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Fritz_Brown

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Insectoid races have long been a standard in SciFi. However, they tend to be copies in some fashion of terran critters - arthropods, to be specific.

I am looking to do an exoskeleton race, possibly with multiple leg/arm-pairs, but maybe avoid the insects-in-rubber-suits phenomenon. Can this be done?

With an exoskeleton, can you make shapes other than arthropods? How might this work?

Oh, and this race needs to be smart and capable of building things like jump engines.

Thanks for any ideas you have.
 
Insectoid races have long been a standard in SciFi. However, they tend to be copies in some fashion of terran critters - arthropods, to be specific.

I am looking to do an exoskeleton race, possibly with multiple leg/arm-pairs, but maybe avoid the insects-in-rubber-suits phenomenon. Can this be done?

With an exoskeleton, can you make shapes other than arthropods? How might this work?

Oh, and this race needs to be smart and capable of building things like jump engines.

Thanks for any ideas you have.

If you can find a copy of H. Beam Piper's Uller Uprising, the Ullers should fit what you want very nicely. Upright bipedal exoskeleton with 4 manipulative appendages. Does not have the same metabolism of humans, so cannot consume the same food.
 
Ever see the Big Bang Theory episode where they are discussing giant ants? Sheldon's reply is quite telling.

Unless your exoskeleton race is native to a low g world they are going to be very small. Or alternatively their exoskeleton has to be made from a much stronger material than any living organism here on Earth can produce.

Which means you also get to add null grav modules or powered armour to allow them to move around in standard human gravity conditions.
 
Check out Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Commonwealth books for the Thranx. I can't recall if he explained their size or simply ignore the realities. But they are a fascinating species even if they aren't possible.


Hans
 
Check out Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Commonwealth books for the Thranx. I can't recall if he explained their size or simply ignore the realities. But they are a fascinating species even if they aren't possible.


Hans

They are also physically mantids, with a near-human culture.

In other words, man-in-bug-suit aliens.
 
[The Thranx] are also physically mantids, with a near-human culture.

In other words, man-in-bug-suit aliens.

<Shrug> That wouldn't bother me even if I agreed with you. Aliens that are comprehensible enough to be characters in stories are by their very nature open to accusations of being men-in-bug-suits. Truly alien aliens are natural forces, not characters.

The Thranx are complementary to humans; their strengths cover human weaknesses and their weaknesses are covered by human strengths. It is, AFAIK, a unique sort of relationship. There are stories of cultures with multiple alien races where each has its own strength, but the duality of Humanx culture I haven't encountered anywhere else. I find it an interesting variation.


Hans
 
I should have said "man-in-'recognizable-bug'-suits" - they are pretty much exactly what Fritz is asking to avoid.

I'll recommend Doohan and Stirling's Flight Engineer series. The "bad guys" are clearly xeno-arthropods, but have hybrid skeletons, and aren't quite recognizable bugs. They seem to be well thought out scorpion-with-head critters, and do have considerably less human behavior than the Thranx.
 
As I understand it, the arthropod's six legs are such because they are more efficient. Six legs means keeping three down - your basic three-legged stool - while moving the other three forward to become your next base. Easy-peasy, doesn't take much in the way of brains to control it - and there ain't much brain to an insect, so it works for them. Less is awkward (watch how a mantis has to move in order to free those forelegs for its infamous grab). More is doable but means added investment in body - without an obvious reward, the six-legger has an advantage.

Arachnids have that obvious reward. They follow a different path: 8 legs. Workable - four-legged chair - and it left them in a good position to switch to the six-legged gait and evolve two legs into other uses. For the six-leggers on the other hand, freeing up the forelegs involved coming up with a new way to get around (ex.: grasshoppers).

And then there are the wings: insects have six legs, but they frequently manage to evolve a bit of that carapace into a rather effective flying appendage. Doesn't scale up well, but very effective on their scale.

Then there are the many-legs. Simple architecture, simple gait - a ripple of many legs on either side of a long narrow body. They've held onto their ecological niche for that reason, but there isn't a lot of potential for improvement and it doesn't scale up well, so they're never going to get much bigger than they already are - although there are some rather impressively big examples of them.

When fish crawled up onto land and started their evolutionary bit, a new gait was established: tetrapod. This is a "falling" gait: keep two legs under you and shove forward with them while swinging the other two around to catch you, then repeat. Time and circumstance saw that evolve into some marvelously effective tetrapodal gaits - and some of novel departures (Us and kangaroos, for example).

When contemplating your new species, first think of it in terms of mechanics: How do they get around? How do they move from point A to point B? Two legs? Four legs? Six legs? More? Most likely their legs are under them - that seems to be the most energy-efficient way for larger species.

