Aslan

[Ishmael]

Why for the oldest reason of all: Power.

don't forget "keeping the status quo", which I'm sure is a large part of it. Its not about gaining power, but not allowing any shifts in power.

Let's say the entire "Aslan_are_minor_race" gets out and the population believes it, it could shift the population into an action as uncontrollable as the psionic suppressions (unlikely ).
The whole major/minor race issue seems to be Imperial propaganda anyways and other races maybe don't care except where it affects diplomatic ties and relations with other races at the Imperial Table.... no-one wants to sit at the kiddy's table on Thanksgiving.

It may come as a shock to you considering your tone, but I'm in 100% agreement with what you've said about the real reasons of the major/minor issue. Perhaps I deviated from my point, but it's the same position I've taken all along. I'm at odds though with the re-classification of Aslan's position based on a scant handful of sentences aimed only at ref's that hint at things but give no definite answers.

Frankly, I think this is the biggest strength AND biggest weakness of canon.
Biggest strength in that it does give a fair amount of leeway in certain matters that don't really effect the over-all flow of Imperium history, yet make each group's TU their own..
Biggest weakness in that the OTU is based so much on individual interpretations and thus nearly guaranteed to deviate from the official path.

Not exactly. The mass of humaniti think the Alsan are a Major Race because the mass of humaniti thinks the Aslan developed jump drive independently. The elites know that the Alsan are a Major Race because the elites know that the Aslan are powerful enough to be a Major Race.

I doubt the ordinary citizen cares any more that an American cares about tribal power-struggles in the Pashtun region of Pakistan. The ordinary Imp citizen knows the Aslan are a major race because thats what they are led to believe through propaganda and official policy.

Wrong, completely wrong. Humaniti was not uplifted, as you incorrectly wrote in another post. Some Human Minor Races were geneered, but Humans were sentient before the Ancients visited Earth. Furthermore, all three races developed civilizations either before the Ancient period, as in the case of the Dryone, or after the Ancient period, as in the case of Humaniti and the Vargr.

I used a bad choice of words... my mistake. Uplifted was not the best word to use.
My point was that there would be no human race and no minor human races were it not for the Ancient's meddling. That humans are spread so far and comprise 3 of the major polities owes the fact to the Ancients. Were humans sentient at the time of the Ancient visits around -300,000? I'm now knowledgeable enough in anthropology to be certain, but is was 285,000 years before the rise of homo sapiens ( various Trav timelines, but I think they're wrong as homo sapiens appeared about 250,000 years ago.... still after the Ancient visits though. ).
Concerning the Droyne, I point out that they were in sharp decline as Chirpers before the re-introduction of the coynes -75,000. Without Grandfather's meddling, they would have probably died out.
Concerning the Vargr, its been written in DGP's Vilani and Vargr ( no longer canon, I know ) that Grandfather keeps close tabs on them and thus some 'nudging' by Grandfather may have occurred. But that's an opinion, and not stated fact.
"Uplift" was the wrong word, but the Ancients were the cause of those Human and Vargr races' spread through the stars and the cause of the Droyne's revival ( via Grandfather ).

Wrong again. The Droyne have no power compared to the other Major Races. The case of the Dryone is the other canonical example that "reveals" the factual emptiness of the Major/Minor labeling system. In fact, the case of the Droyne suggested those labels were hollow before the Pathfinder incident was revealed.

The Droyne are a Major Race because they independently developed jump drive and not because they have any real power. When the Majors were running around blowing smoke about Majors, Minors, and the Jump Drive Reason, someone asked about the Droyne. Here was a race that lived on ~27 worlds scattered from Daibei to Tienspevnekr and had been using jump drives for longer than the Vilani. Were they a Major Race too?

The droyne were the Ancient's and therefore HAD power... a great deal of power until the Final War, where the Droyne fell out of power. They did not recover and perhaps would have become extinct were it not for the re-introduction of the coynes. The fact that 20 worlds were involved has led to speculation that they discovered j-drive by reverse engineering ancient technology; Imperials don't know about Grandfather. Because they had j-drive without the assistance of any known benefactor, it has been accepted that they invented it on their own despite there being no other evidence to support that ( MT Ref's Comp, pg 55 ).

