Battleship and Battlerider

[rancke]

Some thoughts to ponder...In order to get someone into the Flight department of the Imperial Navy, there are basically two ways (I am ignoring the option of social 9+ choice)...University to Flight school or Naval Academy through flight school.

Of the people who WANT to be in the Imperial Navy flight branch, only 1 in 2000 actually make it to the Flight branch through University and 1 in 4000 make it through the Naval academy.

That's assuming the character generation system is an accurate representation of the underlying "reality". Which, unless you believe that 3% of the population are Imperial barons, it manifestly is not. At best, it is an accurate representation of what it takes for a player character to become a pilot. More likely, it is an inaccurate representation simplified for ease of gaming.

Realistically, the Imperial Navy trains as many pilots as it needs (And the ducal navies train as many as they need and the planetary navies train as many as they need). There's no plausible reason why the number of potential pilots should be particularily low.


Hans

 

[skyth]

Because it takes a rare breed to be pilots?

As for assuming that the character creation system is correct, isn't this whole argument of BR vs BB based on High Guard being correct?

 

[rancke]

Because it takes a rare breed to be pilots?

You can't prove it by the character generation rules. Apart from the automatic enlistment options (Flight School graduate, Soc 9+), any officer has a 1/6 chance of being assigned to Flight Branch[*]. Any character with either intelligence 10+ or education 9+ can select Flight Branch if he rolls a 4, 5, or 6. And any character with both can select Flight Branch as long as he doesn't roll a 1. Finally, any officer who has a command assignment may throw on the Command Officer Service Skill table and has a 1/6 chance of getting a level of pilot skill. Doesn't sound all that rare to me.

[*] So doesn't that mean the Flight Branch has at least one sixth of all officers?​

As for assuming that the character creation system is correct, isn't this whole argument of BR vs BB based on High Guard being correct?

Not my part of the argument. I'm propounding that High Guard's ship design and/or combat system is flawed because it is inconsistent with the setting material that we know of (E.g. the statement that battleships are able to stand up against other battleships while cruisers are not, the existence of large numbers of battleships in the Imperial Navy).


Hans

 

[skyth]

You can't prove it by the character generation rules. Apart from the automatic enlistment options (Flight School graduate, Soc 9+), any officer has a 1/6 chance of being assigned to Flight Branch[*]. Any character with either intelligence 10+ or education 9+ can select Flight Branch if he rolls a 4, 5, or 6. And any character with both can select Flight Branch as long as he doesn't roll a 1.

[*] So doesn't that mean the Flight Branch has at least one sixth of all officers?​

You forget the Imperial Navy has a -2 to the roll. I am also assuming that a 10 is a high stat and unlikely.

Not my part of the argument. I'm propounding that High Guard's ship design and/or combat system is flawed because it is inconsistent with the setting material that we know of (E.g. the statement that battleships are able to stand up against other battleships while cruisers are not, the existence of large numbers of battleships in the Imperial Navy).


Hans

Well, the pilot system with how rare someone in the flight branch is gives the Fridge Logic why there are more battleships out there. If You assume that the Cruisers have J guns and the Battleships have T guns, it makes more sense that Cruisers have trouble standing against Battleships as well.

 

[AndreaV]

Without a spinal, a ship is not a threat. That is an effective mission kill. With the M drive out, that means the ship might as well be dead as well. Not sure how it could keep up in the fight anyways.

With its MDrive gone, not sure how you can withdraw it either

Irrelevant. I was going by the actual statistics of things happening. Besides, if memory serves, the statistical combat resolution is only used for large number of die rolls (And by large, that means >35). 10 rolls is not in that range as far as I'm concerned.

Actually it cuts in at ten identical rolls.

HOWEVER, just to look at this "properly", please have a look at the following...

