Aslan

[rancke]

Hans, don't forget that the definition of "Major Race" is not how much territory comprises their empire but "a race that discovered Jump Drive on it's own without outside influence".

I know. That's what I was referring to with the phrase 'the commonly accepted definition'.

But the point is that it should be. None of the definitions of the adjective 'major' refers to 'first on the scene', except, arguably, by a considerable stretch of the imagination. Whereas most of the connotations do seem to fit with how much territory a race controls: "greater in dignity, rank, importance, or interest; greater in number, quantity, or extent; notable or conspicuous in effect or scope; prominent or significant in size, amount, or degree".

So how can anyone seriously propose that a race which controls a dozen sectors isn't major?

The commonly accepted definition has worked so far because it defines a group that has a very strong correlation with the group of major races, namely a group of races that (mostly) didn't have another race that already controlled the jump drive nearby to impede their initial expansion. Even so, there are discrepancies. How can anyone say that the Droyne are major and the Bwaps aren't? And while the Solomani did invent the jump drive on their own, they started out in exactly the same position as any minor race that got the jump drive from someone who already dominated half the space around them. The Solomani just beat the odds against them. As did the Aslan.


Hans

 

[Ran Targas]

Wouldn't a better measure of a major species be one that rules itself without foreign interference? If your species is subject to another, particularly if your homeworld is controlled by a foreign polity (3I, Hiver Fed, etc.), how could you be considered a major race?

Maybe some minor races would gain major race status but I don't think any of the major races would lose status except maybe the Droyne. Special dispensation for their heritage could be used to keep them in the major league or, if you like, they could allowed to lose their status as they lost their empire.

 

[rancke]

In that case, I'd have to argue that it's the prevailing view within the Imperium as opposed to secret knowledge that only the pc's who experienced SotA would know.

Yes it is.

As the view of those who set the "major" races, the coyns enigma reinforces the idea that Aslan are a major race to the group that applies that label.

Yes, it does.

As far as the detail that Grandfather's last walkabout was -1000 means little unless it also stated that Aslan were not on the coyns until afterwards.

It means that there is a simple answer to the question of how come the Aslan, K'Kree, and Hivers are on the coyns that does not involve precognition or time travel. I'll take that any day.

It's a bit difficult to think that no earlier coyns were ever found given that archaeologists 'know' they appeared around -75000. How did they figure that out if they never found older coyns? Droyne history as told by the Droyne?

They found older coyns. They found coyns that dates back to the Ancient Era, 300,000 years ago. And some of those coyn sets are different from the modern sets. Some of them have as many as 38 different coyns. Some of them are incomplete.

"...[Grandfather] instituted the system of coyns [...] He continued to refine these coyns in light of what he found in his studies; over time, they came to show various races (Aslan, Hiver, K'kree) which did not even exist when Droyne ranged the stars."

Do you think any conspiracy afficionado would let the fact that none of the ancient and 'medieval' coyn sets had any Aslan, K'kree, or Hiver coyns prevent him from conflating them with modern sets that do? I sure don't.

If it is stated thus and if a handful of people know the truth, it would probably be suppressed if it might have a perceived negative impact on relations or trade.

Someone who'd like to deal with the Aslan would probably be well adviced to keep any controversial beliefs to himself, but I can't see any reason why most sophonts of Charted Space would care enough about Aslan feelings to suppress the news. And indeed, the adventure itself and various subsesquently published material has mentioned that the story has been published and spread.

Why would the ancients meddle with 3 of the major races ( humans, droyne, and vargr ) and leave the others ( Aslan, Hivers, and K'kree ) alone?

Why not? The Droyne (at least, the branch of the Droyne that didn't evolve into Ancients) aren't really a major race, Humans are three major races and 46 minor ones because the Ancients gave them over a hundred times the odds that any of the other races had by spreading them to over a hundred worlds, and the Vargr simply got lucky.



Hans

 

[robject]

S4,

I'm not questioning that. I agree completely that the Pathfinder story is canon. What's more I very much like it because it's another of those "wheels within wheels" twists that makes the OTU so interesting.

What I'm questioning is DGP's assertion that GDW had the "Not Really A Major Race" story in mind when they first created the Aslan way back in 1979/80. I think it was a later addition, a very good addition, but a later one.

Maybe along the same lines as the Ancients, the Droyne, and Yaskoydray revelations. And MT's "The Real Strephon" evolution.

