Merchant Prince Trade Rules Question

[david.wendelken]

Hi,

I went over the Merchant Prince trade rules governing speculative cargo cost and price last week, and figured out prices between a few of the planets that interested me.

Last night I downloaded a trade spreadsheet from this site that is supposed to calculate the same numbers.

Our numbers differ, quite dramatically.

Which means one or both of us is wrong.

Would someone be kind enough to detail the pricing between these two Spinward Marches planets?

Heroni/Mora -> Byret/Mora

Byret/Mora -> Heroni/Mora

That will give me a heads up on where, if anywhere, I went wrong in the calculation.

 

[aramis]

Byret 0103 B485697 5 Rich. Agricultural. Non-industrial. G
Mora 0704 AA99AC7 F 2 Industrial. [Hi] Subsector Capital. G
Heroni 0101 B6449B9 8 Industrial [Hi] G

Buying at Heroni (Noting that S3 lacks the Hi indicator
KCr4 (Base) -KCr1 (Industrial) +KCr0.8 (TL 8) +0 (Starport B) = KCr3.8
Multiply that by the result of the Actual Value Table (A result hereafter labeled as AVTR) to get purchase price. Note as Tons Cargo TL8 In Hi Cr____/Ton

Selling that at Byret
{KCr5 (base) +1 (In @ Ag) +1 (In @ Ri) +1 (Hi @ Ri) } * {0.1 * (8 (Source)-5 (Dest)}
8 * (0.1 * -3)= KCr7.7 *AVTR


Buying at Byret
KCr4 (base) +1 (Ri) -1 (Ag) +1 (NI) + 0.5 (TL) = KCr5.5 * AVTR
label Ton Cargo TL5 Ri Ag Ni Cr_____/Ton

Selling at Mora
KCr5 + 1 (Ag @ In) +1 (Ag @ Hi) +1 (Ni @ In) = KCr8 + 0.1(5 (source) - 15 (Dest))
KCr8+(-1)=KCr7 * AVTR

 

[McPerth]

Byret 0103 B485697 5 Rich. Agricultural. Non-industrial. G
Mora 0704 AA99AC7 F 2 Industrial. [Hi] Subsector Capital. G
Heroni 0101 B6449B9 8 Industrial [Hi] G

Buying at Heroni (Noting that S3 lacks the Hi indicator
KCr4 (Base) -KCr1 (Industrial) +KCr0.8 (TL 8) +0 (Starport B) = KCr3.8
Multiply that by the result of the Actual Value Table (A result hereafter labeled as AVTR) to get purchase price. Note as Tons Cargo TL8 In Hi Cr____/Ton

Selling that at Byret
{KCr5 (base) +1 (In @ Ag) +1 (In @ Ri) +1 (Hi @ Ri) } * {0.1 * (8 (Source)-5 (Dest)}
8 * (0.1 * -3)= KCr7.7 *AVTR


Buying at Byret
KCr4 (base) +1 (Ri) -1 (Ag) +1 (NI) + 0.5 (TL) = KCr5.5 * AVTR
label Ton Cargo TL5 Ri Ag Ni Cr_____/Ton

Selling at Mora
KCr5 + 1 (Ag @ In) +1 (Ag @ Hi) +1 (Ni @ In) = KCr8 + 0.1(5 (source) - 15 (Dest))
KCr8+(-1)=KCr7 * AVTR

I'm afraid there's an error in Aramis numbers:

As the rules stand, the TL difference modifier is:[TL(source)-TL(market)]*10%, and the examples are TL6 source to TL15 market is -90%, and TL 15 goods at a TL1 market are +140%.

So, as I understand them, the selling at Byret formula would be:

{KCr5 (base) +1 (In @ Ag) +1 (In @ Ri) +1 (Hi @ Ri) } * [1 + {0.1 * (8 (Source)-5 (Dest)}]
8 * 0.7= KCr5.6 *AVTR

While the sell at Mora would be:

KCr5 + 1 (Ag @ In) +1 (Ag @ Hi) +1 (Ni @ In) = KCr8 * [1+ 0.1(5 (source) - 15 (Dest))]
KCr8 * 0 =KCr0 * AVTR (as you see, not a good busines)

See that there are quite a result not too believable, IMHO. Mora's goods would be:

Cargo cost:
KCr4 -1 (Hi) -1 (ind) -1 (Starport A) + 15*0.1 = KCr2.5 * AVTR (see that if it was Glisten, who is an asteroid belt, instead of Mora, this cost will be even lower, just KCr1.5)

Selling those same goods to Byret:

Cargo price:
KCr5 +1 (Hi to Ri) +1 (In to Ri) +1 (In to Ag) +1 (In to Ni) + (15*5)+ 10%, so KCr 9 + 100% = KCr18 + AVRT.

