OTU Only: Fleet Organization

[aramis]

Historically the term dreadnaught described a new class of battleship. The next generation of battleships were always referred to as battleships.

It is a sci-fi trope that dreadnaught class battleships are your top of the line, latest super weapon.

There is a game - possibly one of the Traveller boardgames - where the dreadnaught is the class below battleship.

In S:9 all of the so called dreadnaughts (Tigress etc) have the code BB.

That game is Star Fleet Battles. SFB sizes:
BB, DNH, DN, DNL/BCH, BC/CA, CM, CL/DH, DD/FB/FFB, FF, Pol, Gunboat, Heavy Fighter, Fighter.
Note that SFB CVA's are DN's, CVB's are CAs, and CVLs are CL's and DD's.

Dreadnought itself remained a term for old Battleships up to about the end of WW1, but the "current" were always Battleships. Superdreadnought was the term for these WW I era "bigger than HMS Dreadnought Battleships."

Note that Steve Cole's other game, Starfire, uses: MN (Monitor), SD (Superdreadnought), BB, BC, CA, CL, DD, FF, CT (corvette), ES.

HMS Dreadnought and the "Class of 1905" and other pre- WWI large battleships were "Dreadnoughts" or "Dreadnought Type Battleships". The even larger WWI era were Super-Dreadnought Battleships. Then, we get the WWII era Battleships that make them all look small; I've handled USN documents referring to the "Dreadnought sized battleships in NSPH" (Naval Station Pearl Harbor.)

The term has different placement within the Battleship label depending upon when one is looking at. 1905-WW1, it's the big ones. Interwar, it's the medium. WWII and Korean War era, it's the small ones; anything new & smaller is a BC, and the Old and Smaller than HMS Dreadnought was no longer in service.

 

[Redcap]

Short version: Irrespective of armour, manoeuvre and jump ratings, that is a warship (not a station), larger than a 'conventional' battleship, with more guns, missiles, and subordinate carried craft (e.g. fighters), may be called a Dreadnought, or BA.

Is that about the size (sic) of it?

 

[savage]

Short version: Irrespective of armour, manoeuvre and jump ratings, that is a warship (not a station), larger than a 'conventional' battleship, with more guns, missiles, and subordinate carried craft (e.g. fighters), may be called a Dreadnought, or BA.

Is that about the size (sic) of it?

Actually "large gun" batteries. HMS Dreadnought moved away from the traditional gun deployments. It was the first to do it so they compared everything to it. The ship size was us 2000lbs above the next largest warship. A dreadnought construction cold war started before things went hot.

The name Dreadnought came to 1/2 a dozen British navy ships and probably a number of non-navy vessels.. I have a painting of the Tea Clipper Dreadnought in my living room not a big deal the before 1900s.

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought

In science fiction terms we seem to see people think its means bigger than a battleship but that would not be an accurate representation of the intent or we would be calling carriers dreadnoughts.

 

[Redcap]

Never knew that - thanks

All good to know, even if I decided that the BAs would be elsewhere for a bit

On other things - I forgot the ruddy SDBs. Always having had a soft spot for the Dragon Class (I'm a Dragon myself, born in 1964!), Here's the thinking:

While Naval Bases can rely on the protection of ships alongside, that's not always the case; in addition, there are places and vulnerable/critical points that cannot justify the full-time establishment of a perfectly good jump-equipped capital ship. Thus, the modern version of 20th Century old-Earth Torpedo Boats has evolved into the Imperium's many fleets of SDBs. They're used for system defence, police interdiction, customs patrols, and in times of war, concealed ambushes on unwary enemy shipping in 'stay-behind' strikes, much, much more besides.

The Dragon class is one of those tried and trusted workhorse designs that are found throughout the Imperium.

To cope with this, while it's not shown in any of the existing literature (that I can find, anyhow), I would imagine that they'd be organised into Defence Squadrons, or DefRons.

DefRon
6 x QPA
Based on Dragon-Class System Defence Boats (as found in LBB Sup #7, "Traders and Gunboats", pp 35-38 & 47 (stats)); Each DefSqn is made up of
12 Dragons + 1 x Jump Shuttle. Each DefSqn is further split into four flights of three Dragons for mutual defence and massed firepower.

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[aramis]

Actually "large gun" batteries. HMS Dreadnought moved away from the traditional gun deployments. It was the first to do it so they compared everything to it. The ship size was us 2000lbs above the next largest warship. A dreadnought construction cold war started before things went hot.[snip]
In science fiction terms we seem to see people think its means bigger than a battleship but that would not be an accurate representation of the intent or we would be calling carriers dreadnoughts.

