Battleship and Battlerider

[Ishmael]

In MT, at least, enlisted can gain pilot ( or ship's boat ) skill in the basic navy character generation.

In advanced character generation, enlisted can gain pilot or ship's boat through specialist training or cross training and if cross-trained, then they may go into that branch upon re-enlistment. So if an enlisted cross-trains in the flight branch, he may re-enlist in the flight branch..... enlisted in the flight branch.
of course, enlisted may also gain ship's boat skill in the shipboard life skill table, as well.

as fighters are generally under 100dtons and have no j-drive, ship's boat is good enough to 'fly' them.

thus, enlisted pilots do exist in the OTU Imperial Navy as implied by the rules as written.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Previous points taken, about YTU, MTU, and Better role playing experiances.

I just gave you two possible reasons: In peacetime, the Imperial Navy gets all the officers they need for their flight branch without having to resort to promoting from the ranks. During major conflicts this is either still true or the CGS fails to account for promotions from the ranks during major conflicts.

Agreed about Peace time, however Character Generation covers Battle Assignments, Counter Insurgancies, War Missions, Strike and Siege missions, Raid and Police Actions. I would suggest this covers all posible activities from peace to major conflicts. The various published earers of Traveller pritty much centre around "mayor" conflicts, The Founding of the 3rd Imperium, the Solomani Rim War, the 5thFW, the Rebellion, the Founding of the Reformation Coilition, where charcters are created and earers played in, which I believe backs up my point.

This is a huge interstellar navy in the 57th Century, not a planet-bound military in the 21st. There may well be a lot of similarities, but everything doesn't have to work exactly the same way. In fact, it would be passing strange if it did.

Agreed. However that doesn't negate that much of the times in the OTU where published are "mayor conflict" periods where field promotions, and rising from the ranks would be a valid and useful additions to the Imperial Forces officer corps. Again as I expressed earlier we know from the way the Imperium works through Honor, Duty, Personal Responsibility and taking desitions without the benifit of a chain of command.

So having these options in CG I believe is valid and works in these contexts.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Education prior to military service is also key in this discussion as well.

Rancke pointed out that the Imperium is not going to allow some back world pilot to take control of a warship just because he has the skills to do so. In addition they are not going to select a student from one of those worlds as well to be a pilot. It's a valid point but also limits the pool of canidates even further.

I validate this point by say this: A low tech world is not going to have the advance courses necessary to give the pilot canidate the background courses, that will enable him or her to flight a warship. No government is going to spend the credits or time to teach an individual the require background courses that aide a pilot in his duty, with the exception being during wartime.

The enlisted personal pilots are there to handle grav carrier and small craft operation. When you think about it, they are the most dangerous piloting jobs within the Imperium. The risk of being killed during a ground assualt on an enemy world is much greater than that of a larger ship.

So it's a matter of conserving your resources. Officers pilot Starships, enlisted pilot small craft and grav vehicles.

 

[rancke]

In MT, at least, enlisted can gain pilot ( or ship's boat ) skill in the basic navy character generation.

Pilot and Ship's boat are two different skills and apply to different vehicles. Pilot applies to starships; it does not apply to fighters.

In advanced character generation, enlisted can gain pilot or ship's boat through specialist training or cross training and if cross-trained, then they may go into that branch upon re-enlistment. So if an enlisted cross-trains in the flight branch, he may re-enlist in the flight branch..... enlisted in the flight branch.

Enlisted men can gain Ship's Boat through specialist training but not Pilot. I think the cross-training loop-hole is a mistake, since from other evidence enlisted men can't get into the Flight Branch.

Of course, enlisted may also gain ship's boat skill in the shipboard life skill table, as well.
as fighters are generally under 100dtons and have no j-drive, ship's boat is good enough to 'fly' them.

Of course, but this is completely irrelevant, since Ship's Boat skill is used for something different than Pilot skill.