Naturally, in order for the major/minor rule to stick, Droyne had to be admitted as a major race. In order for the major/minor rule to stick,
Gee... again we agree.

As Hans as already explained, they more far more on a in-game sense and we know far more on a meta-game sense than you believe.

I do not feel my lack of sources does not affect my interpretation. I interpreted the information that an ordinary citizen ( pc ) would have. I also feel that I've shown that some have tried to pass off their own interpretation as fact.

This does show another weakness in canon.... lack of readily available sources. Not ones gleaned from haunting ebay or collectors shops.
Apparently, only those with encyclopedic knowledge and every official printed book,adventure and supplement can truly know the OTU... That's the milieu of obsessive collectors. Few people do that any more.

Richard

 

[Whipsnade]

As far as the content of the quote, all it says is that Grandfather changed coyns over time based on his studies. No dates are given. These changes occurred between -75,000 and -1000. That's a pretty wide range of dates that any changes *could* have been made in.

Ishmael,

Not "could" have been made. "Were" made and was explicitly stated as being made.

If the -1000 date comes from SotA, then Imperial scientists would know of it only if they found an example and dated it. Presumably the Imperium has a method of dating archaeological finds*, yet the 'coyne enigma' remains ( MT Ref's Companion ), ergo, no -1000 coynes were found/identified as such.

Once again, you're confusing what we know with what they know. You're mixing meta-game descriptions with in-game knowledge.

In the setting, only a few researchers have theorized that the Droyne are somehow linked to Ancients and their theories are not widely accepted. In the setting, we have a Minor Race, the Geonee, claiming they are the Ancients and a widespread religion among the Vargr claiming that they are the Ancient's heirs. And all of this despite Twilight's Peak and the events at Antiquity.

In the setting, the Droyne are enigmatic, while also being somehow innocuous, and have limited contact with the other races around them. In the setting, the Droyne were so inscrutable that the Ziru Sirka-era Vilani didn't even realize that the Dryone were one race. In the setting, the link between the Droyne and Chirpers is only suspected and Chirpers are still persecuted, killed out of hand, and thought of as property. In the setting, the role of coyns in Droyne society is almost wholly unknown and the fact that the designs of the coyns has changed over time isn't even guessed at.

In the setting, no one knows that Yaskodray existed or still exists, despite the events of SotA. In the setting, no one knows that he took walkabouts between -7500 and -1000, saved Dryone civilization where he found it, reintroduced jump drive, or introduced coyns for casting ceremonies.

Because of all of that, in the setting, the Imperium is extremely interested in the Ancients. They use relic black globe generators after all. However, the Droyne - Ancient link is just a fringe theory and the role of coyns in Droyne society is something not even guessed at. Your assumption that the Imperium would interested coyn sets, let alone testing them to determine the dates at which they were produced, is incorrect because the Imperium doesn't know what we know.

You're fixated on the coyns because you know they are important. However, the Imperium doesn't know that and has no way of knowing that.

As for your use of Japan's Sengoku and/or Edo periods, whatever you do in your TU is your business. In the OTU however the Aslan are not samurai, no matter what you want to think, because GDW has said so. They've said the Aslan are not cats too. There are samurai-like aspects to the Aslan honor code, but that does not make them samurai nor does it mean that an Obunaga-analog or even the very idea of unification possible given Aslan culture and society.

You think the Aslan need to be or even desire to be unified? Has it occurred to you that the Aslan already think they are unified because they all already share the one thing the Aslan cherish above all else? That one thing is the Fteir, their cultural precepts, and it already unifies them in Aslan perspective.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Once again, you're confusing what we know with what they know. You're mixing meta-game descriptions with in-game knowledge.

Careful, Bill, you're beginning to shout again .

Because of all of that, in the setting, the Imperium is extremely interested in the Ancients. They use relic black globe generators after all. However, the Droyne - Ancient link is just a fringe theory and the role of coyns in Droyne society is something not even guessed at. Your assumption that the Imperium would interested coyn sets, let alone testing them to determine the dates at which they were produced, is incorrect because the Imperium doesn't know what we know.

