CliffBates
SOC-12
I am curious has anyone made a program that did the hard maths--where you would input things like the given units and locations, the system details, etc?
ship-to-ship combat system
- Thread starter flykiller
- Start date
Which maths would those be?
CliffBates
SOC-12
wrong word.. computational coding ability.
I started to read it but didn't have enough context for comprehension. The idea sounds good, bit I didn't dive into the implementation.
"This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...Mayday, Mayday...we are under attack...main drive is gone...turret number one not responding...Mayday...losing cabin pressure fast...calling anyone...please help...This is Free Trader Beowulf...Mayday...." The young crewman repeatedly called over the comm.
"Steady Simmons." Captain Harken said. "Cut transmission now. No one to hear us but the pirates. How old are you, Simmons?"
"Sixteen, ma'am." Simmons said as he turned off the manual transmitter. "Auto distress signal still operative, ma'am." He took a breath. "Continue to transmit?"
"Only auto, Simmons. Well done." Captain Harken adjusted her left shoulder strap. "I keep meaning to get those new duraweb restraints. These are getting a bit threadbare. Oh well. Buckle up tight Simmons and stay on the sensors. I need that fed to the dorsal gun and M'Benga might ask you for a rescan so jump to it when she does. No asking permission."
"Ma'am? We don't have a main drive and one of our guns is out. What do you plan on doing." Simmons said as he double checked his straps. His vacc suit was standard issue and bulky. The regular crew has their fitted. Of course, most of the regular crew weren't on their first space run, though.
"Trois, how are my drives?" Harken commed to Engineering. "Those SOBs are getting a bit close and the yaw will expose our working turret in about three and a half minutes."
"On it Captain! We've routed around the main power channel and you should start seeing a few more greens now."
"Very good, Trois!" Harken rested her hands on thrust control. "I have seventy two percent power and fifteen percent maneuver. Make that twenty. I'm going to ease the yaw until the dorsal gun is ready. Keep me informed."
"Gunnery two here, Captain. I have full control but nominal power. Scans show the pirates are banking over the aft bow and they believed the distress call."
"Good going M'Benga! We're playing dead just a little longer. When you have the shot, give it all you can. We may not get a second. Did the fake debris work?"
"Fully, captain. I've established passive control of all three missiles. They are at twenty three seconds to go fully active and forty eight seconds to impact at current range."
"Missles? Power?" Simmons said. "They didn't cover that in the books, ma'am."
"Probably not." Harken replied. "Space combat is simple; it hurts. You just have to hurt them enough so they won't hurt you. We took a couple hits in Engineering but Trios was able to work around them while we drifted on course. Some of the debris from the hit was a special package M'Benga had prepared a year or so ago. They are self-directed missiles with a low signature. Very high tech, very pricey, but we've been raided too many time for it to not be worth a try."
"As you have noted, Trios is a magician with the engines. Yes, we took damage. However, ships systems are meant to work in space, where things can go wrong. Trios was able to get us back up while you were transmitting about us being helpless. Since more damage ruins our resale value, and we seem to be sitting ducks, the pirates are moving in closer."
"I'm looking forward to this." Harken had a near feral grin. "Their first officer is my ex-husband. Never cared for him, really."
====================================================================
Space combat is simple; Move, Shoot, Assess, Recover. Repeat.
Move
====
Ships Move according to their Maneuver Drive capability, as supported by their Power Plant. In combat, a reduction of either system can have a negative impact on Moving. Ships under <size> rely on the Pilot's skill, Maneuver capability, and optionally Computer programming to avoid being hit.
Harken has Pilot 2 and the Beowulf will have Maneuver 1 shortly. That gives Harken 3 points to Move Evasively. Or she can use 1 point to move away and 2 for evasive maneuvers as she tries to escape.
Shoot
=====
Ships Weapons are under the control of a Gunner. The odds to hit are adjusted by Gunnery skill, the weapons employed, range, computer support, and the target's defensive Move abilities.
M'Benga has Gunner 1 and a very close range. The triple laser turret is a TL 14 effort with a +1 to hit on it's own.
Assess
======
If a hit is achieved, the ship may be damage. The weapon system has an offensive capability and the ship may have armor or other defensive capabilities. If the total offense exceeds the total defense, a hit is achieved.
The Beowulf has standard TL 12 hull with 4 points of armor. The pirate has a TL 8 hull with 2 points of armor.