 

[Max]

Wouldn't a better measure of a major species be one that rules itself without foreign interference? If your species is subject to another, particularly if your homeworld is controlled by a foreign polity (3I, Hiver Fed, etc.), how could you be considered a major race?

But if that is the measure than Humaniti & kKKree aren't major races since the Hivers ... oh we've not supposed to talk about that, forget I said anything.

 

[Ishmael]

How do they know the age of coyns? How do you think archaeologists know the age of anything?

Exactly my point. Coyns from that period are known. Only a tiny few are privy to the SotA's revelation that Grandfather does 'walkabouts'..
There should be direct evidence as to whether Aslan or any other races were on them. Given that the prevailing thought considers it an enigma that Aslan and the other 5 major races were on coyns even when they and other races weren't civilised at that time, it can be argued that unless it is specifically stated in a direct fashion, all 6 races were on coyns of that period, otherwise there would be no 'coyne enigma'.

You also need to remember that coyn sets aren't found laying around. They're vitally important to Dryone culture, truly important when we realize what happens to Droyne that can't or don't caste. Discarded coyn sets aren't to be found in Droyne midden heaps and the owners of sets that aren't in Droyne hands really don't want their provenance looked into.

rare, sure... but not as rare as you might think.
Vilani merchant's have a custom of bolting gold coyns under the jump drive's floor bolts.
Although there are certainly fakes in use, there had to be enough coyns floating around for that practice to be commonly known instead of a once in a million quirk of a rich captain.

Most likely, but it's more of a public relations issue. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the upper echelons of Imperial society and government most definitely know about the Pathfinder and know that the Major/Minor labels are nonsense on their face, they just don't want any public upheavals over those facts.

If the upper echelons know of the Pathfinder story and consider the entire major/minor labels nonsense, then why do the perpetuate them? If they wish to prevent public upheavals, then it can be assumed that the journalist's story would be suppressed; perhaps if widely published, it might be cast in the same light as sensationalist conspiracy theory much as Area 51 stories lest it be taken too seriously and believed by the common man. In any case, these upper echelons fully support the idea that Aslan are a major race, so the common Imperial citizen believes it. As far as the greater mass of Imperial humanity is concerned, Aslan are a major race.... the upper crust agree ( even if they know better )

Timing. Humans, Droyne, and Vargr were around when the Ancients were active. Humans and Vargr were Ancient experimental subjects and client races while the Droyne were the Ancients. The other races you list were had not developed even rudimentary civilizations yet and, in the case of the Hivers and K'Kree, were relatively distant from Ancient's stomping grounds.

Humans, Droyne, and Vargr exist because of Ancient manipulations. And like the other races I mentioned, except for the ancient Droyne, none of them had developed even rudimentary civilizations on their own yet. The Droyne had power, but lost it in the final war and only recovered a bit because of Grandfather's meddling.
As far as the Ancient's range, we know little except that Earth was in it ( Zhodane too, which shows at least some of the range they covered ). To assume that the Ancient's stomping grounds were limited may be incorrect. There is too little information concerning Ancient sites outside the Imperium. Given that the Ancient's war destroyed worlds ( a source of asteroid belts iirc ) then the remaining known sites may represent relatively untouched backwaters or the area belonging to the winners of that war.

I'm admitting that I lack sources here
however...
The bit about the upper echelon knowing all about the truth yet don't want any potential problems based on those facts argues very strongly that the Aslan are a major race because the civilization that uses such labels allows its population to believe that the Aslan are a major race.
Everything else is just fluff for conspiracy theorists.

 

[rancke]

There should be direct evidence as to whether Aslan or any other races were on them. Given that the prevailing thought considers it an enigma that Aslan and the other 5 major races were on coyns even when they and other races weren't civilised at that time, it can be argued that unless it is specifically stated in a direct fashion, all 6 races were on coyns of that period, otherwise there would be no 'coyne enigma'.

You find some coyns with various motives, Aslans not among them, and date them to -75,000 (Say, by the ruins you find them in). You find some other coyns of the exact same style with an Aslan on them. Can you carbon-date gold? If you can't (I'm genuinely ignorant about this), you won't know that they are only 2000 years old. If you can, you know that this one is only 2000 years old, but wouldn't you conclude that they must be copies of coyns that are contemporary with the ones that you know are 75,000 years old?