I have to disagree a little with you there, Bill. The Imperium may not have any particular interest in coyns, but we know that there are people who collect coyns, we know that there are museums that pay for genuine coyns, and we know that there are people who counterfeit coyns, so there must be a market for them too. So I'd think dating coyns would be something people would want to do. At least the museums.

What I don't know is whether you can date pure gold. Or if you can date whatever gold alloy Grandfather uses for his coyns. Consider, any coyns Grandfather makes is quite likely to be of an unbelievable purity. There may be no radioactive isotopes at all in his gold.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

don't forget "keeping the status quo", which I'm sure is a large part of it. Its not about gaining power, but not allowing any shifts in power.

Ishmael,

The status quo was implicit in my explanation. When I wrote "The Majors can simply beat the crap out of the Minors, but they don't want to rub the Minors' noses in that fact because that would lead to hurt feelings and dangerous ideas." what did you think the phrases "hurt feelings" and "dangerous ideas" referred to if not upsets to the status quo?

I'm at odds though with the re-classification of Aslan's position based on a scant handful of sentences aimed only at ref's that hint at things but give no definite answers.

Who is suggesting the Aslan be re-classified? So, they don't qualify for Major Race status under the B.S. "Jump Drive Excuse", they still qualify, and then some, under the actual "We Can Kick Your Ass" yardstick.

Frankly, I think this is the biggest strength AND biggest weakness of canon.
Biggest strength in that it does give a fair amount of leeway in certain matters that don't really effect the over-all flow of Imperium history, yet make each group's TU their own..
Biggest weakness in that the OTU is based so much on individual interpretations and thus nearly guaranteed to deviate from the official path.

There are consensus opinions on all major canonical topics. You're forgetting the most important aspect of canon however. Canon only matters to authors, it does not matter to you. What you do in your setting is your business.

The ordinary Imp citizen knows the Aslan are a major race because thats what they are led to believe through propaganda and official policy.

Exactly, and if they chose to examine the issue they'll come to the same conclusion we have: The Aslan are a Major Race because the Aslan are powerful enough to be a Major Race. Nothing really changes.

My point was that there would be no human race and no minor human races were it not for the Ancient's meddling.

Wrong.

I'm going to explain this to you yet again. As far as Traveller is concerned, humans existed on Earth before the Ancients arrived, humans existed on Earth while the Ancients took their samples, and humans existed on Earth after the Ancients destroyed their own civilization in the Final War. Humans existed on Earth and the Ancients have nothing to do with that fact. Period.

Understand?

This fact is the core of the Solomanis' idiotic racist thinking; all of you are the result of Ancient fiddling and only we are true humans.

That humans are spread so far and comprise 3 of the major polities owes the fact to the Ancients.

That is true. The Vilani, Zhodani, and all the Human Minor Races owe their existence to the Ancients.

Were humans sentient at the time of the Ancient visits around -300,000? I'm now knowledgeable enough in anthropology to be certain, but is was 285,000 years before the rise of homo sapiens ( various Trav timelines, but I think they're wrong as homo sapiens appeared about 250,000 years ago.... still after the Ancient visits though.)

You're confusing reality with the game's history again. GDW has repeatedly stated that Homo sapiens were extent when the Ancients visited Earth 300,000 years ago. That was the number GDW pulled out of their hat in 1977. It doesn't matter what real world anthropology says, because Traveller says something different for it's own history.

Concerning the Vargr, its been written in DGP's Vilani and Vargr ( no longer canon, I know ) that Grandfather keeps close tabs on them and thus some 'nudging' by Grandfather may have occurred. But that's an opinion, and not stated fact.

That's neither an opinion or a fact. It's just plain wrong.

Yaskodray did leave an android behind to watch the Vargr, and created a pocket universe within the Lair system for that android to use as a base too, but, after setting up this surveillance, Yaskodray left and never returned. V&V explicitly states that the android send periodic reports to Yaskodray and has never received a response in return.

I do not feel my lack of sources does not affect my interpretation. I interpreted the information that an ordinary citizen ( pc ) would have.

Again, your interpretation doesn't matter. Whatever you do in your TU is your own concern. It's only when you state that "This occured in the OTU" or "This is how it works in the OTU" that the problems begin.

This does show another weakness in canon.... lack of readily available sources. Not ones gleaned from haunting ebay or collectors shops.

