ironically, at the end of the day, MGT has little that can be honestly characterized as "new" or "innovative". Which is fine with me, since I see no inherent value in "newness" or "innovation". At the end of the day, an RPG rules set is a tool. And I judge tool by how well they work, not by how good they look...

And the scope of MGT is worse than you imply. MGT has about as many pages as LBB1-7 + the chargen parts of Supplement 4. Yet at best, MGT covers the same ground as LBB1-3 with 2.5 times the pages.

 

[Border Reiver]

Perhaps that is because negative comments are "essentially" flamebait whereas the "fanboys" (somewhat derogatory itself depending on the context) are for the most saying positive things. :devil:

I gather that most "discipline" goes on behind the scenes by way of PMs so I would think the accusation of bias is somewhat unwarranted.

Remember that the mods are only human, just as culpable as you and I of making errors of judgement and letting the emotions rule. That is why there is more than one moderator.

 

[Border Reiver]

I think that you may have pithily encapsulated my bottom-line view of MGT.

At the end of the day, it's hard to get excited about MGT.

I agree, mainly as there just isn't enough there.

*The "we're updating Traveller for a new generation of fans, so you old farts need to get used to it" meme became particularly annoying to me. Way too often, it was deployed to excuse lousy mechanics and dubious design decisions. And ironically, at the end of the day, MGT has little that can be honestly characterized as "new" or "innovative". Which is fine with me, since I see no inherent value in "newness" or "innovation". At the end of the day, an RPG rules set is a tool. And I judge tool by how well they work, not by how good they look...

I'm sure many of us will feel a bond with these opinions.

 

[Odegra]

It's like TNE all over again

Why do people not get that they can just ignore MGT and carry on playing whatever they want? Though I think it's disingenuous of tbeard and supplement4 to complain so much... they still perpetually complain about MGT even though the rules they complained most about were actually changed by Mongoose. And yet even though Mongoose listened and did something about it (arguably because of more reasoned and more calmly put arguments than they presented), why do they still seem to have a persecution complex about it?

I can do without the disparaging comments from them too. Just because I'm not marching in step behind them about MGT rules issues doesn't make me a "fanboy" (or the more petty/disparaging sounding "fangoose" that tbeard is fond of using).

 

[Border Reiver]

It's like TNE all over again

Why do people not get that they can just ignore MGT and carry on playing whatever they want?

Allow me to award you the prize for most sensible post of the thread.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I agree, mainly as there just isn't enough there.

How many more books will you have to buy to get what you want from the Mongoose version? If I had stock in the company, I'd say it was a good move, but from a consumer standpoint, it sucks.

And they could have at least had UPPs for the subsector map. And where's the Library Data? (this is the right forum for this, right?)

 

[Odegra]

And they could have at least had UPPs for the subsector map. And where's the Library Data? (this is the right forum for this, right?)

How many books did you have to buy with CT to get all that though?

Don't forget that MGT is supposed to be the core rules for SF gaming, not just for the OTU. So they're leaving the OTU-specific stuff for supplements, and keeping the main rulebook as generic as possible.

 

[tbeard1999]

Perhaps that is because negative comments are "essentially" flamebait whereas the "fanboys" (somewhat derogatory itself depending on the context) are for the most saying positive things. :devil:

Heh.

I gather that most "discipline" goes on behind the scenes by way of PMs so I would think the accusation of bias is somewhat unwarranted.

I'm making no accusations. I merely observe that most of the public reprimands seem to be levelled against critics of the game, and that in my opinion, the fanboys are usually no less obnoxious than the critics.

And since the critics tend to be outnumbered by the fans, the disparity is even more stark than it first seems.

(This, by the way, is a key weakness of responding mainly to the quantity of complaints, rather than to their merits. If this is the COI moderator MO, then the result is to unreasonably punish unpopular ideas.)

Remember that the mods are only human, just as culpable as you and I of making errors of judgement and letting the emotions rule. That is why there is more than one moderator.

All true, but a real problem can arise (IMHO) if the owner has the same rules for his moderators as for himself. As the owner/creator of COI, hunter has every right to be as arbitrary as he chooses. Of course, he has a strong incentive to be as reasonable as possible -- he's expended a lot of effort to build COI into a major Traveller portal and arbitrary conduct can sabotage his efforts. Thus, his investment in COI acts as a curb to overly arbitrary conduct.

But someone who does not have the same investment in COI will have fewer incentives to avoid arbitrary behavior. Such a person will not have to make the same cost-benefit analysis and will (IMHO) tend to be less constrained. And heaven forbid that the person has a Napoleon complex. Someone like that can cause a lot of damage to COI.

Personally, I'd prefer there to be some recourse for someone who has been unreasonably treated by a moderator. While I wouldn't expect an appellate court system in a gaming forum, I'd like some way to appeal acts by moderators that seem overly arbitrary. Of course, everyone would want to appeal their reprimand, so some cost should be exacted on those who appeal and lose. At the end of the day, such a system is probably unworkable.

If so, then it seems to me that the moderators should be strongly encouraged to act with a very light touch. And as a free speech "near-absolutist", I'd argue for as little interference with the content of someone's posts as possible. At the very least, I think that a moderator should refrain from issuing reprimands in threads in which the moderator has participated. I don't have a problem with prohibiting personal attacks; but I think that they should be enforced equally and consistently. Selective enforcement of a reasonable rule is abusive of moderator authority.

(Caveats: Not accusing anyone of anything. These are hypothetical discussions only. Personally, I've been fairly treated by hunter, though I didn't always agree with his reasoning. With few exceptions, the same is true of the other moderators.)