Duke on board - Need Advice

[BlackBat242]

And as you might recall, when "fluff" contradicts rules, I usually take the rules.

Also note that the Navy is about the only service where this happens.

An example of a meaningless title is the Southern-US "Colonel".

Example: Colonel Edward M. House served not only as intimate friend and chief political advisor to President Woodrow Wilson (USA, 1912-1920), but also as a national security advisor and senior diplomat (from 1913 to 1919).

He never served in any military, but got his "rank" for political warfare. House helped to make four men governor of Texas: James S. Hogg (1892), Charles A. Culberson (1894), Joseph D. Sayers (1898), and S. W. T. Lanham (1902). After the election House acted as unofficial advisor to each governor. Hogg gave House the title "Colonel" by promoting House to his staff.

 

[Rev Round]

So he's a Duke so what! He's not a King. Only a tiny minority of Dukes have power and influence of the powerful. He might find himself politely sidelined if he tries to push his non-weight around. (His credibility reduced to shreds for his efforts and a pitiable sight. Pity is not the highest form of respect.) Aristos are usually more intelligent than that. Which might be a clue as to how seriously he is treated by other aristos. :nonono:
If you want to align your concept of a Trav Duke to the emperor of Earth use Queen Victoria as a model. British Empire still holds the record. I just don't think the OTU is big enough for that number of powerful influential Dukes.

That's the problem with soc and rank being confused in one stat. Level implies rank.
Our Duke may be respected for his good works. Preservation of an extensive collection of stamps. A powerful and smooth operator amongst stamp collectors. Unheard of outside his interest. Even unknown on his home world.

You could make him Wellington without an army for comedy value I suppose but...

do you really want a boring Hollyweird cliché?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I finally have to jump into this...

So, as I have a few characters in the background with a extremely high Social (F+ or it would be if the chart went that high) I have been thinking about Titles, Rank and such.

One of the things that is rattling about in my head these days is the concept of the Royal Household and its Staff. The Exchequer, Chamberlain and the like. Perhaps the Duke in question is a distant member of the Imperial Household or Staff, with the Title given as part of the Duty and Authority of the Station.

IIRC, (lazy and don't feel like pulling the reference out of the proper MT book, though, I believe it's the Imperial Encyclopedia [or the AAB IMTU]) it does make mention of Titles given to holders of various Imperial Offices. It doesn't have to be hereditary, though some are and it would give the "Duke" a Job to do and could be used for interesting Plot Hooks and such.

Just a thought.

Laterness,
Magnus.

 

[rancke]

And as you might recall, when "fluff" contradicts rules, I usually take the rules.

Even when the rules are demonstrably unrealistic? Social rank isn't something that is added to whatever social rank you had before your elevation. It's something you gain when your circumstances change. A guttersnipe may have very little chance of becoming an officer in the Imperial Navy. But if he does, he immediately becomes an officer and a gentleman. That's a SL jump of six or seven in one go. Contrariwise, an Imperial baron doesn't become a reward duke just for becoming an admiral but only for performing some great service to the Imperium. And, just assuming for purposes of argument that Imperial dukedoms were handed out just for being an Imperial baron who made it to Admiral, it would be all, or practically all, Imperial barons who made it to Admiral; not just a few who managed to roll the right numbers with the mustering out dice.

Incidentally, what you call "fluff" I call background information. Information that far more often than not is more accurate than rules which by their very nature simplify a complicated situation down to a few manageable die rolls.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So he's a Duke so what! He's not a King.

No, he's far more powerful than any king.

Only a tiny minority of Dukes have power and influence of the powerful.

Almost all dukes have immense power and influence. All the ones that are mentioned in canon have.

He might find himself politely sidelined if he tries to push his non-weight around.

And you base this claim on what, exactly?

If you want to align your concept of a Trav Duke to the emperor of Earth use Queen Victoria as a model. British Empire still holds the record. I just don't think the OTU is big enough for that number of powerful influential Dukes.

I usually use Queen Elizabeth as an example, but by all means let's use Queen Victoria. Imagine a world that was a cognate of 19th Century Earth as an Imperial member world. That would be an UWP of, say, C866877-5? Queen Victoria is the nominal ruler of tens of millions of TL 5 people and, what, a couple of hundred million TL 3 people? She wouldn't even rate an Imperial knighthood. CognateEarth itself might get an Imperial marquis because of its total population, but it might only get a baron because of its tech level.