All those sources are available on CD-ROM at FFE's website and have been available for years.

Apparently, only those with encyclopedic knowledge and every official printed book,adventure and supplement can truly know the OTU... That's the milieu of obsessive collectors. Few people do that any more.

And nor should they. Canon only matters to authors. That's why you see us repeatedly write statements like "In my Traveller Universe... or In my game.... We're talking about what we do and not what the OTU is.

It's only when you begin make claims about the OTU that canon begins to matter.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Let's say the entire "Aslan_are_minor_race" gets out and the population believes it, it could shift the population into an action as uncontrollable as the psionic suppressions (unlikely ).

Why would most people give a toss either way? Some would, sure, but how many? Those who like Aslans would refuse to believe it and those who dislike Aslans would embrace the notion, but how many would that be? Most people in the Imperium wouldn't even have met an Aslan.

The whole major/minor race issue seems to be Imperial propaganda anyways and other races maybe don't care except where it affects diplomatic ties and relations with other races at the Imperial Table.... no-one wants to sit at the kiddy's table on Thanksgiving.

I see it more as one of those things "everybody knows".

Frankly, I think this is the biggest strength AND biggest weakness of canon.
Biggest strength in that it does give a fair amount of leeway in certain matters that don't really effect the over-all flow of Imperium history, yet make each group's TU their own..

This is not a strength, because it only works as long as no new material is ever written and published. The moment a Traveller author needs to settle a question one way or another in order to make a plot work or a background writeup interesting, another bit of vague canon gets nailed down.

Biggest weakness in that the OTU is based so much on individual interpretations and thus nearly guaranteed to deviate from the official path.

Which is only a weakness if people somehow convince themselves that their TU absolutely MUST resemble the OTU down to the last detail. And I, for one, think that's a very silly notion that should be debunked at every opportunity.

I doubt the ordinary citizen cares any more that an American cares about tribal power-struggles in the Pashtun region of Pakistan. The ordinary Imp citizen knows the Aslan are a major race because thats what they are led to believe through propaganda and official policy.

More likely because their astrography teacher told them what his astrography teacher told him.

My point was that there would be no human race and no minor human races were it not for the Ancient's meddling. That humans are spread so far and comprise 3 of the major polities owes the fact to the Ancients. Were humans sentient at the time of the Ancient visits around -300,000? I'm now knowledgeable enough in anthropology to be certain, but is was 285,000 years before the rise of homo sapiens ( various Trav timelines, but I think they're wrong as homo sapiens appeared about 250,000 years ago.... still after the Ancient visits though.

No, they're not wrong in the Traveller universe. It may or may not be wrong in the Real Universe (opinions differ), but it's not wrong in the Traveller universe. The common ancestor of the Solomani, the Vilani, the Zhodani, the Darrians, and an indeterminate number of other human subspecies, was already Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens antiquus to be precise). If he hadn't been, his long-separated descendents wouldn't be interfertile.

The Droyne were the Ancient's and therefore HAD power... a great deal of power until the Final War, where the Droyne fell out of power.

No, the Ancients were an offshoot of the Droyne. None of the Droyne are descended from the Ancients. The Droyne were just as much slaves of the Ancients as Humans and Vargr were.

This does show another weakness in canon.... lack of readily available sources. Not ones gleaned from haunting ebay or collectors shops.
Apparently, only those with encyclopedic knowledge and every official printed book,adventure and supplement can truly know the OTU... That's the milieu of obsessive collectors. Few people do that any more.

It is, indeed, a problem. However, the Internet is providing us with the tools to remedy, or at least alleviate, the problem.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

my last post on this subject , I promise.

Not "could" have been made. "Were" made and was explicitly stated as being made.

sigh
you're missing my entire point.
I obviously cannot dispute the quote from SotA. However, I can dispute the timing in which these changes were made. I feel that they could have been made at any time within that period for reasons I've already stated concerning dating, the 'enigma' blah blah blah. Not that they were made only after Grandfather looked and said "Hey..woah!...they invented jump drive!". I feel that any assumption based on the interpretation that Aslan were added only after they had j-drive is just that... an interpretation. I am fully aware that this matter is purely a ref matter and not "in-game". I also feel that passing such an interpretation off as written-in-stone canon fact is misleading..... much like the sloppy science idea.