I think you (and others) are getting confused by the term 'fighter pilot'. In a Traveller setting fighter pilots don't use pilot skill to pilot their fighters.

thus, enlisted pilots do exist in the OTU Imperial Navy as implied by the rules as written.

The preponderance of evidence is that only officers are employed in jobs that require them to have Pilot [Starships] skill and also that only officers are assigned to Flight Branch.

Also, the rules make shuttles and fighters both require the exact same skill, namely Ship's Boat skill. But even assuming that this is accurate, there's nothing that proves that enlisted men with Ship's Boat skill are given fighters to fly. Given that enlisted men can't be assigned to Flight Branch initially, I strongly suspect they usually don't.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Rancke pointed out that the Imperium is not going to allow some back world pilot to take control of a warship just because he has the skills to do so. In addition they are not going to select a student from one of those worlds as well to be a pilot. It's a valid point but also limits the pool of canidates even further.

It's a point I didn't make and one I don't quite understand. I never mentioned the tech level of member worlds. I contrasted the Imperial Navy with planetary navies in general, regardless of tech level (Because that's what the CGS rules do).

The enlisted personal pilots are there to handle grav carrier and small craft operation. When you think about it, they are the most dangerous piloting jobs within the Imperium. The risk of being killed during a ground assualt on an enemy world is much greater than that of a larger ship.

And enlisted men can learn Ship's Boat skill regardless of what branch they're in, on the Shipboard Life service skill table. Nevertheless, officers have a better chance of learning Ship's Boat skill than enlisted men, since they can get it on both Shipboard Life and Command Officer.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Agreed about Peace time, however Character Generation covers Battle Assignments, Counter Insurgancies, War Missions, Strike and Siege missions, Raid and Police Actions. I would suggest this covers all posible activities from peace to major conflicts.

It does. But by 'major conflict' I mean one that engulfs a significant portion of the Imperium. In "peacetime" or if you prefer "minor conflict time", if the 208th Fleet suffers a loss of a dozen command officers with Pilot skill in a skirmish with Star Pirates, it may feel compelled to promote mustangs, but I think it's far more likely that it will request a transfer of replacements from the 43rd or the 100th. And, frankly, I find it even more likely that it would have some suitable junior officers with the requisite skill sets ready to step into the dead men's shoes.

(No such thing as War, Counter Insurgency, or Police Action missions for the Navy, BTW.)

So having these options in CG I believe is valid and works in these contexts.

But they're not available in CG. That may be a flaw. But it's also possible that the Imperial Navy never find itself in a position when it is running so short of officers with Pilot skill that it feels compelled to promote enlisted men. Especially since it does not appear that enlisted men are taught Pilot skill in the first place, except possibly by a rare fluke.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Pilot and Ship's boat are two different skills and apply to different vehicles. Pilot applies to starships; it does not apply to fighters.

True, but space skill let you choose among them (and others), and it may be adquired in the specialist school (in MT).

You must also remember that Pilot skill may be used as Ship's Boat (at -1), and most characters in flight will end (at least on IN) with more Pilot that Ship's Boat, so will use it even if piloting a launch.

Also don't forget you're only speacking about Advanced CahrGen, In Basic CharGen you don't need to be officier to have Pilot skill...

Enlisted men can gain Ship's Boat through specialist training but not Pilot. I think the cross-training loop-hole is a mistake, since from other evidence enlisted men can't get into the Flight Branch.

I agree in this point. Among the people I played with, we've always assumed (through it's not hard on rules) that you could only cross train in a branch you could be on, so only officiers could cross train as Flight or Line only enlisted in Crew, and only IN in thechnical services.

Of course, but this is completely irrelevant, since Ship's Boat skill is used for something different than Pilot skill.

I think you (and others) are getting confused by the term 'fighter pilot'. In a Traveller setting fighter pilots don't use pilot skill to pilot their fighters.


The preponderance of evidence is that only officers are employed in jobs that require them to have Pilot [Starships] skill and also that only officers are assigned to Flight Branch.