Recover
=======
If a hit is achieved, roll for location. If there is a crewman with the requisite skills free to do Damage Control, they may attempt to negate the value of one hit. Multiple crew can either affect the roll or work on other hits.
Trois has Engineering 2 and was able to recover from the initial assault. The Beowulf is still damaged and needs time in dock, but she can fight a little longer.
====================================================================
"I have green!" Harken called. "Hang on tight! Full evasive."
The ship's engines surged in a quick pulse. "Direct hit." M'Benga called out. "Power low but recharging fast. Missiles active and will impact in sixty six seconds. Simmons, full active scan on the target!" She paused. "Hey Captain, will you still get his condo on Wardn?"
"Steady Simmons." Captain Harken said. "Cut transmission now. No one to hear us but the pirates. How old are you, Simmons?"
"Sixteen, ma'am." Simmons said as he turned off the manual transmitter. "Auto distress signal still operative, ma'am." He took a breath. "Continue to transmit?"
"Only auto, Simmons. Well done." Captain Harken adjusted her left shoulder strap. "I keep meaning to get those new duraweb restraints. These are getting a bit threadbare. Oh well. Buckle up tight Simmons and stay on the sensors. I need that fed to the dorsal gun and M'Benga might ask you for a rescan so jump to it when she does. No asking permission."
"Ma'am? We don't have a main drive and one of our guns is out. What do you plan on doing." Simmons said as he double checked his straps. His vacc suit was standard issue and bulky. The regular crew has their fitted. Of course, most of the regular crew weren't on their first space run, though.
"Trois, how are my drives?" Harken commed to Engineering. "Those SOBs are getting a bit close and the yaw will expose our working turret in about three and a half minutes."
"On it Captain! We've routed around the main power channel and you should start seeing a few more greens now."
"Very good, Trois!" Harken rested her hands on thrust control. "I have seventy two percent power and fifteen percent maneuver. Make that twenty. I'm going to ease the yaw until the dorsal gun is ready. Keep me informed."
"Gunnery two here, Captain. I have full control but nominal power. Scans show the pirates are banking over the aft bow and they believed the distress call."
"Good going M'Benga! We're playing dead just a little longer. When you have the shot, give it all you can. We may not get a second. Did the fake debris work?"
"Fully, captain. I've established passive control of all three missiles. They are at twenty three seconds to go fully active and forty eight seconds to impact at current range."
"Missles? Power?" Simmons said. "They didn't cover that in the books, ma'am."
"Probably not." Harken replied. "Space combat is simple; it hurts. You just have to hurt them enough so they won't hurt you. We took a couple hits in Engineering but Trios was able to work around them while we drifted on course. Some of the debris from the hit was a special package M'Benga had prepared a year or so ago. They are self-directed missiles with a low signature. Very high tech, very pricey, but we've been raided too many time for it to not be worth a try."
"As you have noted, Trios is a magician with the engines. Yes, we took damage. However, ships systems are meant to work in space, where things can go wrong. Trios was able to get us back up while you were transmitting about us being helpless. Since more damage ruins our resale value, and we seem to be sitting ducks, the pirates are moving in closer."
"I'm looking forward to this." Harken had a near feral grin. "Their first officer is my ex-husband. Never cared for him, really."
====================================================================
Space combat is simple; Move, Shoot, Assess, Recover. Repeat.
Move
====
Ships Move according to their Maneuver Drive capability, as supported by their Power Plant. In combat, a reduction of either system can have a negative impact on Moving. Ships under <size> rely on the Pilot's skill, Maneuver capability, and optionally Computer programming to avoid being hit.
Harken has Pilot 2 and the Beowulf will have Maneuver 1 shortly. That gives Harken 3 points to Move Evasively. Or she can use 1 point to move away and 2 for evasive maneuvers as she tries to escape.
Shoot
=====
Ships Weapons are under the control of a Gunner. The odds to hit are adjusted by Gunnery skill, the weapons employed, range, computer support, and the target's defensive Move abilities.
M'Benga has Gunner 1 and a very close range. The triple laser turret is a TL 14 effort with a +1 to hit on it's own.
Assess
======
If a hit is achieved, the ship may be damage. The weapon system has an offensive capability and the ship may have armor or other defensive capabilities. If the total offense exceeds the total defense, a hit is achieved.
The Beowulf has standard TL 12 hull with 4 points of armor. The pirate has a TL 8 hull with 2 points of armor.