Hans

 

[rancke]

One of the things that is rattling about in my head these days is the concept of the Royal Household and its Staff. The Exchequer, Chamberlain and the like. Perhaps the Duke in question is a distant member of the Imperial Household or Staff, with the Title given as part of the Duty and Authority of the Station.

To restate something I said in a previous post:

Even if the sole perk of being a duke was:

"The character is able to get to talk with every Imperial noble, bureaucrat, and officer anywhere at a moment's notice (He may have to wait a few hours for an audience, but mostly he will be gain access immediately). This does not guarantee that they'll believe him or accept any suggestions of his, but it does mean that they will listen to him and consider his words".

Don't you think that alone is a pretty big advantage for a PC?

Now add the disadvantage:

"The character is newsworthy. Everywhere he goes, people will pay attention to him and what he does. Rich sycophants will fawn on him and paparazzi will dog him. He can't go anywhere or do anything without dozens of people noticing."

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to either ref or play such a character.

IIRC, (lazy and don't feel like pulling the reference out of the proper MT book, though, I believe it's the Imperial Encyclopedia [or the AAB IMTU]) it does make mention of Titles given to holders of various Imperial Offices. It doesn't have to be hereditary, though some are and it would give the "Duke" a Job to do and could be used for interesting Plot Hooks and such.

You really should get hold of GT:Nobles. It has detailed information about the Imperial bureaucracy and the noble rank you need to hold each title (Only the very top ones require a duke).


Hans

 

[aramis]

You really should get hold of GT:Nobles. It has detailed information about the Imperial bureaucracy and the noble rank you need to hold each title (Only the very top ones require a duke).


Hans

And isn't canonical...

Canon provides 6 levels of nobility, plus knights. (CT library data, MT IE):
Baronet, Baron, Marquis, Count, Duke, Archduke. Plus Knights below, and Royals above.

MTIE specifies that Counties and Duchies are not Honor Nobles, but proceeds to show:

The rare titles of the high nobility are given for “political support in office, victory in the military, or contributions or economic assistance from the commercial sector” beyond any reasonable expectation. Patents are hereditary (upon confirmation of the Moot) and almost always include a fief or feudal estate granted by a letter of enfeoffment.​

(MTIE, p13)

A PC duke need not be "well known" and might even have just a few shares of a megacorp and a small apartment as a fief. Enough for minimum support...

In this case, the PC need not have a local fief, and probably got his circlet for political and tactical support of the Emperor's agenda... or for military victory... or for being the right man in the right place at the right time. He's still not a Sector nor Subsector duke, and still not a major power.

He's got access to every major nobleman in the sector... and probably knows every long-service admiral, as well... at least by rep... IF this is his home sector.

 

[Colonist4711]

Hello all. I am brand-spanking new to Traveller but a long time fan of science fiction, and apparently a lot of stuff that shares roots or inspiration from Traveller.

I've just started my first Traveller game, and I'm trying to keep MTU as close as I can to the OTU as I can at this point. Well, here is the thing. One of my players ended up rolling up a character with a 15 SOC.

So, he's a Duke. Now this happened as a mustering out benefit from the Navy, which I included as part of his story of receiving news upon leaving the service that his father, formerly the Count of the Imperial Worlds in 268, had been promoted to the rank of Duke for his work in drawing more worlds toward the Imperium, and was shortly assassinated by unknown anti-imperial forces.

Now the player was in the army himself, so chose to go the non-officer path, but managed to hit Master Chief before exiting his career. So I have this plan to maybe give the option of letting him travel to 268 (They are currently in Regina) and claim his birthright, trying to bring the Imperium to the subsector, or let him run away with possible assassins on his tail.

Or should I maybe define his father's Duchy as a subsector over in the Cannon untouched regions (Delphi and such).

So, being new to the game I wanted to ask two questions:
1.) Is this a good idea, or will it focus too much on one player?
2.) What have you done when players end up with high titles, especially Duke.

One of the options (completely ignoring "canon") is to make him not a noble in his own standing but rather a secondary children of one. He is not in line for a title unless 3-5 siblings die. He is given some "special treatment" since Daddy is important but not much. Simply ignore where he has gotten the "title" since the chargen is not written in stone, it's there to give you ideas for a bio.

To further distance him from the family take the suggestion to make him a Remitance man, that would also explain his low grade career.

 

[rancke]

You really should get hold of GT:Nobles. It has detailed information about the Imperial bureaucracy and the noble rank you need to hold each title (Only the very top ones require a duke).

And isn't canonical...

It's canonical enough for me.

A PC duke need not be "well known" and might even have just a few shares of a megacorp and a small apartment as a fief. Enough for minimum support...