Also, the rules make shuttles and fighters both require the exact same skill, namely Ship's Boat skill. But even assuming that this is accurate, there's nothing that proves that enlisted men with Ship's Boat skill are given fighters to fly. Given that enlisted men can't be assigned to Flight Branch initially, I strongly suspect they usually don't.


Hans

Even so, background states most Fighter Pilots come from Flight branch...

And, as stated above, for IN, they will have more Pilot skill than Ship's Boat, to the point that (at least as my experience tells) they mostly use it (assuming the -1) and still are better.

 

[skyth]

True, but also 1/6 of the rolls will be a critical (about 1.5 per hit), adding a little more to the killing ratio.

I included that in my original analysis.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Enlisted men can gain Ship's Boat through specialist training but not Pilot. I think the cross-training loop-hole is a mistake, since from other evidence enlisted men can't get into the Flight Branch.

No the evidence is that they indeed _can_ get into flight branch. You are arguing that the rules should be changed so that they can't.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Education prior to military service is also key in this discussion as well.

I disagree, otherewise why would there be an OCS?

Rancke pointed out that the Imperium is not going to allow some back world pilot to take control of a warship just because he has the skills to do so. In addition they are not going to select a student from one of those worlds as well to be a pilot. It's a valid point but also limits the pool of canidates even further.

That "back world pilot" could be chosen for OCS and then handed the controlls. I understand that the difference is the OCS part, but it essentially discredits your argument. I would argue that if that "back world pilot" had the skills nessesary then the Imperium would put them in control of a warship.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

It does. But by 'major conflict' I mean one that engulfs a significant portion of the Imperium. In "peacetime" or if you prefer "minor conflict time", if the 208th Fleet suffers a loss of a dozen command officers with Pilot skill in a skirmish with Star Pirates, it may feel compelled to promote mustangs, but I think it's far more likely that it will request a transfer of replacements from the 43rd or the 100th. And, frankly, I find it even more likely that it would have some suitable junior officers with the requisite skill sets ready to step into the dead men's shoes.

Yes I understood your point and I backed up mine by mentioning the major conflicts in the timescles where the rules sets are based. CT 4th FW and 5th FW. MT Rebellion, T4 Founding, T20 Solomani Rim. All 'major conflict's engulphing significant proportions of the Imperium yes? and all needed to be covered in Character Generation. Somthing you seem to have ignored.

(No such thing as War, Counter Insurgency, or Police Action missions for the Navy, BTW.)

I agress, however I used these from the other careers as examples of where Character Generation covers the whole spectrum of peace and war, or 'major conflict' from your definition of 'major conflict'.

But they're not available in CG. That may be a flaw. But it's also possible that the Imperial Navy never find itself in a position when it is running so short of officers with Pilot skill that it feels compelled to promote enlisted men. Especially since it does not appear that enlisted men are taught Pilot skill in the first place, except possibly by a rare fluke.

But they are available. You are arguing _against_ them being there! I'm justifying there inclusion.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[mike wightman]

If you need a lot of pilots in a hurry draft them in from the Scout service - automatic pilot 1 and no ranks to worry about at all

 

[rancke]

Yes I understood your point and I backed up mine by mentioning the major conflicts in the timescles where the rules sets are based. CT 4th FW and 5th FW. MT Rebellion, T4 Founding, T20 Solomani Rim. All 'major conflict's engulphing significant proportions of the Imperium yes? and all needed to be covered in Character Generation. Somthing you seem to have ignored.

Actually, the rules ignore them. There's no way to determine which term of a character's career takes place during any particular year until the entire process is over. One explanation is that the differences are ignored. But another possibility is that the differences do not affect caracter generation significantly.

So far from ignoring this question I actually wrote a variant article for The Traveller Chronicle that addressed it. It was a bit labor-intensive and very non-generic, though, since you had to work out a different chart for every time and place used as a setting.

But they are available. You are arguing _against_ them being there! I'm justifying there inclusion.