And if you're a sloppy scientist (they do exist, you know) or a conspiracy nut, might you not jump to conclusions and simply ignore any evidence that would spoil a good enigma?

Vilani merchant's have a custom of bolting gold coyns under the jump drive's floor bolts.

I'm fairly sure that's Droyne merchants. It's from SoM, right? In any case, I don't think the text says the coyns have to be 75,000 year old ones. Contemporary coyns shouldn't be impossible to procure, not even for a Vilani. Replicas would be even easier to get.

Although there are certainly fakes in use, there had to be enough coyns floating around for that practice to be commonly known instead of a once in a million quirk of a rich captain.

Museum acquires a selection of genuine coyns. Museum makes replicas to sell in their gift shop.

If the upper echelons know of the Pathfinder story and consider the entire major/minor labels nonsense, then why do the perpetuate them?

Who says they do? I think they merely refrain from giving credence to this rather wild story that journalist what's-his-name came up with. Who says his evidence is genuine, anyway?

In any case, these upper echelons fully support the idea that Aslan are a major race, so the common Imperial citizen believes it. As far as the greater mass of Imperial humanity is concerned, Aslan are a major race.... the upper crust agree ( even if they know better )

The mass of humanity believing in some common misconception despite evidence to the contrary. We've never heard of any examples of that in real life, have we?

Humans, Droyne, and Vargr exist because of Ancient manipulations. And like the other races I mentioned, except for the ancient Droyne, none of them had developed even rudimentary civilizations on their own yet. The Droyne had power, but lost it in the final war and only recovered a bit because of Grandfather's meddling.

There's no proof that any of the major races were on the 'medieval' coyn set (Though that the Droyne were there is a safe bet, and with humans spread to over a hundred worlds there would be nothing strange about them being there too. The Vargr are more unlikely, albeit possible). The best evidence for Humans on the 'medieval' set is the coyn the Chirper in RSG pays the adventurers with. But that could just as easily be from a set of coyns left with the village by Grandfather in -1000 as in -75,000. A bit more likely, even, that the Chirpers had managed to preserve those coyns for 2000 years than for 75,000 years.

As far as the Ancient's range, we know little except that Earth was in it ( Zhodane too, which shows at least some of the range they covered ).

The minor human races in the Hiver Federation are all located on its spinward edge [Hivers, p. 13], giving us the trailing edge of Ancient activity. I don't think there is a similar spinward edge mentioned in CT sources, but GT:Humaniti states that "The homeworlds of over 90% of these transplanted populations, surviving and extinct, lie in and area stretching from Spica sector to trailing to Eiaplial sector to spinward."


Hans

 

[jfetters]

I think it says no one knows where the name comes from, but I could be wrong. But then, it still could be said somewhere that that's where it came from.

Back to the name origin issue for a moment - I always inferred due to the sector names (Magyar, for example) that the Spinward/Rimward areas from Terra had a significant Turkish cultural feel to them. I don't know if that is covered anywhere in canon or not, but that was the conclusion that I took from the information provided.

I had always assumed there was a Narnia connection as well, but then someone corrected me on the Turkish origin of the name and then some of the other bits fell into place.

But who knows? It could be one aspect leading the other when it comes to OTU development.

 

[Madarin Dude]

Well just to inform you Maygar means Hungarian in Hungarian. Which would lead to Finno Urgic roots although the origin is in question. (tried to sort out the origin myself and it was inconclusive) That does not mean there are no Turkish roots though. Just some more fuel.

 

[fiat_knox]

Back to the name origin issue for a moment - I always inferred due to the sector names (Magyar, for example) that the Spinward/Rimward areas from Terra had a significant Turkish cultural feel to them. I don't know if that is covered anywhere in canon or not, but that was the conclusion that I took from the information provided.

I had always assumed there was a Narnia connection as well, but then someone corrected me on the Turkish origin of the name and then some of the other bits fell into place.

But who knows? It could be one aspect leading the other when it comes to OTU development.

Well just to inform you Maygar means Hungarian in Hungarian. Which would lead to Finno Urgic roots although the origin is in question. (tried to sort out the origin myself and it was inconclusive) That does not mean there are no Turkish roots though. Just some more fuel.

That explains the prevalence of kebab shops throughout the Spinward Marches ...