So, the benefit for such trip is (at average, with an AVRT of 100%) is KCr15.5 per ton. If I have a ship capable of carring 100 tons of cargo, the benefit would be MCr1.55 per trip, yet you'll travel at a loss on the return (if you don't make call at an intermediate port).

 

[McPerth]

Let’s see a more extreme case of Merchant Prince (and MT trade system, for what’s worth, as it’s a carbon paper copy of MP):

We buy cargo at Glisten (SM 2036, A000986-F, Hi, Na, In, As). Cost is:

KCr 4 -1 (Hi) -1 (In) -1 (As) -1 (stA) + 15*0.1 = KCr 1.5

We jump to Aki (SM 2035, B443987-9, Hi, In, Po)

We sell our cargo for:

KCr5 +1 (Hi to Hi) +1 (As to In)+1 (In to Hi) +1 (In to In) +1 (In to Po) + (15-9)*10%, so KCr10 + 60%= KCr16 (benefit KCr14.5/ton)

There, we buy cargo at a cost of:

KCr4 -1 (Hi) -1 (In) -1 (Po) + 9*0.1 = KCr 1.9

Returning to Glisten, we sell them for:

KCr5 +1 (Hi to Hi) +1 (In to Hi) +1 (In to In) + 9-15*0.1, so 8 – 60%= KCr4.8 (benefit KCr2.9/ton).

We have a Fat Trader (cargo 200 ton) at Glisten, move to Aki with our hold full of Glisten’s goods (no matter what) and sell them at a benefit of KCr2900, then return with our hold full at a benefit of KCr580, so we net MCr3.48 per round trip. And I didn't count any passenger...

Assuming one jump per two weeks, this will be one round trip a month. Discounting the cost of 80 fuel tons (per round trip), KCr40 (why use unrefined fuel?), and crew salaries of KCr20 (Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Medic and Steward), our monthly benefit is MCr3.42. In less than 3 years we can buy a brand new fat trader (MCr 101.03) without financing.

 

[SanDragon]

Your crew has to suffer with a smelly old air recycling system?

 

[david.wendelken]

Here's my take on it.

The two planets in question are Heroni and Byret, both in the Mora subsector.

Trade classifications:

Heroni: HI IN
Byret: RI AG NI

Tech level:

Heroni: 8
Byret: 6

Starports:

Heroni: B
Byret: B

Ignoring the use of Brokers.

Purchase goods in Heroni:

4000 {base cost} - 1000 {HI} - 1000 {IN} + ( 8 {Tech Lvl} * 100 ) + 0 {Starport} = 2800 {Standard Cost}.

I did not see any mention in the rules of using the Actual Value Table Result in determining the cost of cargo on its source world.

Sell those same goods in Byret:

5000 {base price}
+ 1000 {HI->RI}
+ 1000 {IN->AG}
+ 1000 {IN->NI}
+ 1000 {IN->RI}
+ ( 5000 {base price} * ( 8 {Tech Level Heroni} - 6 {Tech Level Byret}) * .10 {Tech Level difference multiplier}
+ 0 {Starport}
= 10000 {Standard Price}

Multiply 10000 * Actual Value Table Result for Actual Selling Price.

Comments?

 

[McPerth]

Sell those same goods in Byret:

5000 {base price}
+ 1000 {HI->RI}
+ 1000 {IN->AG}
+ 1000 {IN->NI}
+ 1000 {IN->RI}
+ ( 5000 {base price} * ( 8 {Tech Level Heroni} - 6 {Tech Level Byret}) * .10 {Tech Level difference multiplier}
+ 0 {Starport}
= 10000 {Standard Price}

Multiply 10000 * Actual Value Table Result for Actual Selling Price.

Comments?

As I understand rules, price should be (5000+4000)*1.2 (2(TL difference*10% addition), so 10800.

See that in page 37 chacklist, the TL modifiers are after the trade price modifiers. The example in page 41 (last paragraph under Computing Base Price of Goods) also applies the TL multiplier after adding them.

EDIT: all page references are from Merchant Prince, as it is in the FFE's The Clasic Books.

 

[McPerth]

Your crew has to suffer with a smelly old air recycling system?

