very very true....
OTU Only: Fleet Organization
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
very very true....
See that the description of the 154th BatDron given in CT:SMC (page 39) is:
- 1 Battle tender
- 7 Batle Riders
- 7 Escorts
- 10 Fighter squadrons (20 fighters each)
Transports and scouts would be (I guess) attached as needed.
I guess troop transport needs are quite version dependent.
In CT, to transport them in low berths is unacceptable (as it would mean about 8% casualties before they reach destination), but in MT, where low berth death is something exceptional (though some damage is not), it would be prefectly aceptable, and a good option when you have to move whole armies.
See that this saves 1.5 dtons and Cr 1900 in life support per trooper and jump (so, assuming 127 men per company and keeping officers awaken (let's say 120 of them in low brths), it saves 180 dtons of shipping and Cr 228000 per jump).
In MgT, the risk, while told about, is not specified, and I don't know enough of other versions to talk about them.
Last edited:
Not really sure what the point of escorts are, the game doesn't fight ships that way. Looks great on Fleet Day, but that's not how combat manifests itself.
Escorts can act as a screen, if you use Book 5, but they tend to not fair well against capital ships.
In truth, none of the games are particularly good at "combined arms" when it comes to fleet combat. It's very difficult for ships to support each other in any of the canon ship combat systems.
Escorts can act as a screen, if you use Book 5, but they tend to not fair well against capital ships.
In truth, none of the games are particularly good at "combined arms" when it comes to fleet combat. It's very difficult for ships to support each other in any of the canon ship combat systems.
And there it goes, into a black hole after a brilliant flash of light!
I would think that even the inflicting of wounds on revival still creates casualties and reduces your fighting strength, and may not be acceptable.
Most units could go into a theater of operations plus 10-15% in supernumeraries...? on the other hand ... you have that Lt who screwed up so many times... trip oh no I unplugged him... ( whistling off into the distance)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
As regards to light combatants, I'm working out to see how they'll get integrated in a general battle.
Protecting the tanker and transports from the fighter swarms.and enemy escorts maybe....
You need to broaden your view of HG/TCS away from just being a tactical combat game, at which it is so-so (as detailed extensively elsewhere). HG/TCS is better viewed as a strategic warfare game which of necessity requires a combat resolution system. Ideally this combat resolution system should result in gamer behaviours like avoiding placing escorts in front of angry BBs, as their contribution to the end result is negligible and their demise almost certain.
By utilising escorts away from the main fleets, for example raiding commerce, you force the opponent to direct resources away from their own main fleets. If their navy has limited escort class ships, it is inherently designed to dominate one system (perhaps a handful) at a time. The so-called "Alpha-strike" fleet. Meantime a fleet with many escorts can be many places, cheaply. This works because they will refuse to engage in a "stand-up fight", preferring instead to do economic damage until the political imperative (to the cries of "cowards", "not fighting fair", "our brave innocent merchant fleet", the brutalized citizens of xyz") on the other side forces the alpha-strike main fleets to disperse and respond.
So one tactic is to use escorts and attempt to influence and perhaps win, large areas of space or concentrate your forces and drive for the capital, hoping to get there before the economic and political fall-out forces a withdrawal.
HG/TCS doesn't emulate economic warfare and its political consequences particularly well (left up to the ref?), aside from the abstract 100points of weapons causing surrender rule. But it does reward using escorts as pickets in systems and hexes you are interested in and setting up communication links. An expensive task if you are only using BBs.
For example, the Imperiums use of 400tn Patrol Cruisers acting as trip-wires for the fleet and waving the flag along the borders, enabling main fleets to be concentrated and respond from a safe(ish) distance.
There are lots of variations, but essentially without escorts you lack many strategic options. Just don't waste the few escorts you have fighting main fleet battles.
Just my 2Cr, YMMV.
Well done..
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The Imperium Navy has supposedly a balanced composition of warships.
The Solomani Navy seems to lack major combatants, ie cruisers. Since they seem to be using the tonnage to add more capital ships and infiltrate sleeper ones into the Imperium.
The Solomani Navy seems to lack major combatants, ie cruisers. Since they seem to be using the tonnage to add more capital ships and infiltrate sleeper ones into the Imperium.
The damage produced by low berth revival in MT uses to be quite light, healable in a day or two (there's some risk of heavier damage, but the risk is quite low). And key personnel (I said officers, but maybe some others) would travel awake.
If you have (let's say) 2000 dtons of troop transport shipping, would you prefer to carry 4000 men, assuming some of them (about 5-8%, assuming decent medics) would be lightly ill the first week (probably less) or to carry 1000 men that would arrive safe?
And in the first case, your life support cost would be KCr 400 per jump, while in the second, it would be MCr 2 per jump...
Last edited:
Theophilus
SOC-13
Part of the problem is canon is all over the place, depending on version.