Actually, in fiction, most authors pick either Dreadnoughts OR Battleships, but not both. SV Cole is interesting because he uses them both in both his major game lines. (He's no longer in charge of Starfire; he sold it to Marvin Lamb.)

mainstream Trek Fandom has long use the DN as the largest ship label in the fandom, with no battleships in sight. (And often, only the vaguest ideas of ship classes at all - usually dreadnoughts, CA's, CL's, an indistinguishable mush of FF/DD/Escorts, Tugs, and a second mire pit of tiny ships, warpshuttles and shuttlecraft with a variety of incompatible missions on the same frame..) And that has rubbed off into other uses.

The problem is, historically, the classifications aren't strictly clear; they're broad sweeps with overlaps. Traveller has upheld "general classifications" without hard and fast rules, and only one major work being overly clear in its presentation - that being MT's FSotSI.

And they tend to drift over time. Originally, destroyers were no smaller than frigates; now, frigates tend to be light cruisers in all but name. (See also the Burke Class "Frigates"...)

 

[savage]

Never knew that - thanks

All good to know, even if I decided that the BAs would be elsewhere for a bit

On other things - I forgot the ruddy SDBs. Always having had a soft spot for the Dragon Class (I'm a Dragon myself, born in 1964!), Here's the thinking:

While Naval Bases can rely on the protection of ships alongside, that's not always the case; in addition, there are places and vulnerable/critical points that cannot justify the full-time establishment of a perfectly good jump-equipped capital ship. Thus, the modern version of 20th Century old-Earth Torpedo Boats has evolved into the Imperium's many fleets of SDBs. They're used for system defence, police interdiction, customs patrols, and in times of war, concealed ambushes on unwary enemy shipping in 'stay-behind' strikes, much, much more besides.

The Dragon class is one of those tried and trusted workhorse designs that are found throughout the Imperium.

To cope with this, while it's not shown in any of the existing literature (that I can find, anyhow), I would imagine that they'd be organised into Defence Squadrons, or DefRons.

DefRon
6 x QPA
Based on Dragon-Class System Defence Boats (as found in LBB Sup #7, "Traders and Gunboats", pp 35-38 & 47 (stats)); Each DefSqn is made up of
12 Dragons + 1 x Jump Shuttle. Each DefSqn is further split into four flights of three Dragons for mutual defence and massed firepower.

Thoughts? Comments?

I hope your not a dragon. Those claws are rough on the laptop keyboards.

Back to your defenses, lets examine the jump boat.
The reasons to have a jump boat;
1. Follow vermin that has jumped
- Best to have the jump boat with the SDB
2. Bring a SDB to another system or deep space for deployment, sale
- Deploying it to another system
- Selling it to another world
- Swapping out a damaged SDB
3. Bring an SDB to a base with a repair facility, if needed.
- It would have to go get the SDB
4. Act as a local armed courier


As much as i like SDBs there are other options to implement;
1. Deploy a Griffin with the SDBs for jump pursuit?
2. A group of the SDBs could have jump boats for pursuit missions
3. SDBs are planetary navy vessels only. The 3I Navy uses other J type vessels.

 

[SanDragon]

Tucking the Command Cruiser in with the Battlecruiser and Cruiser because it's not much different than the other two, save... well... command?

 

[Redcap]

I hope your not a dragon. Those claws are rough on the laptop keyboards.

You have no idea, trust me. I had to have a titanium keyboard made, it was getting so repetitive replacing the plastic ones due to the deep scratches from the razor-sharp nails I have. And every time I sneezed? Yup, Injection mould materials, not a keyboard. Or a monitor, come to that. The darn thing had to be encased in superdense transparent steel with an N2 feed to keep it cool. That's like rockinghorse manure around here, lemme tell you. And don't even get me started on how ineffectual gaviscon is on molecular acid in the stomach. I tell you, it's not easy being sharp and green :rofl:

Back to your defenses, lets examine the jump boat.
The reasons to have a jump boat;
1. Follow vermin that has jumped
- Best to have the jump boat with the SDB
2. Bring a SDB to another system or deep space for deployment, sale
- Deploying it to another system
- Selling it to another world
- Swapping out a damaged SDB
3. Bring an SDB to a base with a repair facility, if needed.
- It would have to go get the SDB
4. Act as a local armed courier


As much as i like SDBs there are other options to implement;
1. Deploy a Griffin with the SDBs for jump pursuit?
2. A group of the SDBs could have jump boats for pursuit missions
3. SDBs are planetary navy vessels only. The 3I Navy uses other J type vessels.