1 x Jmes Class Battleriders

Ship: Jmes
Class: Jmes
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
BR-H106NJ2-E99909-999J9-0 MCr 10,356.150 8.2 KTons
Bat Bear 2 1 11111 Crew: 96
Bat 2 1 11111 TL: 15

Cargo: 3.500 Frozen Watch Fuel: 1,804.000 EP: 1,804.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 8
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 103.562 Cost in Quantity: MCr 8,284.920



1 x Jmesship Class Battleships

Ship: Jmesship
Class: Jmesship
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
BB-R1469J3-B99909-999J9-0 MCr 86,938.112 100 KTons
Bat Bear Y 4 11117 Crew: 808
Bat Z 6 1111A TL: 15

Cargo: 139.000 Frozen Watch Fuel: 49,000.000 EP: 9,000.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 100
Craft: 4 x 30T Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer
Substitutions: Y = 56 Z = 80

Architects Fee: MCr 869.381 Cost in Quantity: MCr 69,550.490



1 x Jmesten Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Jmesten
Class: Jmesten
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
AF-L7414J3-099900-99003-0 MCr 9,011.890 20.8 KTons
Bat Bear H 11 7 Crew: 148
Bat J 11 8 TL: 15

Cargo: 14.000 Fuel: 9,152.000 EP: 832.000 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 21
Craft: 1 x 8200T Rider, 4 x 30T Boat

Architects Fee: MCr 90.119 Cost in Quantity: MCr 7,209.512



1 x Tmes Class Battleriders

Ship: Tmes
Class: Tmes
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
BR-L106FJ3-B99909-999T9-0 MCr 21,840.812 24 KTons
Bat Bear 7 2 11112 Crew: 277
Bat 8 3 11113 TL: 15

Cargo: 263.500 Frozen Watch Fuel: 3,600.000 EP: 3,600.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 24
Craft: 4 x 30T Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 218.408 Cost in Quantity: MCr 17,472.650



1 x Tmesship Class Battleships

Ship: Tmesship
Class: Tmesship
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
BB-T1469J4-B99909-999T9-0 MCr 341,845.822 396 KTons
Bat Bear X 6 1111Q Crew: 3146
Bat Z A 1111Y TL: 15

Cargo: 2.500 Frozen Watch Fuel: 194,040.000 EP: 35,640.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 396
Craft: 4 x 30T Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer
Substitutions: X = 201 Y = 40 Z = 336

Architects Fee: MCr 3,418.458 Cost in Quantity: MCr 273,476.658



1 x Tmesten Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Tmesten
Class: Tmesten
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
AF-P7414J3-099900-99003-0 MCr 25,099.240 59.6 KTons
Bat Bear Y 11 4 Crew: 363
Bat Z 11 6 TL: 15

Cargo: 80.000 Fuel: 26,224.000 EP: 2,384.000 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 60
Craft: 1 x 24000T Rider, 4 x 30T Boat
Substitutions: Y = 45 Z = 57

Architects Fee: MCr 250.992 Cost in Quantity: MCr 20,079.392



1 x Tpa Class Battleriders

Ship: Tpa
Class: Tpa
Type: Battlerider
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
BR-K106KJ3-B99909-99T99-0 MCr 16,160.062 15 KTons
Bat Bear 4 2 11122 Crew: 180
Bat 4 2 11122 TL: 15

Cargo: 97.000 Frozen Watch Fuel: 2,850.000 EP: 2,850.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 15
Craft: 4 x 30T Ships Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 161.601 Cost in Quantity: MCr 12,928.050



1 x Tpaship Class Battleships

Ship: Tpaship
Class: Tpaship
Type: Battleship
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
BB-S1469J4-B99909-99T99-0 MCr 192,440.832 222 KTons
Bat Bear X 6 1111K Crew: 1778
Bat Z A 1111Y TL: 15

Cargo: 19.500 Frozen Watch Fuel: 108,780.000 EP: 19,980.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 222
Craft: 4 x 30T Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer
Substitutions: X = 114 Y = 30 Z = 176