Next, ask how they managed to evolve a set of manipulative appendages? Humans evolved from four leggers who learned to climb trees and then came back down. Others with roughly similar appendages - not necessarily acquired in quite the same way - include rats, mice, chipmunks and racoons. There are many examples of dinosaurs who depend on a tail to maintain a see-saw kind of balance that frees up their forelegs for other needs - some of whom evolved those forelimbs into dandy wings. And, the kangaroo found it more effective to bound on two legs than to run on four - though to be honest they really didn't take full advantage of the opportunities that presented for their forelimbs.

A six-legger is not inconceivable - if the first lobe-finned fish had had a couple more lobes, we could look more like centaurs than like apes with exceptional balance. Eight legs offers clear possibilities: you can free up four limbs by adopting a four-legged gait, leaving you with the possibility of a centaur-form with four arms, or a form with forearms and a set of arms "amidships", or a form with arms both fore and aft.

Consider Mike's observation and make the carapace vestigial. Evolution gave them an inner skeleton to help support weight and allow larger growth, and evolution of larger forms favored the inner skeleton: the outer carapace became a carapace-and-hide affair for increased flexibility and growth, then the carapace grew smaller and smaller as species grew larger and larger until the various species evolved to that form have hides that are more like rhino hide with small vestigial studs of carapace scattered on them.

Now here's a wierd form: 8-limbed, four legs with pairs of arms forward and aft, a head squarely in the center of the "back", excretory orifices on the "belly" centered between the four legs. The head turns through more than 180 degrees, so an outside observer may not be able to tell which end is the front and which is the back - if the body is squarish, he may not be able to tell the sides from the front either. Consider multiple eyes offering 360 degree vision. Now you have a sapient with a truly strange philosophical view, from the human point of view: where we tend to view life in terms of going forward and backward, they tend to view life as a plane with many equally acceptable directions.

Or, you could eschew limbs altogether and just design something like a telekinetic intelligent clam. :D
 
One note - in doing some train-of-consciousness research the other day, I decided their chitin was a little different - a couple of minerals mixed into the material (looking for my notes, and I can't find them, dangit). That should help with any structural integrity issues based on size. But, I like Carlobrand's ideas, too. I think a hybrid exo-endo-skeleton will work. Now I just have to find those notes..........
 
@Carlobrand:
Arachnids range from 4 to 10 working limbs, plus 2 mouthpart limbs.
Nominally,
1 pair chelicerae
1 pair pedipalps/pincers
4 pairs walking legs
1 pair spinner palps

@Fritz
Don't forget that the chitin needn't be a sheet in cross-section. It can have internal ribbing, as well, as the beasts get larger, even almost like a comb extruded upward.

Or, the larger critters might have more segments that have fused, but still have the chitin as much larger internal "bones" of chitin...

And remember - chitin protein is actually pretty tough polymer, and rather leathery - but it's when combined with Calcium Carbonate, we get the hard shells. Having some areas subject to compression being more carbonaceous means better compressive strength.

General
Just because there is an exoskeleton as skin doesn't mean there can't be an internal skeleton component as well...
 
All wonderful inputs. I think there's no way to avoid full arthropod mode if I use an exoskeleton - at least not if it's a fairly complete exoskeleton. These folks will still have an unusual exoskeleton - hybrid, or honeycomb, or something - but they will be recognizably "bugs".

Perhaps the players I am recruiting will go ... crusading and meet these beings and another race. Then I can post the info on them here. :) (Until then, I want to keep them a surprise.)

I will say the chitin is much higher in carbon than normal, and also uses cobalt. Their blood is cobalt based (vs iron).

The *other* aliens in that cluster are very nasty, indeed.
 
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All wonderful inputs. I think there's no way to avoid full arthropod mode if I use an exoskeleton - at least not if it's a fairly complete exoskeleton. These folks will still have an unusual exoskeleton - hybrid, or honeycomb, or something - but they will be recognizably "bugs".

Perhaps the players I am recruiting will go ... crusading and meet these beings and another race. Then I can post the info on them here. :) (Until then, I want to keep them a surprise.)

I will say the chitin is much higher in carbon than normal, and also uses cobalt. Their blood is cobalt based (vs iron).

The *other* aliens in that cluster are very nasty, indeed.

Coboglobin! They bleed ... yellow?
 
And, the kangaroo found it more effective to bound on two legs than to run on four - though to be honest they really didn't take full advantage of the opportunities that presented for their forelimbs.

Yet.
:D
I made a Gamma World character back in 1985 that was a mutated (actually genetically-modified before the "big blow-up") gray 'Roo... with manipulative hands on those fore-limbs.
 
Just throwing it out there, everyone seems to be defining insects ala earth! With all the different systems out there, there are hundreds of different types of planets and evolution or grandfather design dose not need to follow our rules.
It is possible to mix different types of locomotion, here are a few ideas
Suckers - low grav worlds or ones with high silica content ie glassy plains.
Mixed mode - a tripod, one squat anchored foot with centipied style legs, and two front legs with manipulators, can crawl while using stuff or can lean forward to increase speed and stability.
 
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