And be quite hungry, you're right, I forgot to subtract the life support costs (KCr 10/jump), and, for what's worth, also the berthing costs (about KCr0.1/week).

I also failed in that the fuel needed is 40 tons/jump, plus 10 per 4 weeks for PP, so, the jump needs for a round trip is 90 tons, not 80 as I counted, so add KCr 5 to montly expenses.

So, benefit after those computings (and yet not counting any passengers you can take), is "only" MCr3.4548 instead of MCr3.48.

Anyway, as the ship is streamlined and may skip fuel, we should assume it has purification plant, so, we can buy unrefined fuel and purify it, saving KCr3.6/month.

And, being among two Hi worlds, you're likely to have you passenger staterooms full, and that would add (after discounting their life support) KCr 64 (8 staterooms) for high passengers and KCr8.1 for low passengers.

So, average benefit may be up to MCr 3.6075 per month. The time to buy a brand new Fat Trader without financing is about 30 months (2 years and a half), counting the time for yearly maintenance.

And if you have a broker among your crew, benefits may skyrocket...

 

[MCEvans]

Remember that this is a sub so, 50% of profits go to the sub holder.
Unless this is crew purchased cargo as opposed to freight.

 

[McPerth]

Remember that this is a sub so, 50% of profits go to the sub holder.
Unless this is crew purchased cargo as opposed to freight.

The fact that the ship is a subsized trader doesn't mean you cannot buy it without subsides, and of course I'm talking about cargo for speculative trade, not freight. Freight is at flat Cr1000 per ton transport fee.

You could even charter one such Fat Traders (at a cost of Cr900 per cargo ton plus Cr9000 per stateroom IIRC, so KCr252 per jump, KCr504 per month) and still make huge profits, allowing you to buy your own ship without financing in less than 3 years even counting this expense too.

I guess you've guessed already I have MP (at least its trade system, the advanced CharGen for merchats is quite good) not in too high value. In fact I think its trade system is one of the worst in Traveller (and, by extension, probably the worst part of MT, not even worth being salvaged). Of course, that's my opinion, not holy writ.

 

[Icosahedron]

Would that be my Trade Sheet?
Some folks have already pointed out a couple of errors with it.

It was designed as a simple aid for a game I ran, then someone requested I post it here. It was never exhaustively playtested.

I made it so long ago I can't remember what I did now, but if you find a specific error with it I'd be pleased if you could post your finding as concisely as possible in a comment following the spreadsheet, and one day I'll go through them and make corrections.

Assuming you're the one who's right, of course.

 

[MCEvans]

You could even charter one such Fat Traders (at a cost of Cr900 per cargo ton plus Cr9000 per stateroom IIRC, so KCr252 per jump, KCr504 per month) and still make huge profits, allowing you to buy your own ship without financing in less than 3 years even counting this expense too.

I agree.
The main point I was (sloppily) making is that you need to keep the two funds separate - an Operating Fund to cover those expenses (fuel, LS, payments) and as TTA called it a Shadow Fund for for such things as crew bonuses, purchase of new ship (or same ship sooner) and other such expenses that adventurers rack up. :devil:

 

[McPerth]

I agree.
The main point I was (sloppily) making is that you need to keep the two funds separate - an Operating Fund to cover those expenses (fuel, LS, payments) and as TTA called it a Shadow Fund for for such things as crew bonuses, purchase of new ship (or same ship sooner) and other such expenses that adventurers rack up. :devil:

And never forget what I read somewhere (I think it was the Fat Trader module for MT) about many a ship's captain just buying the cargo space of its own ship in order to carry speculative cargo. If so, the cost for him is only KCr100 per jump (as the subsizer gets only 50% of the revenue).

 

[Hal]

If I recall correctly, one of the problems with the Merchant Prince trade rules, was the fact that raw materials had a value fluctuation based on the TL of the world producing the raw materials as contrasted with the TL of the planet hungry for raw materials. This was never rectified until the publication of either KNIGHTFALL or HARD TIMES (I can't recall which). The value of one ton of copper should remain the same whether produced on a high tech world or a low tech world. Granted, the impurities aspect of metals from low tech worlds might lower their value to a degree, but not to where it is relatively worthless to a world starving for raw materials for its high tech manufacturing concerns.