Architects Fee: MCr 1,924.408 Cost in Quantity: MCr 153,952.666



1 x Tpaten Class Fleet Tenders

Ship: Tpaten
Class: Tpaten
Type: Fleet Tender
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
AF-M7414J3-099900-99003-0 MCr 15,889.240 37.4 KTons
Bat Bear Y 11 3 Crew: 237
Bat Z 11 4 TL: 15

Cargo: 8.000 Fuel: 16,456.000 EP: 1,496.000 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 37
Craft: 1 x 15000T Rider, 4 x 30T Boat
Substitutions: Y = 31 Z = 35

Architects Fee: MCr 158.892 Cost in Quantity: MCr 12,711.392



1 x FYB Class Boats

Ship: FYB
Class: FYB
Type: Boat
Architect: Andrew Vallance

USP
YB-0602211-030000-00002-0 MCr 9.950 30 Tons
Bat Bear 1 1 1 Crew: 2
Bat 1 1 1 TL: 15

Cargo: 11.500 Passengers: 14 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.600 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.100 Cost in Quantity: MCr 7.960

It would appear that you can get the following

7.3 T meson riders for 1 T meson ship
9.9 J meson riders for 1 T PA ship
3.9 J meson ships for 1 T meson ship
1.7 J meson riders for 1 T PA rider
2.4 J meson riders for 1 T meson rider
2.2 J meson ships for 1 T PA ship
EDIT I forgot
17.6 J meson riders for 1 T meson ship

Clearly at 10 to 1 a force of T PA ships is going to be cut to pieces by a force of J meson riders. However the T PA rider is an attractive option.

 

[rancke]

You forget the Imperial Navy has a -2 to the roll. I am also assuming that a 10 is a high stat and unlikely.

Ah yes, I did overlook that. So you need either high intelligence or high education. But as for high stats, there's a 6 in 36 chance of being born with 10+ int and a 10 in 36 of being "born" with edu 9+. If you add the pre-enlistment option of going to college, high edu becomes even more likely (my math isn't up to figuring out exactly how much). But in addition, the enlistment roll pre-selects for higher intelligence and education, another factor I can't put a figure on, especially since there is no throw for deciding to try to get into college.

And any command offcier may receive pilot skill.

Well, the pilot system with how rare someone in the flight branch is gives the Fridge Logic why there are more battleships out there.

But that explanation is not plausible.

If You assume that the Cruisers have J guns and the Battleships have T guns, it makes more sense that Cruisers have trouble standing against Battleships as well.

Yes, but there's no reason why cruisers can't have T guns, and meson guns make it impossible for battleships to be better armored than cruisers because meson gun ignore armor. The equivalent of armor is meson screens and cruisers and battleships are equally able to carry the best available.

The description makes cruisers sound like eggshells armed with hammers and battleships like coconuts armed with hammers. But the design system makes battleships into really big and expensive eggshells.


Hans

 

[skyth]

Actually, the Flight Branch rarity is a plausible explanation for the universe.

As for the stat difference, I work under the assumption that PC's (And major NPC's) are above average and thus can roll for stats. Everyone else is stuck with 7's across the board.

A Battleship with a T gun will be more survivable than a Cruiser with a J gun. Maybe there is some sort of technical problem in 'reality' with putting anything bigger than a J gun on a cruiser.

I've never thought the High Guard combat system worked all that well. The ship design is pretty good. Just the combat system needs work.

 

[rancke]

Actually, the Flight Branch rarity is a plausible explanation for the universe.

Not if Flight Branch rarity isn't plausible in the first place. It's like saying that low-diameter worlds with dense atmospheres are plausible if worlds with neutronium cores are common. Since worlds with neutronium cores aren't common, low-diameter worlds with dense atmospheres are still not plausible. Same for your explanation.