You are confusing evidence with proof. I have evidence that Flight Branch don't have enlisted men because enlisted men can't join FB. You have evidence that there are enlisted men in Flight Branch because the Character Generation system allows enlisted men to get into FB by first cross-training, then transferring.

However, by the exact same logic it is possible for someone in a planetary navy to cross-train in Technical Branch and transfer, or for enlisted men to join Line and officers to join Crew. Therefore I don't think your evidence is convincing.


Hans

 

[skyth]

You are confusing evidence with proof. I have evidence that Flight Branch don't have enlisted men because enlisted men can't join FB. You have evidence that there are enlisted men in Flight Branch because the Character Generation system allows enlisted men to get into FB by first cross-training, then transferring.

If you enlist with Soc 9+, you can choose your branch. It is possible to choose Flight branch then at enlistment and not be an officer, barring something that specifically bars enlisted from being Flight Branch.

 

[rancke]

If you enlist with Soc 9+, you can choose your branch. It is possible to choose Flight branch then at enlistment and not be an officer, barring something that specifically bars enlisted from being Flight Branch.

Whereas I admit that Ewan is right about the rules as written allowing cross-training and subsequent transfer to Flight Branch, I think that this a straight misinterpretation of the rules. If you have Soc 9+ you have a free choice of the available options without having to roll the die. But only the ones listed for enlisted men are available for enlisted men to choose, only the ones listed for officers are available for officers to choose. Officers can't choose Crew, enlisted men can't choose Line, people in a planetary navy can't choose Technical Service... and enlisted men can't choose Flight Branch.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Actually, the rules ignore them. There's no way to determine which term of a character's career takes place during any particular year until the entire process is over. One explanation is that the differences are ignored. But another possibility is that the differences do not affect caracter generation significantly.

Agreed the rules ignore them per say, however they also ignore any type of context. So they ignore whether the Imperium is at peace as well. So I'm happy to accept that the differences don't affect charcter generation, and that character generation covers all posibilities from peace through to war (or major conflicts).

So far from ignoring this question I actually wrote a variant article for The Traveller Chronicle that addressed it. It was a bit labor-intensive and very non-generic, though, since you had to work out a different chart for every time and place used as a setting.

I'll look it up. Thanks.

You are confusing evidence with proof. I have evidence that Flight Branch don't have enlisted men because enlisted men can't join FB. You have evidence that there are enlisted men in Flight Branch because the Character Generation system allows enlisted men to get into FB by first cross-training, then transferring.

I disagree. And I'm not confusing evidence with proof. Enlisted men can't join Flight "School" because you need a commision, and flight school grads auto join flight branch. However there is nothing to limit the branch of an enlisted man, you just can't join flight in your first term (because you can't role it) unless that enlisted man has a SOC of 9+ because then can choise any branch they like (including flight).

However, by the exact same logic it is possible for someone in a planetary navy to cross-train in Technical Branch and transfer, or for enlisted men to join Line and officers to join Crew. Therefore I don't think your evidence is convincing.

No that logic doesn't stand. Technical Branch is only limited to the Imperial Navy and you can't change Navies. And Line and Crew are the same branch, just called different things. So from that you can't discount my proof with that argument, becuase you start from an incorect premis.

I can see the proof that backs up my argument that enlisted men can join flight branch, but I cannot see any evidence that only officers can join flight branch. I'll read through CG again just to make sure, but I just can't see it.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[skyth]

That's not what the rules say.

any individual with a social standing of 9+ may select any branch desired

I repeat...'any branch desired.' No requirement for it to be a branch that is possible to be rolled. With the 'any branch desired', in order for Flight to not be possible under that wording, there has to be a specific exclusion for enlisted in Flight like there is for Technical Service and Crew/Line.

There is no hard requirement to be an Officer to be in the Flight branch, it's just that Enlisted have to jump through hoops to get into it (Either by having someone put in a word for you or by cross training).