 

[McPerth]

If I recall correctly, one of the problems with the Merchant Prince trade rules, was the fact that raw materials had a value fluctuation based on the TL of the world producing the raw materials as contrasted with the TL of the planet hungry for raw materials. This was never rectified until the publication of either KNIGHTFALL or HARD TIMES (I can't recall which). The value of one ton of copper should remain the same whether produced on a high tech world or a low tech world. Granted, the impurities aspect of metals from low tech worlds might lower their value to a degree, but not to where it is relatively worthless to a world starving for raw materials for its high tech manufacturing concerns.

That was one of the problems Knightfall partially fixed.

Others where the fact that you can always sell your cargo (even if you want to sell 1000 tons of anything in a pop 1 planet) and fully changed the TL effects, depending on the cargo you tried to sell (holovideos would be of low use, and so value, to a TL 3 planet).

Even so, it didn't change the fact that speculation was nearly risk free in MP, making it (IMHO) a very flawled system.

I was amazed (in the negative sense) that this so flawled system was kept not only in MT (whith the minor fixings from Knightfall and the very good, but unnoficial, AFAIK, variant from Don McKyney, that you can find in the links DonM has in his signature), but it was also kept throughout TNE and T4.

Note that all the cryticisms I give to MP are only about its speculative trade system, I like the rest of the book (once the errata about geting Pilot as a free trader crew is applied).

 

[Hal]

Ahhh. The risk free aspect.

Part of the problem of having a generalized economy system, is the fact that there is no detailed economy system. I know that sounds like a tautology, but bear with me a moment...

If a world has a need for a given material, say, copper - the need to purchase said copper would be there. If there wasn't a need for copper, then there would be required some game mechanism for which the GM - if he wanted to be impartial and fair, that kept track of such a thing. The problem is - tracking an economy is rather complex to begin with, and a viable trade game would be a game in its own right. If you can get your hands on a copy of METAGAMING TRAILBLAZER, you might have something you could enjoy for your game sessions. However, it would need to be modified for use with TRAVELLER, and I've never tried to handle that. I recall showing it to my Economics Professor back in the day when it was in print and new, and his comment was "That's an interesting game."

In any event, that bit about making it risk free is something that perhaps could have been fixed with a simple "trade skill" roll, where one has to roll against trade skill with the plus modifiers or minus modifiers for the type of cargo and the type of market - and then having to meet a target number or higher in order to sell a given cargo. You could also for instance, utilize a modifier based on population rating equal to 1/2 the pop rating above/below a given threshhold level.

Just a thought.

 

[david.wendelken]

If I recall correctly, one of the problems with the Merchant Prince trade rules, was the fact that raw materials had a value fluctuation based on the TL of the world producing the raw materials as contrasted with the TL of the planet hungry for raw materials. This was never rectified until the publication of either KNIGHTFALL or HARD TIMES (I can't recall which). The value of one ton of copper should remain the same whether produced on a high tech world or a low tech world. Granted, the impurities aspect of metals from low tech worlds might lower their value to a degree, but not to where it is relatively worthless to a world starving for raw materials for its high tech manufacturing concerns.

Yes and no. The higher the tech level, the more exacting the specifications for materials and manufactured goods are. Lower level tech worlds may simply not be able to machine parts to the level of precision that higher tech worlds need.

The same is true for raw materials. Unless the high tech world receiving the copper has the necessary industry to refine it properly, low tech copper with impurities in it would be worthless. If you've been buying high-tech copper that's exactly what you want, why spend millions to build a factory to purify substandard copper?

 

[david.wendelken]

Would that be my Trade Sheet?
Some folks have already pointed out a couple of errors with it.

It was designed as a simple aid for a game I ran, then someone requested I post it here. It was never exhaustively playtested.

I made it so long ago I can't remember what I did now, but if you find a specific error with it I'd be pleased if you could post your finding as concisely as possible in a comment following the spreadsheet, and one day I'll go through them and make corrections.

Assuming you're the one who's right, of course.

I believe it is. Thanks for the hard work on it!

Look back at the example I posted of purchasing on Heroni and selling on Byret. I computed a 2800 price on Heroni and you computed a 6800 price. The difference is that I subtracted 2000 from the base cost and you added 2000. Industrial and Hi Population worlds produce goods at a lower cost, not a higher one.

The spreadsheet calculates a sales price of 6000 per ton at 100% of value and no broker. Our example showed the price should be 10,800 per ton. I'm not familiar with the function being used in the price formula, so I can't say where the problem is.

 

[david.wendelken]

The Market Price Table portion of the spreadsheet isn't pointing to the correct locations to determine the source and destination modifiers.

 

[david.wendelken]

I've uploaded a modified spreadsheet to the files section. Notes on changes are in this thread: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=404099#post404099