You're fixated on the coyns because you know they are important. However, the Imperium doesn't know that and has no way of knowing that.

Actually I'm fixated on the coynes for 2 reasons;
1. they are have been used as a measure of whether a race is major ( only major races are on coynes ) and I decided to add the part I know which appears to "in-game" and was immediately rebutted with ref-only info... and I like to argue.
2. I feel , obviously, that if the Aslan were added to the changed sets on an assigned a date ( last walkabout? -1000 ) despite no date being given ( so far ), then that is misleading. And I feel that if Imperial scientists are too daft to catch on about the changes on differently dated sets despite high-tech dating methods. .. ( a harmless assumption on my part that tech 15 archaeologists would have hi-tech methods at their disposal ) then that is simply explaining a favored interpretation .

As I said I like to argue and its obvious that I'm not the only one.
Its also given my an opportunity to state clearly, with clear examples ( hopefully ) why canon is weak.

As for your use of Japan's Sengoku and/or Edo periods, whatever you do in your TU is your business. In the OTU however the Aslan are not samurai, no matter what you want to think, because GDW has said so. They've said the Aslan are not cats too. There are samurai-like aspects to the Aslan honor code, but that does not make them samurai nor does it mean that an Obunaga-analog or even the very idea of unification possible given Aslan culture and society.

You think the Aslan need to be or even desire to be unified? Has it occurred to you that the Aslan already think they are unified because they all already share the one thing the Aslan cherish above all else? That one thing is the Fteir, their cultural precepts, and it already unifies them in Aslan perspective.

Obviously its not OTU...duh! The OTU is dull compared to what it could be!

I was offering up a suggestion in response to the initial post.
As far as the entire Nobunaga idea of unification, consider that all those clans knew and were proud that they were Japanese ( like Aslan consider Fteir ) yet they fought constantly among the clans ( like Aslan ) over lands and influence ( like Aslan ) and used wars of assassins, etc.etc.etc.
YET Nobunaga felt the need to unify Japan ( and was forced to commit seppukku before seeing it happen ) and when he fell Hideyoshi took over.
I'm sure there were a clan or two that didn't want to be unified

It is a suggestion that would spice up the otherwise drab Aslan race with a ready made background that fits what has been written about them before... take it or leave it
But stop getting all defensive about it as canon. I never said it should be.
Canon, imho, would drag it down like an albatross+rope+neck

Richard

I'm done with the whole coyns thing now...time to move on.
no opinions will be changed and it'd be a waste to continue.

An alternate take on Aslan, sure

Of course I'd love to continue to discuss things, but it'd best be done on another thread, eh?

 

[Ishmael]

No, they're not wrong in the Traveller universe. It may or may not be wrong in the Real Universe (opinions differ), but it's not wrong in the Traveller universe. The common ancestor of the Solomani, the Vilani, the Zhodani, the Darrians, and an indeterminate number of other human subspecies, was already Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens antiquus to be precise). If he hadn't been, his long-separated descendents wouldn't be interfertile.

It would have caused less confusion if they had used the name "Homo heidelbergensis" instead of homo sapiens

my mistake

 

[Whipsnade]

Careful, Bill, you're beginning to shout again .

Hans,

Yeah, I know.

I have to disagree a little with you there, Bill. The Imperium may not have any particular interest in coyns...

And that's all I was talking about. The collectors, forgers, and museums don't really enter into it.

Ishmael is suggesting that there's some Imperial project frisking about dating coyns and trying to determine when certain designs were introduced so that they can determine when Yaskodray decided that the Aslan were a Major Race. I saying that, not only is there no interest in that question at any level, that the question itself isn't even guessed at.

The "Imperium" knows that the Droyne communities produce and use coyns for whatever cultural reasons. The "Imperium" knows that some Chirper communities own coyns too. What the "Imperium" doesn't know is that Yaskodray invented the coyns, chose what symbols should be on them, and taught the Droyne how to use them to caste. The "Imperium" can't even guess at that, so Ishmael's Aslan/Major/Yaskodray coyn dating project is impossible. There's just no reason for it because no one even suspects that such data would be useful.

So I'd think dating coyns would be something people would want to do. At least the museums.