A PC duke in a universe with thousands of reward dukes might not be all that well known. I mean, there might easily be at least a dozen of them in every subsector. That's still only one duke for every couple of billion inhabitants of the subsector, so I'm not sure that it would allow him to dissapear in the multitude.

Note that I really don't think the High Noble dukes would be pleased by being outnumbered ten to one or more by reward nobles, but I admit that the Emperor might be completely oblivious of the feelings of his principal helpers.



Hans

 

[epicenter00]

A PC duke in a universe with thousands of reward dukes might not be all that well known. I mean, there might easily be at least a dozen of them in every subsector. That's still only one duke for every couple of billion inhabitants of the subsector, so I'm not sure that it would allow him to dissapear in the multitude.

That's an interesting point, but I have to differ a bit.

I don't dispute the existence of reward nobles ("Holiday" nobles) since they're rooted in the OTU. However, I don't think a character should ever have a statistic that isn't directly indicative of their ability in that area. Nobody, for instance, gives a character a Strength of C but says his character is actually really weedy and weak unable to even do a single pull-up, but could have a Strength of C if he worked out every day; everyone would agree his strength should probably be like 4 or 5.

Or: What if someone had a character who was accepted into a prestigious Imperial university, known throughout the 3I. However, he was accepted into the school with the implicit understanding that he'd graduate no matter what - subsequently, he never showed up to a single class and spent all the years of his supposed education a few sectors away living a life of leisure and had his diploma mailed to him (this actually happened throughout a lot of history, and I suspect it still happens). What would his EDU be? Considering he never showed up to class once and didn't learn a thing, would it be honest of the player to use an university level EDU score for skills and checks? I think the answer from most on this board would be a resounding "No."

In this case, I think a "reward" Duke's power and position would be significantly less than that of a "real" Duke and that should be reflected in the Soc of the character; they simply lack the estates and privileges of a "real" Duke. Likewise, second sons, bastards, disgraced lines, and those written out of inheritances shouldn't be able to able to claim a high Soc score; from the other end, even if a character doesn't have an actual title, a subsector Director of a Megacorp could have a Soc equivalent to a Duke simply because, even as a commoner, his opinions and power could not be ignored by the nobility.

While there's some leeway for stats like EDU or SOC, I think both stats should represent your "effective" ability in that area.

 

[Jeffr0]

This is almost enough to make a guy switch to GURPS just for sensible Status, Rank, and Courtesy Rank rules.

 

[aramis]

It is fairly obvious to me that, except for Nobles in the Noble Career, pretty much every one else is the baseline for high soc. Honor and Reward Nobles, and family members, are the baseline. In social situations within their see, it's reasonable to give them an automatic difficulty drop... Their JOB requires their soc, but isn't their soc.

 

[Anthelios]

I've spoken with the player and a few of the other players. We're going to ignore his social for now, he's going under an assumed name and is far away from his home subsector. We're saying he was originally a member of a family, his father is a duke but he was the youngest of A LOT of children, with no reasonable chance of title other than the celebrety status afforded him. So he disappeared when he came of age, taking on the assumed name and joined the Navy as an enlisted man, to get away from it all.

He is unaware of the trouble that has befallen his family (assassination of most of it), but his SOC represents what he could attain if he were to travel back to his home subsector and survive long enough to attain power, though he lacks any skills to rule, he has the charisma to rule.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Elegant.

I've spoken with the player and a few of the other players. We're going to ignore his social for now, he's going under an assumed name and is far away from his home subsector. We're saying he was originally a member of a family, his father is a duke but he was the youngest of A LOT of children, with no reasonable chance of title other than the celebrety status afforded him. So he disappeared when he came of age, taking on the assumed name and joined the Navy as an enlisted man, to get away from it all.

He is unaware of the trouble that has befallen his family (assassination of most of it), but his SOC represents what he could attain if he were to travel back to his home subsector and survive long enough to attain power, though he lacks any skills to rule, he has the charisma to rule.

Truly an elegant solution. Nice work Ref!

 

[rancke]

Truly an elegant solution.

A workable solution. Don't get me wrong, I approve, but it's hardly elegant, as it ignores that the character actually started as SL 11 or 12 and got elevated to SL 15 during his career in the IN. But as I don't think there's any good way to explain that, I do approve of the solution.