Some "canon" squadrons:
V&V
Cruron 4221 (16 ships)
-2 Heavy Cruisers
-1 Strike Cruiser
-3 Destroyers
-4 Close Escorts
-6 Auxillaries/Couriers
High Passage 5
810th Fleet (34 ships)
Batron 490 (14 ships)
-1 Uzshu Battleship
-1 Kokirraks Battleship
-3 Gormandoacy Destroyers
-3 Chrysanthemum DE's
-6 Fleet Couriers
Cruron 87 (20 ships)
-8 Sarmonocci Light Cruisers
-3 Gormandoacy Destroyers
-6 Chrysanthemum DE's
-3 Workhorse Ordinance Carriers
SM Campaign
Batron 154 (8 ships, 7 riders)
-1 Lurenti Tender/ 7 Nolikian Riders
-7 PF Sloan Escorts
200 fighters
High Passage 5
Cruron? (5 Ships)
-1 Tempest Cruiser
-1 Gormandoay Destroyer
-2 Gazelle CE
-1 Scout
Clearly Squadron size and composition varies across canon/decanonized sources.
Some "canon" squadrons:
V&V
Cruron 4221 (16 ships)
-2 Heavy Cruisers
-1 Strike Cruiser
-3 Destroyers
-4 Close Escorts
-6 Auxillaries/Couriers
High Passage 5
810th Fleet (34 ships)
Batron 490 (14 ships)
-1 Uzshu Battleship
-1 Kokirraks Battleship
-3 Gormandoacy Destroyers
-3 Chrysanthemum DE's
-6 Fleet Couriers
Cruron 87 (20 ships)
-8 Sarmonocci Light Cruisers
-3 Gormandoacy Destroyers
-6 Chrysanthemum DE's
-3 Workhorse Ordinance Carriers
SM Campaign
Batron 154 (8 ships, 7 riders)
-1 Lurenti Tender/ 7 Nolikian Riders
-7 PF Sloan Escorts
200 fighters
High Passage 5
Cruron? (5 Ships)
-1 Tempest Cruiser
-1 Gormandoay Destroyer
-2 Gazelle CE
-1 Scout
Clearly Squadron size and composition varies across canon/decanonized sources.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I solved this problem by having escorts assigned to capital ships during the decision step.
When you present your capital ship to be fired upon you also move your escorts along with them. (I use counters for each ship and put them on a card to move as a unit).
The firing player can elect to fire on the capital ship or the escorts, the escorts can use their weapons in defence of whatever the target is.
Well, see that's the point.
You can have all of the "canonical" fleets you want, but if the fleets don't work, according to the mechanics of the GAME, then they don't work. And you don't build them, fly them, or play them.
The dichotomy of Big Ship universe of Book 5 vs the Little Ship universe of Book 2 doesn't help either. A 400dt SDB is simply not an effective combatant in a Big Ship universe. Neither is a 300dt Close Escort. They're not threatening nor helpful. They can't protect anything, and can't hurt anything.
They can certainly be effective as a utility ship, just like a Ships Boat is. If you want to picket one in a system as a scout so it can jump out at the first sign of trouble, then great. But then it's not really escorting anything, all alone in the dark, is it?
So, you can have as expansive of a view as you like, but when the dice hit the table, all that matters is the actual mechanics of combat as described in the game rules.
And in that view, those ships, and their role, aren't really effective at all.
I was asked to post here to comment on the debate.
Grand Fleet/Sector Fleet is pre-T5SS (especially Marc's increases to specific sectors). What I have considered is that Grand Fleet is fleet organization from 630 to 1000, and Rebellion Sourcebook is 1115.
Which basically means you can use elements of both and still be canonical.
Both GF/SF and RSB have canon problems.
All of which is my way of saying, "I miss Hans".
Grand Fleet/Sector Fleet is pre-T5SS (especially Marc's increases to specific sectors). What I have considered is that Grand Fleet is fleet organization from 630 to 1000, and Rebellion Sourcebook is 1115.
Which basically means you can use elements of both and still be canonical.
Both GF/SF and RSB have canon problems.
All of which is my way of saying, "I miss Hans".
Of those, only V&V and SMC are canon
While I like the house rule Mike suggests (very simple, stolen...), the point you are making is that small ships are inconsequential in big ship battles and die easily. Which appears to be reasonable. Using escorts in the manner suggested by Mike is only effective when defending your capital ship against other escorts nuisance attacks. They can do very little to defend against the spinals and massed factor 9 missiles mounted on capital ships.
I have used a variant of Mikes rule, not because it changes this dynamic of escorts being squashed by capital ships hundreds or thousands of times their size, but because it adds flavour and options. However it doesn't change the outcome of main fleet battles, only capital ships can do that.
So why do combat fleets need escorts and small ships? Simply because they ensure the capital ships they protect are in pristine condition ready for main fleet combat. They take part in the many small ship actions that occur in a fleets life. If the capital ship was directly involved it inevitably will suffer minor damage swatting knats, which is not their job. A fleet may never take part in main fleet combat, but if it does its capital ships have to be on-station (not in the repair yards) and in pristine combat condition.
Touching back on Mikes suggestion, in most battles a fleet will take part in, the capital ships will stay in the reserve. They will typically only come out to play if the opposition has a capital ship or if the escorts need a hand and the Captain feels that help is worth the inevitable Court of Inquiry should his capital ship suffer damage.
My 2cr, YMMV