 

[Ishmael]

And if you're a sloppy scientist (they do exist, you know) or a conspiracy nut, might you not jump to conclusions and simply ignore any evidence that would spoil a good enigma?

I would tend to think that saying the enigma is a matter of sloppy science or conspiracy nuts is off the mark. The study of Ancients has had the strong support of the Imperium and as such, probably has the best and brightest working on it. I can imagine the competitiveness in making new discoveries. In such a research enviroment, the weak theories are weeded out mercilessly.

I also decided to try google on what has been written on the matter. Here is what you wrote about it in the past :

" There's no reason to assume he did. While he did introduce the coyns in c. -75,000 (as aids to casting -- they were known back in Ancient times), Secret of the Ancients mentions that he came back from time to time and revised them. No specific revisions are mentioned, but since his last visit to our universe was around -1000 (also per SotA), he could have added the Aslans at that time. "

While your position is possible, its not stated as a matter of fact that the Aslans were a revision. Barring 'sloppy science', the fact that the enigma exists offers the possibility that they were not part of a revision. Unless a later source is definitive, then the 'enigma' is a loose end for refs and players to play with and could go either way.

I'm fairly sure that's Droyne merchants. It's from SoM, right? In any case, I don't think the text says the coyns have to be 75,000 year old ones. Contemporary coyns shouldn't be impossible to procure, not even for a Vilani. Replicas would be even easier to get.

nope...Vilani merchants as well. I recall it from a published adventure or supplement, but cannot verify that directly, so I had to look it up in SOM. ( its a sidebar bit of color, but it does say Vilani merchants as well... something about superstitions akin to dimming the lights )

Who says they do? I think they merely refrain from giving credence to this rather wild story that journalist what's-his-name came up with. Who says his evidence is genuine, anyway?

I have no source so I have to take other's word for it. Here is what someone else said....

..... As has been pointed out repeatedly, the upper echelons of Imperial society and government most definitely know about the Pathfinder and know that the Major/Minor labels are nonsense on their face, they just don't want any public upheavals over those facts.......

Hivers[/i], p. 13], giving us the trailing edge of Ancient activity. I don't think there is a similar spinward edge mentioned in CT sources, but GT:Humaniti states that "The homeworlds of over 90% of these transplanted populations, surviving and extinct, lie in and area stretching from Spica sector to trailing to Eiaplial sector to spinward."

Which only shows the range of surviving human races or simply the range which the Ancients chose to spread humanity. Humans weren't the only race uplifted; Vargr enjoy a huge range. They may or may not have been others.

In the end, there are too many loose ends for absolute knowledge here.
Even precognition by Grandfather is not ruled out; the droyne believe the coynes can foresee the future and thus consult them in a variety of matters.... its said they are surprisingly accurate. If Grandfather could create an artifact that could do that, then he himself must be able to do that.

I actually feel its better that there are loopholes...

 

[kafka47]

Back to the essence of the question. For me, the Aslan change over time, there are periods in which they resemble Samurai with a titular Emperor and all (in fact, it continues IMTU as the Glorious Empire**). But, in the current time, circa 1105, the Aslan resemble the Warlord period (1916-1928) in China. Alliances between the clans are unstable and frought with forces from within and without that seek to subjegate them. The Grand Council does little but keep the overall peace. This period will eventually give away to the rule of Enlightened Philosopher emperors, although, it will be the Senior Ko who will act as a collective emperor rather than the personification in one individual laying the groundwork for the events of 1116.

**IMTU, the Glorious Empire exists a breakaway rump of a greater Aslan state that existed in Milieu 200 which was a more centralized fascist or military statist polity. The loss of honor following the defeats at the hands of the Imperium has prevented it from being a major player in Hierate politics but serves a incubator for all sorts of dissatisfactions of second and third sons...as well as female Aslan breaking the gender modes.

 

[far-trader]

...Even precognition by Grandfather is not ruled out; the droyne believe the coynes can foresee the future and thus consult them in a variety of matters.... its said they are surprisingly accurate. If Grandfather could create an artifact that could do that, then he himself must be able to do that.

Just have to correct this. It's not a fact or even logically required.

I can't see the tiny creatures living inside water droplets any more than the inventor of the microscope could. The microscope itself allows seeing the very small while the inventor and users of it cannot without it's aid. Same thing with the Coyns prediction ability. The inventor and users don't have to have the ability to create or use them for the effect.