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Whereas I admit that Ewan is right about the rules as written allowing cross-training and subsequent transfer to Flight Branch, I think that this a straight misinterpretation of the rules. If you have Soc 9+ you have a free choice of the available options without having to roll the die. But only the ones listed for enlisted men are available for enlisted men to choose, only the ones listed for officers are available for officers to choose. Officers can't choose Crew, enlisted men can't choose Line, people in a planetary navy can't choose Technical Service... and enlisted men can't choose Flight Branch.


Hans

There is nothing to limit the choice of the SOC 9+ person. There is no limit to which branch you chose ... unless you are in the resurves or the planitary (can't choise technical).

Line/Crew is the same branch, it's just called different things as to whether you are enlisted or commisened. I can see how this can cause confusion (they should have just called it Line), however it's the same.

I can see where and how you interperate the rules the way you do, however it is a misinterpretation. There is no rule to limit an enlisted man's branch. I'll agree with you that it's hard for an enlisted man to get into flight branch, I'll agree with you that there will be mostly officers in the flight branch, however there is nothing writen that limits an enlisted man from being in flight branch.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Enlisted men can't join Flight "School" because you need a commision, and flight school grads auto join flight branch. However there is nothing to limit the branch of an enlisted man, you just can't join flight in your first term (because you can't role it) unless that enlisted man has a SOC of 9+ because then can choise any branch they like (including flight).

See my reply to Skyth. Either "any branch desired" includes Technical Service in non-IN navies or it does not actually mean ANY branch desired but "any available branch desired". One or the other. Personally I go for not being able to choose Technical Service in navies that don't have one. And enlisted men not being able to choose Flight Branch. Enlisted men can enlist in Crew, Engineering, Gunnery, and Medical, plus Technical Service in the IN. If their Soc is 9+ they can choose between the available options; if not, they're assigned by the selection board as represented by one die.

No that logic doesn't stand. Technical Branch is only limited to the Imperial Navy and you can't change Navies. And Line and Crew are the same branch, just called different things. So from that you can't discount my proof with that argument, becuase you start from an incorect premise.

True about Line/Crew being the same. But there remains the Technical Services. The rule for cross-training states that "The character may roll once on the branch skills table in any other branch." [HG:5] It doesn't say that "any" only refer to available branches, but that's a pretty obvious limitation. However, it doesn't say so. So the fact that it doesn't say that enlisted men can't cross-train in Flight Branch either is evidence that they can, but not proof.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

You are confusing evidence with proof. I have evidence that Flight Branch don't have enlisted men because enlisted men can't join FB. You have evidence that there are enlisted men in Flight Branch because the Character Generation system allows enlisted men to get into FB by first cross-training, then transferring.

The basic chargen is also part of the OTU and in it enlisted naval personnel can get pilot skill. More evidence unless you're stating a position that advanced chargen completely supersedes basic chargen in all cases and that basic chargen is no longer OTU....

However, by the exact same logic it is possible for someone in a planetary navy to cross-train in Technical Branch and transfer, or for enlisted men to join Line and officers to join Crew. Therefore I don't think your evidence is convincing.

Not the same logic at all. By the RAW, technical branch is only available to Imperial forces, and that "... It is not possible to transfer between the System Squadron, the Reserve Fleet, and the Imperial Navy" (MT,pg53). The Imperial navy provides some training and support to those smaller forces, but that does not automatically mean that members of the smaller forces may cross over to the Imperial Navy.
Line and Crew branches are the same exact duty except that 'line' refers to commissioned officers and 'crew' refers to enlisted. Different terminology for color, but otherwise completely identical in all respects.

The rules invite confusion with the entire 'flight school' and the flight branch being the only way to earn pilot skill in adv chargen navy. By using the term 'flight', it implies specific connotations and imagery which are at odds with the term 'pilot' as used to steer large ships. And even then, a 'pilot', or helmsman, or sailing master, were non-commissioned until relatively recently ( in terms of entire rw naval history ). Also, in the rw Navy I was in, the helmsman was usually an enlisted rating under the command of an officer. The officer rarely, if ever, steered the ship himself.