Recover
=======
If a hit is achieved, roll for location. If there is a crewman with the requisite skills free to do Damage Control, they may attempt to negate the value of one hit. Multiple crew can either affect the roll or work on other hits.
Trois has Engineering 2 and was able to recover from the initial assault. The Beowulf is still damaged and needs time in dock, but she can fight a little longer.
====================================================================
"I have green!" Harken called. "Hang on tight! Full evasive."
The ship's engines surged in a quick pulse. "Direct hit." M'Benga called out. "Power low but recharging fast. Missiles active and will impact in sixty six seconds. Simmons, full active scan on the target!" She paused. "Hey Captain, will you still get his condo on Wardn?"
Keeping in mind that our styles might differ, something like that. The only real chart you need is the damage location. Provide one as an example for a 200 dTon merchant, based off your percentages. Ensure each potential hit location has a relevant skill to work around damage. At the end, provide the formula for converting system allocation to the 2d6 roll.
I see no context here. the "48 seconds" and "self-directed" missiles seem more background color for rpg patter than any kind of system. sort of when like when spock says he's going to amplify the sounds aboard the enterprise by 1 to the 12th power.
if I understand you correctly, you view the rpg as context for an unspecified technical dramatization. I was hoping to do the opposite - provide an objective system and use that as the context for the role-playing game.
that's the second time I've seen you bring up an "ex". someone in your past?
if I understand you correctly, you view the rpg as context for an unspecified technical dramatization. I was hoping to do the opposite - provide an objective system and use that as the context for the role-playing game.
that's the second time I've seen you bring up an "ex". someone in your past?
As to the actual mechanics of the combat system instead of a hit location that is not presented to the fire being a miss, I would instead have the hit go through the other side of the ship to hit that location, if there is damage value left to hit it that is. like in Brilliant lances a hit loses damage value going through the 20 AV of an unarmored empty cargo hold, but still carries through to the next location in line damaging and destroying items as it goes through till all the damage values are used up, or the shot exits the hull , hitting any surface features on the other side as it departs.
Brilliant lances damage allocation refers to a diagram of the ship generated in the ship design process, specifying 20 equal sized sections of the ship with d-100 throws for the items in each section by volume.
* So a J1 cargo hauler will have 16 of 20 sections be "cargo hold"
2 sections as engineering/bridge/crew quarters/pp fuel, and 2 sections as jump fuel so fully 80% of the hits on that ship will be largely ineffective unless you let the damage carry through to hit additional sections.
the apply damage sequence...
*Surface feature if any at the hit location
*The hull at the hit location
*Machinery and people in the hit compartment *May* be hit or killed
the next compartment is hit in a line from the impact point to the exit point
If any internal armor is present then a bulkhead may need to be penetrated before it damages the next compartment
*The hull on the far side is penetrated
*and if any damage value is left the surface feature there is hit
The only complaint I have is that it removes destroyed items from the things to absorb later hits. (A destroyed AFV in the cargo hold is still large hunks of metal that can absorb energy from additional hits to that location. A fuel tank that was full is no longer full.) I think a more reasoned approach should be used. A steel billet in the shape of a 200 dt cargo module is going to need to be in the destroyed radius of a nuclear device to stop absorbing hits, while a fuel tank that is ruptured no longer has fuel to absorb damage after a single hit.
Brilliant lances damage allocation refers to a diagram of the ship generated in the ship design process, specifying 20 equal sized sections of the ship with d-100 throws for the items in each section by volume.
* So a J1 cargo hauler will have 16 of 20 sections be "cargo hold"
2 sections as engineering/bridge/crew quarters/pp fuel, and 2 sections as jump fuel so fully 80% of the hits on that ship will be largely ineffective unless you let the damage carry through to hit additional sections.
the apply damage sequence...
*Surface feature if any at the hit location
*The hull at the hit location
*Machinery and people in the hit compartment *May* be hit or killed
the next compartment is hit in a line from the impact point to the exit point
If any internal armor is present then a bulkhead may need to be penetrated before it damages the next compartment
*The hull on the far side is penetrated
*and if any damage value is left the surface feature there is hit
The only complaint I have is that it removes destroyed items from the things to absorb later hits. (A destroyed AFV in the cargo hold is still large hunks of metal that can absorb energy from additional hits to that location. A fuel tank that was full is no longer full.) I think a more reasoned approach should be used. A steel billet in the shape of a 200 dt cargo module is going to need to be in the destroyed radius of a nuclear device to stop absorbing hits, while a fuel tank that is ruptured no longer has fuel to absorb damage after a single hit.