Which doesn't mean Grandfather couldn't be a precog, or that the Droyne who use the Coyns aren't either for that matter.

 

[rancke]

I would tend to think that saying the enigma is a matter of sloppy science or conspiracy nuts is off the mark. The study of Ancients has had the strong support of the Imperium and as such, probably has the best and brightest working on it. I can imagine the competitiveness in making new discoveries. In such a research enviroment, the weak theories are weeded out mercilessly.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

While your position is possible, its not stated as a matter of fact that the Aslans were a revision.

Yes, it is. I qouted the passage from SotA above. Here it is again:

"...[Grandfather] instituted the system of coyns [...] He continued to refine these coyns in light of what he found in his studies; over time, they came to show various races (Aslan, Hiver, K'kree) which did not even exist when Droyne ranged the stars."

"Over time, they came to show..." clearly implies that Aslan, K'Kree, and Hivers were not included in the original lineup and don't rule out that Humans and Vargr were also missing. The only thing that isn't stated anywhere is the date when those revisions were introduced.

Which only shows the range of surviving human races or simply the range which the Ancients chose to spread humanity.

Of course. And in any event, the implication is that some homeworlds are outside that range. But it's all the evidence we have.

Humans weren't the only race uplifted; Vargr enjoy a huge range. They may or may not have been others.

Humans weren't uplifted. In the Traveller universe they were already Homo sapiens 300,000 years ago. Archaic Homo sapiens, but nevertheless Homo sapiens. That's why a lot of the other human races are interfertile with the Solomani Homo sapiens sapiens.

The Vargr spread from a single homeworld. I agree that there may have been others (IMTU there's a race of uplifted otters in Urnian/Foreven), but if there were, they didn't get onto the coyns .

Even precognition by Grandfather is not ruled out; the droyne believe the coynes can foresee the future and thus consult them in a variety of matters.... its said they are surprisingly accurate. If Grandfather could create an artifact that could do that, then he himself must be able to do that.

I didn't say it was ruled out. I said that I preferred the simple solution that didn't involve precognition or time travel. Except for campaigns that specifically include time travel, I absolutely abhor causality violations. It always puzzles me that people who balk at a few piffling violations of the laws of thermodynamics will cheerfully swallow causality violations without a murmur :devil:.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

yes, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I know your position and you know mine.
Instead of rehashing again and again, how about other things about the Aslan?

It'd be pretty cool to work them out in better detail and work out aspects that haven't been mentioned yet. ( internal politics and relationships within the Heirate ).
In such a large space with many many clans/polities, it'd be a shame to thing of them as a single entity which act all alike. Humans arean't like that, neither should any other race.

I've put forward the idea of an impending war of unification once an Obunaga-like leader sets things in action.
Or how they are isolationist with events similar to Japan into the Sengoku through Edo periods.
Why not take the whole samurai trope to include ALL such historic analogies.Perhaps the forces and motives involved within the 29 that led to the Aslan Incursions ( another topic that sometimes ruffles feathers ).

somehow I missed your quote from SotA.... clearer, but still murky enough to allow for leeway in the matter, imho.

btw, I abhor precog/time-travel and even psi ( awareness is mostly okay, simply as I can look at it as meditative/chi control ), but they're in the rules and canon, so they had to be mentioned.

 

[mike wightman]

Isn't the device that grandfather left the zhodani with precog?

By the way, this is a rhetorical question.

Since it is.

 

[Whipsnade]

Ishmael,

Hans has corrected all of your various misconceptions so I needn't repeat that. Suffice it to say, you've got meta-game and in-game knowledge all jumbled together along with a wildly fractured timeline.

I do want to touch upon these gross conceptual errors however.

If the upper echelons know of the Pathfinder story and consider the entire major/minor labels nonsense, then why do the perpetuate them?

Why for the oldest reason of all: Power.

Collectively the Major Races have their feet, paws, hooves, and tentacles on the necks thousands of Minor Races and the Major Races' "polite reason" for this "relationship" is the idea that the Major Races' independently developed jump drive and the Minor Races' did not.

Of course this "Jump Drive Reason" is actually just an excuse. The real reason the Major Races dominate the Minor Races has to do with naked force. The Majors can simply beat the crap out of the Minors, but they don't want to rub the Minors' noses in that fact because that would lead to hurt feelings and dangerous ideas. So, they've come up with the "Jump Drive Reason" instead and there are any number of real world historical parallels to that.