Dating, if possible, would be important for both collectors and museums. Both need neat cards in their display cases stating "Gold Coin, Chirper, Northern Continent, Vanejen, circa -1500

What I don't know is whether you can date pure gold.

It does oxidize somewhat, albeit so slowly it's called a noble metal. However, who knows what TL15 science can do? Also, are coyns pure gold? Pure gold too soft with which to form lasting objects.

Or if you can date whatever gold alloy Grandfather uses for his coyns. Consider, any coyns Grandfather makes is quite likely to be of an unbelievable purity. There may be no radioactive isotopes at all in his gold.

Would Yaskodray have made every set? I'd think he would have made a few sets with which to teach the casting ceremony and the Droyne would have actually made the vast majority of coyns. Updating the symbols wouldn't require new sets either, Yaskodray would just imprint the new designs into the minds of whichever Droyne he contacted.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

It would have caused less confusion if they had used the name "Homo heidelbergensis" instead of homo sapiens.

I don't see why. I think it makes perfect sense to label the common ancestor of several dozen subspecies of Homo sapiens an ancestral version of Homo sapiens. Giving it another species name would have been confusing.

Incidentally, they didn't call the Ancient-era humans anything. They just said that the Zhodani, the Vilani, and the Darrians were all Homo sapiens. From there it's a logical deduction that their last common ancestor must aslo have been Homo sap.


Hans

 

[rancke]

[Gold] does oxidize somewhat, albeit so slowly it's called a noble metal. However, who knows what TL15 science can do? Also, are coyns pure gold? Pure gold too soft with which to form lasting objects.

"...the coin is solid soft gold..." [RSG:4]​

However, who knows what TL35 science can do? Grandfather may have used a special, more durable, alloy of his own devising.

Would Yaskodray have made every set? I'd think he would have made a few sets with which to teach the casting ceremony and the Droyne would have actually made the vast majority of coyns. Updating the symbols wouldn't require new sets either, Yaskodray would just imprint the new designs into the minds of whichever Droyne he contacted.

He would have made (or directed the manufacture of) every coyn he gave out. And I don't care how much the Chirpers revered his gifts, I don't think every coyn they received in -75,000 would still be around in 1100. Yet each of the Chirper villages on Vanejen has "...perhaps five sets of the coins, each set amounting to 38 coins, each with a different design..." [RSG:38]

Actually... it's also pretty unlikely that they'd keep all the sets intact for 2000 years...

And I just now realized that the Vanejen coyn sets have 38 different coyns, which means the Droyne sets with its 36 coyns are different from the ones Yaskoydray handed out. I've built up a beautiful edifice on the assumption the the 38 coyns were the set used by the Ancients and that the Droyne used a 36 coyn set because that's what the Big Y gave them back in -75,000 (And revised a number of times since).

?=)(/&%¤#"! (Pardon my French).


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Actually I'm fixated on the coynes for 2 reasons;

Ishmael,

Coyns, but go ahead.

1. they are have been used as a measure of whether a race is major ( only major races are on coynes ) and I decided to add the part I know which appears to "in-game" and was immediately rebutted with ref-only info... and I like to argue.

They've been used as an excuse, just like jump drive. We know the real yardstick used to determine which races are Major Races and thoughtful people in the setting know about that real yardstick too.

You're fixated on this Coyn/Major Race link when thoughtful people within and without the setting know that such a link is nonsense.

2. I feel , obviously, that if the Aslan were added to the changed sets on an assigned a date ( last walkabout? -1000 ) despite no date being given ( so far ), then that is misleading. And I feel that if Imperial scientists are too daft to catch on about the changes on differently dated sets despite high-tech dating methods. .. ( a harmless assumption on my part that tech 15 archaeologists would have hi-tech methods at their disposal ) then that is simply explaining a favored interpretation .

Who says they don't know coyn design changed? I'm certain they do know coyn design changed and I'm also certain they don't know WHY coyn design changed.

You're assuming that, simply because a design change occurs and can be dated to a certain period, the Imperium will immediately clap a hand to it's forehead shout "Eureka!" and being hunting for Yaskodray. I'm suggesting that Imperial scholars will note a change in coyn designs, date it to roughly -1000, and say "This is when the Droyne became aware of the Aslan".