Hans

 

[savage]

all the options

I've spoken with the player and a few of the other players. We're going to ignore his social for now, he's going under an assumed name and is far away from his home subsector. We're saying he was originally a member of a family, his father is a duke but he was the youngest of A LOT of children, with no reasonable chance of title other than the celebrety status afforded him. So he disappeared when he came of age, taking on the assumed name and joined the Navy as an enlisted man, to get away from it all.

He is unaware of the trouble that has befallen his family (assassination of most of it), but his SOC represents what he could attain if he were to travel back to his home subsector and survive long enough to attain power, though he lacks any skills to rule, he has the charisma to rule.

I'm not opposed to giving 1 player political power if the others have abilities of their own. Actually having a patron magnet in the group will increase the ability to get fine contracts. Its amusing if there is another knight trying to "be on his good side or not" or a ships captain looking for the $$$ in the relationship.


Jumping in at the end here. Seems a shame he's so far from home.
What if he was a hereditary knight that served in a military role as a support for a Duke's naval vessel. Our hero fell for wild daughter without knowing her rank. Secretly married but the father sends her away and she is killed (by pirates or something). Feeling guilt and with no other children presently the Duke looks on him as a future heir or in the line . Well this could go in many directions.

All I'm getting at is that this may be a fun tool.

 

[rancke]

What if he was a hereditary knight that served in a military role as a support for a Duke's naval vessel. Our hero fell for wild daughter without knowing her rank. Secretly married but the father sends her away and she is killed (by pirates or something). Feeling guilt and with no other children presently the Duke looks on him as a future heir or in the line . Well this could go in many directions.

Ingenious. And workable. You don't even need the last bit, since marrying a Duke's heir would surely elevate one to SL 15. But it's scarcely an explanation that can be used for all the dukes potentially produced by the charactyer generation system. Nor does it explain why no one in the Army or the Scouts ever marry a duke's heir.

This is one of the big problems I've run into when trying to argue against some of the oddities produced by various generation systems. In many cases it IS possible to come up with a few explanations for such oddities, which defenders of these systems take as vindication of their view. But it's not possible to come up with explanations for ALL the examples the systems generate.



Hans

 

[Straybow]

This is almost enough to make a guy switch to GURPS just for sensible Status, Rank, and Courtesy Rank rules.

Huh? Last I knew, Gurps status was only 5 pts/level to a maximum of 8 (described as "literally divine"). Maybe GT has a different social scale?

Note that this makes Status 8 only cost 40 pts, the same as having 1 stat at 14. I think it should be just a little more expensive and rarified than that.

 

[savage]

soc

Ingenious. And workable. You don't even need the last bit, since marrying a Duke's heir would surely elevate one to SL 15. But it's scarcely an explanation that can be used for all the dukes potentially produced by the charactyer generation system. Nor does it explain why no one in the Army or the Scouts ever marry a duke's heir.

This is one of the big problems I've run into when trying to argue against some of the oddities produced by various generation systems. In many cases it IS possible to come up with a few explanations for such oddities, which defenders of these systems take as vindication of their view. But it's not possible to come up with explanations for ALL the examples the systems generate.

Hans

Thanks and I agree. However, I run a SOC is not nobility campaign. Meaning the player has the choice to apply it to nobility or "notorious for something". Firefly Ambassadors, for example, their SOC is significant if they can black list nobles for bad behavior.

So, if it were my campaign the above option would occur only if the player wanted Duke status. Did he achieve any awards in mustering out. He could've saved a Tigress singlehandedly or an Archduke during an assassination attempt.

But if you have Balance never fear promoting a PC. An exceptional choice for the above campaign direction is the occasional intervention of the Duke father figure.

 

[mmbutter]

Huh? Last I knew, Gurps status was only 5 pts/level to a maximum of 8 (described as "literally divine"). Maybe GT has a different social scale?

Note that this makes Status 8 only cost 40 pts, the same as having 1 stat at 14. I think it should be just a little more expensive and rarified than that.

Status only buys "status" - ie, famous rock stars have high status, but do not command others like nobles do. You must also buy levels of Rank (which gives to ability to command those of lower rank / status) and levels of rank also require purchase of various duties (GM mandated, determined by setting).

Also, to maintain your status, you are required to spend money (or your status does not count in game). So, you need to buy wealth. To become a Duke in GURPS terms (status 6 / rank 8 or higher) you would need to spend 30 on status, 40+ on rank, and have like a wealth of filthy rich, 50 or better. So, that's like 120 points. Plus, you would buy various ally groups (your retainers / huscarles), patrons (your higher ups), etc. Your various "duties" and "codes of honor" would offset these (they're disadvantages) but they would require you to follow those duties and codes in game play as well.