If they wish to prevent public upheavals, then it can be assumed that the journalist's story would be suppressed; perhaps if widely published, it might be cast in the same light as sensationalist conspiracy theory much as Area 51 stories lest it be taken too seriously and believed by the common man.

First, mass media as you know it does not exist in the 57th Century. The manner in which FTL comms take place prevent that. Second, how do Akidda Laagiir's story hasn't been suppressed, spun, and consigned to the company of other sensationalist conspiracies?

In any case, these upper echelons fully support the idea that Aslan are a major race, so the common Imperial citizen believes it. As far as the greater mass of Imperial humanity is concerned, Aslan are a major race.... the upper crust agree ( even if they know better )

Not exactly. The mass of humaniti think the Alsan are a Major Race because the mass of humaniti thinks the Aslan developed jump drive independently. The elites know that the Alsan are a Major Race because the elites know that the Aslan are powerful enough to be a Major Race.

Humans, Droyne, and Vargr exist because of Ancient manipulations. And like the other races I mentioned, except for the ancient Droyne, none of them had developed even rudimentary civilizations on their own yet.

Wrong, completely wrong. Humaniti was not uplifted, as you incorrectly wrote in another post. Some Human Minor Races were geneered, but Humans were sentient before the Ancients visited Earth. Furthermore, all three races developed civilizations either before the Ancient period, as in the case of the Dryone, or after the Ancient period, as in the case of Humaniti and the Vargr.

The Droyne had power, but lost it in the final war and only recovered a bit because of Grandfather's meddling.

Wrong again. The Droyne have no power compared to the other Major Races. The case of the Dryone is the other canonical example that "reveals" the factual emptiness of the Major/Minor labeling system. In fact, the case of the Droyne suggested those labels were hollow before the Pathfinder incident was revealed.

The Droyne are a Major Race because they independently developed jump drive and not because they have any real power. When the Majors were running around blowing smoke about Majors, Minors, and the Jump Drive Reason, someone asked about the Droyne. Here was a race that lived on ~27 worlds scattered from Daibei to Tienspevnekr and had been using jump drives for longer than the Vilani. Were they a Major Race too?

The Droyne had to be added to the list of Majors, not because they were powerful, but because of their use of jump drive. They're on the list so that the Jump Drive LIE will seem consistent.

As far as the Ancient's range, we know little except that Earth was in it

As Hans as already explained, they more far more on a in-game sense and we know far more on a meta-game sense than you believe.

I'm admitting that I lack sources here however...

That's apparent and it has effected your interpretation of the issues.

The bit about the upper echelon knowing all about the truth yet don't want any potential problems based on those facts argues very strongly that the Aslan are a major race...

No one is suggesting they're not a Major Race. You're confusing the "Jump Drive Excuse" with the "Naked Power Reason" again. The Aslan are a Major Race because they can kick ass and the "Jump Drive Excuse" is nothing but a convenient lie.

Everything else is just fluff for conspiracy theorists.

Conspiracy theorists who buy into the "Jump Drive Excuse". Anyone in-game who bothers to think about the issue will quickly realize the real reason why the Aslan are a Major Race.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Why not take the whole samurai trope to include ALL such historic analogies.

Ishmael,

Because the Aslan aren't samurai, that's why.

Treating the Aslan like samurai and cramming them into various analogs of Japanese history is exactly what I'm objecting to. It's akin to all those people who see a few parallels between the Age of Sail in Traveller ship combat and then cram everything about the Age of Sail into Traveller whether it fits or not.

somehow I missed your quote from SotA.... clearer, but still murky enough to allow for leeway in the matter, imho.

Murky? This is murky?

"...[Grandfather] instituted the system of coyns [...] He continued to refine these coyns in light of what he found in his studies; over time, they came to show various races (Aslan, Hiver, K'kree) which did not even exist when Droyne ranged the stars."

It's murky that Yaskodray changed the coyns over time? It's murky that he went on multiple walkabouts? It's murky that he added races that didn't exist when the Ancients were active?

How much more clear do you need it to be?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Ishmael]

Treating the Aslan like samurai and cramming them into various analogs of Japanese history is exactly what I'm objecting to. It's akin to all those people who see a few parallels between the Age of Sail in Traveller ship combat and then cram everything about the Age of Sail into Traveller whether it fits or not.