Here's something I just thought of while grocery shopping:

A planetary navy in need of pilots assigns one in six officer to the flight branch, regardless of intelligence and education. This shows that it is possible to make a pilot out of at least some people with education and intelligence below 9 and 10 respectively. So when the Imperial Navy only accepts people with high intelligence or education or both, it shows that the IN has so many candidates that it can afford to be choosy. It follows that there is no shortage of pilots in the Imperial Navy. In other words, the Imperial Navy has all the pilots it needs to fill all its pilot slots, and if it needed any more pilots, all it would have to do would be to recruit some with int 9 or edu 8.

(Assuming for purposes of argument that the character creation system is an accurate representation of the underlying "reality".)


Hans

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Why does a pilot have to be an officer?

It is possible that the imperium could draw from the enlisted ranks as well, especially for small craft operations?

 

[skyth]

The only way to get a non-officer Flight Department is through cross-training or getting in with a high SOC.

Also, the character creation system supports that the Flight Department is rare relative to the other branches. Since the numbers don't change depending on the situation that the Imperium is in, it is logical to assume that they cannot just arbitrarily assign someone to the Flight Department.

And there is a way for lower INT/EDU people to get into the Flight Department...University or Naval Academy.

I'm not even sure that the 1/500 numbers that I estimated of people who want to join the Imperial Navy are even close. How many people would want to leave their homeworld to likely never see their friends and family again?

There is a plausible in-universe reason for pilot numbers to be low. Granted, the ship numbers that we are given seem low as well, but don't include all the patrol craft, etc. that would also be neccessary.

 

[rancke]

Why does a pilot have to be an officer?

Character generation. Only officers can get into Flight Branch, and the only table outside the Flight Branch skill table that gives you pilot is the Command Officer skill table.

Unlees I've overlooked something (a distinct possibility), thre's only one way for an enlisted man to gain pilot skill, and that's to roll on the Flight Branch skill table during crosstraining, and as a referee I'd disallow that based on the above.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

Hans,

You don't like "bootstrap" officers?

 

[rancke]

Hans,

You don't like "bootstrap" officers?

I don't understand the question.


Hans

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I don't understand the question.


Hans

Early WW II, the British and Americans use Sergeant to fill in the gaps in their pilot ranks. They never went through officer's training, they only trained as pilots. Later on they were given the rank of Officer.

There were also those battlefield commision which promoted sergeant to officers. Audey Murphy was one such man.

 

[rancke]

Early WW II, the British and Americans use Sergeant to fill in the gaps in their pilot ranks. They never went through officer's training, they only trained as pilots. Later on they were given the rank of Officer.

Maybe the Imperial Navy don't suffer similar shortages even during the big wars. Or maybe that's a failing of the character generation system, it doesn't account for the changes wrought by big wars. After all, you don't even know which term corresponds to, say, the 4th Frontier War, until character generation ends.

All I'm saying is that the evidence suggests that the Imperial Navy doesn't train enlisted men in piloting under normal circumstances.

There were also those battlefield commision which promoted sergeant to officers. Audey Murphy was one such man.

Enlisted men can be selected for OCS. But as there are no enlisted men in Flight Branch...


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

If it makes for a more interesting back story, and a more interesting role playing experiance then why not?

As for the OTU, I'm happy to allow Battle Filed Promotions, and Enlisted Flyers. High Ranking NCOs in officer positions makes complete scense to me. Likely because I'm used to it.

Field Promotions and rissing from the ranks is an excepted part of the current military, and I couldn't see why this wouldn't be the case in the Imperium as it meets the "man on the ground" personal responsibility attitude that we know the Imperium takes.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

If it makes for a more interesting back story, and a more interesting role playing experiance then why not?

That's a perfectly valid point of view, but it's not one that everybody holds. It's like arguing about whether or not d'Artagnan could have had a Japanese nanny who taught him ninja techniques. If it makes for a more interesting back story, and a more interesting role playing experience then why not? As it happens, some people have their roleplaying experiences ruined by something like that. That's why not.

Also, it makes the entire discussion moot. If anything goes, why bother to discuss if ninja musketeers or mustang Flight Branch officers go? There's nothing to discuss, because of course they do.