Thos are two very different conclusions and only the latter fits the setting.

As I said I like to argue and its obvious that I'm not the only one.

True.

Its also given my an opportunity to state clearly, with clear examples ( hopefully ) why canon is weak.

I wouldn't use the term "clearly" and, while canon is weak in some subjects, it's your grasp of canon and it's implications in this subject that is weak.

As far as the entire Nobunaga idea of unification, consider that...

Why don't you consider that all that happened in Japan over a few centuries while nothing resembling that has happened among the Aslan throughout their entire history? The Aslan have thousands of years of history on their home world and thousands of years of history off their home world and not one single Nobunaga-analog ever showed up. Why should it happen now in the OTU?

Go ahead and write it up for YTU and post it to the File Library. I'm sure many people will find it very useful for their TUs.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

Hans:

Perhaps it is a 36 coyne set with two replacements from the old set. (I'm too lazy to go dig out RSG right now.)

IE: Coyne Aslan and Coyne K'Kree plus the two they replaced.

 

[Ishmael]

Why don't you consider that all that happened in Japan over a few centuries while nothing resembling that has happened among the Aslan throughout their entire history? The Aslan have thousands of years of history on their home world and thousands of years of history off their home world and not one single Nobunaga-analog ever showed up. Why should it happen now in the OTU?

Very little has happened in that 1000's of years of history that has been published with the greatest part being the DGP stuff. Perhaps it might be a nice exercise to compare the events listed in that book with Japanese history. If you have suggestions for other sources that are readily available, I'd like to use them as well ( except that I have no interest in purchasing more books or rarer books full of material I probably won't use after this project. )

Actually, that the Aslan have thousands of years of history crammed into a few scant pages makes it highly unlikely that specific events will be mentioned. Broad strokes are given more words. And there is a good chance that events similar to those of Japanese history occurred over the course of thousands of years of the Aslan, but where too small to be mentioned in detail.

About a Nobunaga-analog...
Maybe there was, but unsuccessful?
or if not, then think how much more fun it might be if one did show up to close the rift between the factions that oppose each other concerning how to respond to the Imperium's Rebellion. That'd certainly be more exciting than 'business as usual'.

I guess the first step is to create an Aslan timeline that covers events in Aslan history as mentioned in the sources I own and check it against timelines on the 'net. Because I'm going to focus on actions of individual clans first, I doubt there would be much in common.

As I'll be taking the initial info from the OTU, I'd appreciate corrections to any mistakes I make along with references to those works.

I have no illusions that this is nothing more than an ATU effort.
This should prove interesting and closer to the thread's original purpose.

Richard

 

[Whipsnade]

And there is a good chance that events similar to those of Japanese history occurred over the course of thousands of years of the Aslan, but where too small to be mentioned in detail.

Ishmael,

The actions of a Nobunaga-analog who was the first to unify the Aslan race is somehow "too small" to be mentioned? Sure, lots of things have been left out of Aslan history, but do you really think such an event would not have been mentioned or that such an event wouldn't have reverberations down into the Classical Era?

I have no illusions that this is nothing more than an ATU effort. This should prove interesting and closer to the thread's original purpose.

As an ATU it is laudable.

As for the OTU, GDW and other authors have repeatedly shown over the last thirty years that quite interesting stories can be spun out of OTU history without also destroying it. All the pieces are already there, nothing needs to be added or removed. All it takes is a different perspective, a different spin, to arrange the canonical parts into new and interesting patterns.


Regards,
Bill

 

[zonk]

It's interesting watching canon fly to and fro!

Now I've mostly followed this but there are a couple that I need explained

Whipsnade

events at Antiquity.

what events? What is Antiquity?

Rancke

"...the coin is solid soft gold..." [RSG:4]

RSG:4?

In another thread I was wracking my brain over SOM when the clue was right in front of me all the time. I'm sure these will be too but... could you help me with this? o:

 

[Whipsnade]

Whipsnade what events? What is Antiquity?

Zonk,

I was referring to the other working Ancient base.

Twilight's Peak featured the players stumbling across an Ancient base beneath one of the Octagon Society's shelters in Fulacin. After encountering the revived Ancient warrior there, it should be clear in the players' minds that the Droyne and Ancients are linked. (Whether the players will be believed is another question.)