Whipsnade,

Like it or not, the Aslan culture was fairly blatantly based upon Nippon Samurai traditions. That won't change regardless of whether you object to it or not. What I'm suggesting is the use as backstory for the Aslan, events that happened within such a culture and shaped by such a culture. Throwing stuff together willy-nilly because its 'cool' or appeals to you may not give the best, most consistent background. The historic periods I've suggested fit nicely with what has been published so far ( that I know of ) and offer a vibrant and exciting backdrop to any story relating to the Aslan complete with over-reaching motivations *for the culture ascribed to the Aslan race*. If anything, it'd help prevent the same old stereotypes of Samurai Warriors.
The purpose is to provide an exciting, yet consistent, setting for story-telling.

( age-o-sail ship combat??? I always pictured it as the age of dreadnoughts, myself.)

Murky? This is murky?
It's murky that Yaskodray changed the coyns over time? It's murky that he went on multiple walkabouts? It's murky that he added races that didn't exist when the Ancients were active?

How much more clear do you need it to be?

I do not know if that quote from SotA is referee-only material or if it is something pc's might learn in SotA. In either case, it wouldn't affect the status of the Aslan as a major race. Its a non-issue ( and if a ref-only bit, totally unknown to any Imperial citizen ).

As far as the content of the quote, all it says is that Grandfather changed coyns over time based on his studies. No dates are given. These changes occurred between -75,000 and -1000. That's a pretty wide range of dates that any changes *could* have been made in. If the -1000 date comes from SotA, then Imperial scientists would know of it only if they found an example and dated it. Presumably the Imperium has a method of dating archaeological finds*, yet the 'coyne enigma' remains ( MT Ref's Companion ), ergo, no -1000 coynes were found/identified as such.
To assume any coyns with Aslan, etc. are only from the -1000 when not specifically stated shows the interjection of favored opinion/interpretation into a void opened by a lack of hard fact.... That's "sloppy science".... and sloppy science tends to be murky.

Keep in mind that the issue concerns the general population's view that the Aslan are a major race, and thus I am looking at this, not from a privileged ref's view, but from the common man's view.

Richard

* This is the only purposeful assumption I've made here. Fairly reasonable I'd think, given all the high-tech gadgets and methods Imperial scientists researching Ancients should have by tech 15.

 

[rancke]

As far as the content of the quote, all it says is that Grandfather changed coyns over time based on his studies. No dates are given. These changes occurred between -75,000 and -1000. That's a pretty wide range of dates that any changes *could* have been made in.

But it does strongly imply that they were added when those races did become significant. This is the explanation for the aforementioned enigma. Otherwise, why mention it at all?

If the -1000 date comes from SotA, then Imperial scientists would know of it only if they found an example and dated it.

It isn't. Or if it is, I've been unable to find it again. I have a vague notion that it's from an adventure in one of the Challenges.

Presumably the Imperium has a method of dating archaeological finds*, yet the 'coyne enigma' remains ( MT Ref's Companion ), ergo, no -1000 coynes were found/identified as such.

You find some coyns with various motives, Aslans not among them, and date them to -75,000. You find some other coyns of the exact same style with an Aslan on them. If you can date them, you know that this one is only 2000 years old, but why wouldn't you conclude that they must be copies of coyns that were contemporary with the ones that you know are 75,000 years old?

To assume any coyns with Aslan, etc. are only from the -1000 when not specifically stated shows the interjection of favored opinion/interpretation into a void opened by a lack of hard fact....

The paragraph mentions that Grandfather introduced new coyns at a later date; it specifically mentions the three races that were the cause of the enigma; it does NOT say or in any way imply that those coyns, while introduced later, were still introduced before those three races became significant on a wider scale. To assume that this does not imply that the coyns were introduced after those three races did become significant shows the interjection of favored opinion/interpretation into a text that is quite clear in its implications.

Keep in mind that the issue concerns the general population's view that the Aslan are a major race, and thus I am looking at this, not from a privileged ref's view, but from the common man's view.

Except when you're looking at it from the point of view of a scientific community that you are touching confident would be able to reach any consensus about a subject as controversial as the Ancients.

To assume that Imperial scientists would be able to reach such a consensus likewise shows the interjection of favored opinion/interpretation.


Hans