As for the OTU, I'm happy to allow Battle Filed Promotions, and Enlisted Flyers. High Ranking NCOs in officer positions makes complete sense to me. Likely because I'm used to it.

But it's not up to you (or me) to decide whether Battle Field promotions and enlisted flyers are allowed in the OTU. In YTU you get to decide. In MTU I get to decide. But in the OTU it's Marc Miller and his chief henchmen who get to decide. At most we can dig through the Recieved Wisdom and try to figure out if they're allowed or not. If we're lucky, we'll find a positive statement about it; otherwise we're stuck with a firm 'maybe'. Or 'probably'. Or 'almost certainly'. Or 'probably not'. Or 'almost certainly not'. Or "Oh, it happens, but so rarely that it is below the resolution of the character generation system; it's not a regular custom".

Field Promotions and rissing from the ranks is an excepted part of the current military, and I couldn't see why this wouldn't be the case in the Imperium as it meets the "man on the ground" personal responsibility attitude that we know the Imperium takes.

I just gave you two possible reasons: In peacetime, the Imperial Navy gets all the officers they need for their flight branch without having to resort to promoting from the ranks. During major conflicts this is either still true or the CGS fails to account for promotions from the ranks during major conflicts.

This is a huge interstellar navy in the 57th Century, not a planet-bound military in the 21st. There may well be a lot of similarities, but everything doesn't have to work exactly the same way. In fact, it would be passing strange if it did.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

I didn't assume back up bridge. Those are too big to be worthwhile. Mission kill crit is Ship vaporized, Bridge Destroyed, M Drive destroyed, Power Plant Disabled, and Spinal Mount out. A total of 12 chances out of 36, so 1/3.

And no, a J meson does not automatically shatter the fuel tanks with every hit. It has ten 1/9 chances to do so. The math on that is 70% likely.

True, but also 1/6 of the rolls will be a critical (about 1.5 per hit), adding a little more to the killing ratio.

 

[McPerth]

Hans,

Fighters are small craft. You use small craft skill to pilot them. I suppose you could use pilot skill, but why then would there be a small craft skill?

So your overall pilot need is smaller and thus your pop/pilot ratio is bigger.

Sorry

While this is true, don’t forget the fighter pilots are taken from the Flight branch, and there is quite more easy to get Pilot skill than Ship’s Boat (at least in Imperial Navy).

Also, when TCS, mostly in the billion credit squadron, limits pilots number, I guess (I cannot talk for its designers) that they precisely wanted to keep out large numbers of fighters, so, when limiting pilots, they talked about Pilot and Ship’s Boat skill equally.

Irrelevant. I was going by the actual statistics of things happening. Besides, if memory serves, the statistical combat resolution is only used for large number of die rolls (And by large, that means >35). 10 rolls is not in that range as far as I'm concerned.

True for one hit. But if we talk about several times 10 rolls (due to several ships firing and several hits achieved), we talk about enough rolls as for statistics not being irrelevant.

Why does a pilot have to be an officer?

It is possible that the imperium could draw from the enlisted ranks as well, especially for small craft operations?

If we talk about small craft operations, then we’re talking about Ship’s Boat skill, any Navy character may have achieve it on the ‘shipboard life’ table. Even Marines can have it if served as ship’s troops (shipboard table).

 

[Peter Schutze]

>it shows that the IN has so many candidates that it can afford to be choosy. It follows that there is no shortage of pilots in the Imperial Navy.

yeh I know its not an exact analogy but perhaps you are looking at it the wrong way round ?

most people join the airforce (imperial navy) with dreams of being a pilot but the real world airforces need 30+ other people to keep a plane in the air. the readiness / operational availability required directly translates to a higher ratio of others to pilot ..... in the real world at least. I'd expect the imperial navy to maintain a far higher readiness than most local navies

also consider post airforce career aspirations .... much easier to become a jumbo (tureka liner) pilot after being an airforce (cruiser / battleship) pilot than working your way up from cessna's (T-patrol or other local little navy ships) etc