Hmm. Interesting. I agree that SDBs are for local defence/interdiction only, rather than as mobile strategic platforms, but they do have their uses, primarily as defences for naval bases (jump-capable ships are often required elsewhere, after all), so there IS a place for them; there are seven Naval bases in the Moibin/Limon subsectors on the trailing edge of the Reft; they'd be required to be defended at all times, threat or no (security patrols, critical/vulnerable point defence, etc., and tying up a valuable jump-capable ship for those tasks makes no sense; thus: SDBs.

Further arguments for and against, please?

 

[savage]

Actually, in fiction, most authors pick either Dreadnoughts OR Battleships, but not both. SV Cole is interesting because he uses them both in both his major game lines. (He's no longer in charge of Starfire; he sold it to Marvin Lamb.)

The problem is, historically, the classifications aren't strictly clear; they're broad sweeps with overlaps. Traveller has upheld "general classifications" without hard and fast rules, and only one major work being overly clear in its presentation - that being MT's FSotSI.

And they tend to drift over time. Originally, destroyers were no smaller than frigates; now, frigates tend to be light cruisers in all but name. (See also the Burke Class "Frigates"...)

Your clarification is very accurate. But let's touch on it more. FSotSI is not canon now? Although, i would have assumed it would just be a reference to the design problems. (A few of which i like but need repair). From the point the HG rules showed 1,000,000 ton ship hulls and equipment, the "cat was out of the bag". A big ship universe was inevitable.

Due to mandates, the US military has reclassified vessels to build more vessels (you can build this but not this). Those types of changes along with technology result in the blurring of designs names.

As far as Dreadnoughts are concerned, ST was highly influenced by a scifi novel, Dreadnought back in the 70s,80s. BSG has escaped the problem by calling everything big a Battlestar even though these are carrier designs of varying sizes.

IMTU, I consider the +1 million ton (outside of OTU) designs that have multiple spinal mounts (a home rule) to be Dreadnoughts but could easily have called the Death Stars, Battleships or some other classification.

In history we saw these Dreadnoughts replaced by the ww2 Super-Dreadnought. They made them bigger again, but in fact, their all classified battleship and super-battleships. Perhaps we should just assume dreadnought was the slang nickname where it started and leave it at that.

 

[Redcap]

Tucking the Command Cruiser in with the Battlecruiser and Cruiser because it's not much different than the other two, save... well... command?

Apparently the Admirals quarters are rather plush, old bean, but I do rather take the point. Suggestions?

 

[SanDragon]

Apparently the Admirals quarters are rather plush, old bean, but I do rather take the point. Suggestions?

It's just the one thing I immediately picked up on from Aramis' post, referencing Star Fleet Battles.

I have too much of that material, too.

 

[savage]

You have no idea, trust me. I had to have a titanium keyboard made, it was getting so repetitive replacing the plastic ones due to the deep scratches from the razor-sharp nails I have. And every time I sneezed? Yup, Injection mould materials, not a keyboard. Or a monitor, come to that. The darn thing had to be encased in superdense transparent steel with an N2 feed to keep it cool. That's like rockinghorse manure around here, lemme tell you. And don't even get me started on how ineffectual gaviscon is on molecular acid in the stomach. I tell you, it's not easy being sharp and green :rofl:



Hmm. Interesting. I agree that SDBs are for local defence/interdiction only, rather than as mobile strategic platforms, but they do have their uses, primarily as defences for naval bases (jump-capable ships are often required elsewhere, after all), so there IS a place for them; there are seven Naval bases in the Moibin/Limon subsectors on the trailing edge of the Reft; they'd be required to be defended at all times, threat or no (security patrols, critical/vulnerable point defence, etc., and tying up a valuable jump-capable ship for those tasks makes no sense; thus: SDBs.

Further arguments for and against, please?

It's an alternative view point. Each SDB may have a Jump boat available, if its navy. My point is if it's 3I navy why have them instead of Patrol Cruisers and Close Escorts. There is no right way perhaps. But you may also consider cost. 3I has deep pockets but it might require extreme flexibility.

Another thought, the ww2 PT boats aren't the best comparison. SDBs are not intended to hunt and kill destroyers and cruisers.

 

[Redcap]

Your clarification is very accurate. But let's touch on it more. FSotSI is not canon now? Although, i would have assumed it would just be a reference to the design problems. (A few of which i like but need repair).

FSotSI canon? Not to me, but then I follow the Lorenverse setting (GT) after 1015/6, and use a combo of CT and MT rules, IMTU. YMMV of course

(massive snippage)

Perhaps we should just assume dreadnought was the slang nickname where it started and leave it at that.