Let me tell you the story of the year and the day.
Some time back a co-worker wanted to improve her career. I was able to provide advice and training. She did all the hard work and in about a year found a good job at a great place. By now she's probably smarter than I.
Something over a year ago I introduced a very useful tool to a work team. A few new concepts but the basic use could be learned in a day. I provided examples, showed them how to use it, and everyone agreed that it would solve some problems. A year later, only one other person uses the tool that everyone agrees should be used.
I attribute the difference to motivation. Which comes from personal context. Until there's enough interest in a learning project people won't bother. That's why I use stories to build interest. Describe the tool in use in a way that gets people willing to spend the time learning it.
People might like a new form of ship combat so I encourage you to pursue the idea. Active feedback can help improve the results. If you can get enough people testing and commenting on the project you can build a fairly good momentum. However, that depends on your ability to attract and retain a test group.
Sounds like you've missed a few references. My life is varied enough to have rolled both "2" and "12" on occasion.
Assign each cargo and ship compartment an Ablative Armor Value. (AAV)
ah. I see.
those attracted by rhetoric are not going to be interested in the system in the first place. they're there for the rhetoric and won't care what the game system is. that's probably why the ones who agreed with you about the tool didn't use it. your training session was attractive, and probably had good snacks, but the tool wasn't relevant to them.
I kept the system I described here as general and modular as I could - traveller fans are a contentious bunch - while still keeping it a general system. I tried to explain it in careful step-by-step detail that minimized personal labor at understanding - no-one asked any questions. I believe it met the goals I laid out at the beginning - no-one said "hey, why are you doing this or that?" at this point traveller fans either find it useful or they don't. I was asking if anyone had in fact found it useful.
Personally, I have an "ease of use" problem with it. I started reading it, and my eyes glazed over. I see what you are going for, but ...
Always helpful.
I'm not sure you succeeded here, but I am willing to try reading it again. Mind you, I'm not an unintelligent person. I breezed through four semesters of calculus when I was in college.
It's hard to determine what questions to ask when you don't understand what you are looking at.
In my job, I run bi-weekly meetings where I discuss the status of various system issues with my primary user base. My users are some of the most knowledgeable people on how the system works. It is rare that anyone asks any questions during the meetings. I think there is a fear of looking dumb. Those same users ask questions of me via email after the meeting, typically questions I already answered in the meeting, or questions that other users would benefit from. A couple of my users are fond of telling me, "we don't know what we don't know."
I'm not sure you met this goal.
This is a good point for someone reviewing the system to keep in mind. It's utility is primarily in the PBP arena.
In truth, I would like to find it useful. My main barriers are ease of use and the fact that it is intended for PBP. I am looking for something that I can use in my table-top game that meets your first four goals.
Cheers,
Baron Ovka
ah. then yeah, you don't want this, you'd be better off with a hex map. perhaps "mayday".
yeepers. I thought I did a good job making it as clear as possible. well, intelligence is not the issue, communication is, and communication is difficult. looks like I need practice. if you think this might be useful to you I'll try again.
not exactly. there is a fear of the consequences of looking dumb - being one-upped by aggressive co-workers who see an opportunity to look smart in comparison, being looked down upon by the boss 'cause you're not "success-oriented", being viewed as not part of the team, passed-over work assignments, missed raises ....
ah. an excellent example of the communications issue. what I meant was "<for a face-to-face game> you don't want this, <for a face-to-face game> you'd be better off with a hex map", and "if you think this might be useful to you <in a future pbp game> I'll try again." for me the added context statements seemed obvious, and to state them outright seemed pedantic and unnecessary.
... perhaps you mean "rpg value"? yes, quite true. the system takes into account 1) the ship itself and 2) the combat environment directly. the player characters fit into this, rather than the other way around.
for simple rpg work book 2 is quite sufficient. here ship design, component placement, or even j1 vs j4 fuel tank sizes play no role. tables are the same, player actions are the same, game referee descriptive patter is the same, die roll results are the same.
as book 2 vector movement is almost impossible to implement, range bands seem adequate for simple rpg work. thus combat environment plays no role. tactical decisions are absent, vector plays no role, system features play no role.
but this system takes into account ship design, weapons bearing, tactical aspect, system features, actual distances, vector, and multiple players.
if one feels this is overly complex then it is overly complex. if one feels this has no play value then it has no play value.