Antiquity is another known Ancient site in the Corridor Sector. It's so well know and so picked over that it's been turned into a tourist attraction. In one of DGP's Four Knights[i/] adventures, the visiting heroes suddenly find themselves in a working Ancient base with all sorts of In-Your-Face indications of the Dryone - Ancients link and some rather troubling findings from the perspective of the Vargr. (While rather "railroady", I think this adventure is one of DGP's best.)

Rancke RSG:4?

Research Station Gamma, page 4, "Perhaps the adventurer will agree; the coin is soft gold, always a valuable commodity."


Regards,
Bill

 

[Ishmael]

The actions of a Nobunaga-analog who was the first to unify the Aslan race is somehow "too small" to be mentioned? Sure, lots of things have been left out of Aslan history, but do you really think such an event would not have been mentioned or that such an event wouldn't have reverberations down into the Classical Era?

As for the OTU, GDW and other authors have repeatedly shown over the last thirty years that quite interesting stories can be spun out of OTU history without also destroying it. All the pieces are already there, nothing needs to be added or removed. All it takes is a different perspective, a different spin, to arrange the canonical parts into new and interesting patterns.

You had last intimated that there is nothing of the real historical period that ever occurred in the thousands of years of Aslan history. Given the prevalence of clans and clan warfare over thousands of worlds, all of it occurred at some point or another, in some form. And because the OTU histories for the Aslan only seem to cover the broadest of events, most events on the scale of 1300's Japan would not be mentioned.

If you had read my first proposal of a Nobunaga-like story-line, I mentioned that I thought it might be fun to have it ( or a serious attempt ) to bring the 29 under a single Emperor and clan. Even if that idea falls through completely, there are lots of good stories and interesting info that would still be nice in the setting ( the 47 ronin, and Yamamoto's thoughts and reason for condemning the actions taken by them.... )

Good stories can be had in the OTU... if that's your taste. The OTU is not my taste, but the reasons should be left for another time and thread if discussed at all..
Even as 30 years of stories have been written in the OTU, writers have proven over the past centuries that good stories may be had in any setting. Good stories come from good characters, not good backdrops.

Am I destroying the OTU?.. no
I can't do that unless I am able to publish officially and that's something I have no desire for.... this is a hobby, nothing else, and not the only one I pursue.
But I can fight against the blandness of a monotone civilization that's the same on this border as it is on that border a huge distance away where everyone acts the same.... for centuries.
If nothing else, I'm finding fodder for my own stories in my own ATU.

Richard

 

[rancke]

Rancke RSG:4?

In another thread I was wracking my brain over SOM when the clue was right in front of me all the time. I'm sure these will be too but... could you help me with this? o:

Research Station Gamma, p. 4.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

You had last intimated that there is nothing of the real historical period that ever occurred in the thousands of years of Aslan history. Given the prevalence of clans and clan warfare over thousands of worlds, all of it occurred at some point or another, in some form. And because the OTU histories for the Aslan only seem to cover the broadest of events, most events on the scale of 1300's Japan would not be mentioned.

Ishmael,

A Nobunaga-analog, whether they succeeded or not, is simply too big and event to ignore. We have the name of the female who negotiated the temporary alliance between the Yerlyaruiwo and the Khaukheairl in order to exploit the drives found aboard Pathfinder but we've no mention whatsoever of an attempt to unify the Aslan or the male who attempted it? Does that seem plausible to you?

As I've pointed out before, you're approaching the Aslan from a human perspective while also claiming the depictions Aslan in canon are stale. How will making the Aslan behave more like humans make them any less stale? I've already suggested that you look at the issue through Aslan eyes; as far as the Aslan are concerned, they are already unified in the only manner that matters, the Fteir.

Why should they covet political unity like humans do? They aren't human.


Regards,
Bill

 

[zonk]

Thanks Bill, Hans

Or is that too informal? :devil:

not being on a first name basis with you

Ah, Traveller's Digest #3 Feature Adventure: Visit to Antiquity p5 according to Traveller wiki. Shame, not one I have. Of course I don't have many TDs so that's not like an unlikely happening.

RSG I have. I'll hafta go look it up to stay current in the canon battle