I'd go along with that; it's a good suggestion

 

[Redcap]

It's just the one thing I immediately picked up on from Aramis' post, referencing Star Fleet Battles.

I have too much of that material, too.

LOL For me it was STCS, but whatever floats your boat (so to speak )

 

[Redcap]

It's an alternative view point. Each SDB may have a Jump boat available, if its navy. My point is if it's 3I navy why have them instead of Patrol Cruisers and Close Escorts. There is no right way perhaps. But you may also consider cost. 3I has deep pockets but it might require extreme flexibility.

Hmm. Hadn't considered that last part. I'll have a delve through the ships listings. Any suggestions as to alternatives? (J-2 minimum, M-4+ pref M-6, with as much punch as you can find, TL14-15)

Another thought, the ww2 PT boats aren't the best comparison. SDBs are not intended to hunt and kill destroyers and cruisers.

Good point; it was an over generalisation.

 

[savage]

Hmm. Hadn't considered that last part. I'll have a delve through the ships listings. Any suggestions as to alternatives? (J-2 minimum, M-4+ pref M-6, with as much punch as you can find, TL14-15)



Good point; it was an over generalisation.

A couple other thoughts:
An SDB that isn't M6 (or max TL) & max firepower is a problem. T20 had a TL11 ship M2 in their fighting ships book for those Gateway systems.
I've already mentioned patrol cruisers. I'd have to think through the many ship designs over the years, but my first thought is fighters. I think a good defense needs to balance all the options.


One other reason for SDBs:
- Command does not want the crew leaving the system. Motto: Defend, Don't Chase!

 

[Redcap]

The only option to SDBs to include jump capability would be a corvette-class vessel, e.g. Gazelles, Chasseurs, or perhaps Reckless Errands. The wiki tends to class them as close escorts, but real world, those'd be corvettes.

regarding fighters - yes, but having them on-station for more than a few hours generally means rotating them a LOT. The benefit of an SDB or Corvette is that it can maintain station for a couple of weeks at a time if required, without much in the way of resupply.

This said, the replacement for the Rampart fighter in Imperial service is the Javelin class, and does at least include "a pair of small staterooms, allowing for extended duration missions" - that probably means one or two submarine-like padded shelves with curtains, and a communal head and small galley with a boiling vessel and a microwave-like cooker for rations, and an endurance of a day or two at most; since there are no specs available, I can't say for sure.

re the main reason for a commander specifying J-0 SDBs being defence not pursuit, agreed whole-heartedly.

I need to think this over a bit, I reckon.

More ideas / suggestions and/or thoughts welcome, naturally

 

[tjoneslo]

I also note that "Fast" was left off the Wiki list. Well, there're holes in the secondary designators lists that I can stick in the missing bits. Just have to include a glossary with the charts I make, is all

It wasn't so much as left off as deliberately omitted. If you think through the design sequence for High Guard all Imperial military ships are 6G (or should be). While we were coming up with the options, we couldn't find a good example to cover the use.

 

[savage]

regarding fighters - yes, but having them on-station for more than a few hours generally means rotating them a LOT. The benefit of an SDB or Corvette is that it can maintain station for a couple of weeks at a time if required, without much in the way of resupply.

I need to think this over a bit, I reckon.

More ideas / suggestions and/or thoughts welcome, naturally

Well, its a defense. So fighters do rotate a lot. They also have standby wings. Real world example, during 9/11 there we're only 2 fighters in the air in the north east (covering several states) because we we're at peace. They could not cover the territory quickly.

I don't tend to use the wiki, but prefer the books. I had a rebuilt Gazelle in one game i re-classified as Griffon, pardon the lapse. Either way, close escorts add value, fighters add value to a tight defense.

 

[aramis]

Tucking the Command Cruiser in with the Battlecruiser and Cruiser because it's not much different than the other two, save... well... command?

Purpose built "command cruisers" are mostly a thing of Sci-Fi. They're really just a CA with extra comms. The role used in most SciFi for them was instead fulfilled by either battlecruisers (CB/BC) or "pocket battleships" (properly, CA "Armored Cruisers" - The Deutschland class CA's)


Some purpose built "Destroyer Leaders" were built... these were light cruisers or frigates assigned to lead destroyer squadrons, and with armaments comparable to those on their partnered Destroyers. In the USN, depending upon size, they actually were counted as either CLs or FFs. Note that the DL's rapidly found their way out of DD Squadrons, and into the frigate role.

To find actual "Command Cruisers" (CC), one has to look at some very small navies, whose frigate, destroyer and cutter based navies have only a couple cruisers, and outfit them with every gadget a more credible navy would put only on BC's and bigger.