Ramifications of a Black Hole in Charted Space

[aramis]

Actually, almost all black holes will be significantly lower mass than when they were stars, because they shed huge pile of mass during the supernova collapse process. Much of that will be recovered, but a lot won't (and if it didn't, we wouldn't exist, because that's how almost everything above atomic number 4 is generated).

 

[Blue Ghost]

« whulorigan » ; it's the whole compression and radius thing that throws me. I sometimes think of black holes as huge giant black spheres, when they aren't. It's just the graphics in the documentaries throwing me for a loop.

 

[aramis]

They will appear to be large blacknesses surrounded by a ring of light around them... assuming that they aren't feeding. The actual body inside will be considerably smaller...

The ring is the effect of background images distorting by gravitational lensing.

 

[ovka]

Just a brief recap. The only effect of the BH in this system is to the system itself. As far as it goes, there is no ambient light or heat in the system.

According to the Traveller wiki, the system has ...

An airless set of planetesimals captured within a ring of radius 500,000,000 km around a collapsed supernova black hole.

Because of the enormous energies released by the nova, Shadowsand has been mined heavily in the last fifteen years since the discovery there of eka-metals, super-heavymetals with very unusual and unique properties.

In 1094, the Chalq Dhamon rebels commandeered mining operations there considered vital to the success of Genem Inc.'s freepoint armor projects for fourteen months before being destroyed by several contingents of Protectorate Marines.

The wiki lists FASA's Rescue on Galatea (for info on Genem Inc IIRC) and Traveller Chronicle 8 as references. I haven't had a chance to review either of those recently.

<edit>
The above quote from the wiki is taken word-for-word from Rescue on Galatea.
<end edit>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[mike wightman]

This reminds me of the proposed MT trilogy the Onesium quest.

The onesium being a stable element way beyond our periodic table. Such stuff would only be naturally available from supernova remnants...

 

[aramis]

One thing Marc had me check on was the gravitational effects of large stars upon jumps.

A lot depends upon which model one uses for the mass-shadows of stars... if it's density ≥ 10 µBar,, then giant stars can block ranges of up to two parsecs, but you can jump inside the schwarzschild radius.

If you use tidal force.... well note that the solar tidal force on earth is about half that of the moon... 0.54e-7 solar vs 1.1e-7 lunar (m/s^2)

 

[Garnfellow]

One thing Marc had me check on was the gravitational effects of large stars upon jumps.

A lot depends upon which model one uses for the mass-shadows of stars... if it's density ≥ 10 µBar,, then giant stars can block ranges of up to two parsecs, but you can jump inside the schwarzschild radius.

If you use tidal force.... well note that the solar tidal force on earth is about half that of the moon... 0.54e-7 solar vs 1.1e-7 lunar (m/s^2)

He hands out jump drives for playesting?

 

[aramis]

He hands out jump drives for playesting?

More like, "given these constraints, and the real world frequencies of ___, what are the setting ramifications?"...

Then, I ran off, did a bunch of math, and came back with, "You'll never ever get an in galaxy leap nor bound..." which resulted in changes to the formulae for exclusion...

 

[tjoneslo]

More like, "given these constraints, and the real world frequencies of ___, what are the setting ramifications?"...

Then, I ran off, did a bunch of math, and came back with, "You'll never ever get an in galaxy leap nor bound..." which resulted in changes to the formulae for exclusion...

Did you include the calculation for galactic core? I recall doing the same sorts of calculations and finding that the density calculation for the Galactic core + 100D extends beyond charted space.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Can someone recommend a good up to date contemporary book on black holes?

 

[aramis]

Did you include the calculation for galactic core? I recall doing the same sorts of calculations and finding that the density calculation for the Galactic core + 100D extends beyond charted space.

No, but the real "the diameters increase a power of 10 per generation" died when I pointed out that,

• due to the frequency of Stellar Sizes Ib and II, leap was worthless throughout the disk of the galaxy...
• Due to Ooort clouds, you couldn't leap into systems with oort clouds half as dense as our own...
• Due to the Size 0, Ia, and Ib, you couldn't bound within the disk.
• given the per parsec chances in 5.0, no drive was good for more than about 20 Pc anyway
• A Hop Drive is accurate enough to hit even a red dwarf's stellar sphere, and will put any star of Size V or VI in "hop to within less than a week at J1 of the Hab zone", and Size IV through about F0 V... (and that's well under a week at 2G).
• given the above, Hop ships won't need a J-drive; an H1, even if not allowed to do a "controlled" J1-J9 (such as at early stage), it still can use the gravitic "precipitation" effect to hit ANYTHING within 3-4 Pc... including BD's.

I did see confirmation from Marc at the time that Jump in canon is limited by Solids, Liquids, Gasses, and plasmas of any singular object, but that the solar wind is too thin (even on highly active O0 Ia) to be counted. In other words, a thin plasma isn't an impediment at IPM levels.

STP = 1e19 molecules per CC, mostly nitrogen.
IPM is 5 to 500 molecules per cc, but at much higher energies than the ISM, and has a dust particle per cubic meter that are above 1... but the mass of those is tiny (average under 1.5e-4 g; the descriptions of "average" dust work out to around 5e–7 g each, and I can't find the numbers for it right now...

 

[whulorigan]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]No, but the real "the diameters increase a power of 10 per generation" died when I pointed out that,

• due to the frequency of Stellar Sizes Ib and II, leap was worthless throughout the disk of the galaxy...
• Due to Ooort clouds, you couldn't leap into systems with oort clouds half as dense as our own...
• Due to the Size 0, Ia, and Ib, you couldn't bound within the disk.
• given the per parsec chances in 5.0, no drive was good for more than about 20 Pc anyway
• A Hop Drive is accurate enough to hit even a red dwarf's stellar sphere, and will put any star of Size V or VI in "hop to within less than a week at J1 of the Hab zone", and Size IV through about F0 V... (and that's well under a week at 2G).
• given the above, Hop ships won't need a J-drive; an H1, even if not allowed to do a "controlled" J1-J9 (such as at early stage), it still can use the gravitic "precipitation" effect to hit ANYTHING within 3-4 Pc... including BD's.

[/FONT]

I know that the Galaxy/Charted Space of Traveller is considered 2D for game purposes, but could one argue that Leap & Bound (and Higher) drives do a two-stage jump: first to the Galactic Halo (perhaps to a Globular Cluster or Satellite Dwarf Galaxy, or just to empty space), and then back to the destination in the disk? Would the Jump Shadows still overlap when moving in the direction of the thickness of the galactic plane along the z-axis? The galactic plane is about 300-600pc thick, IIRC.

 

[aramis]

I know that the Galaxy/Charted Space of Traveller is considered 2D for game purposes, but could one argue that Leap & Bound (and Higher) drives do a two-stage jump: first to the Galactic Halo (perhaps to a Globular Cluster or Satellite Dwarf Galaxy, or just to empty space), and then back to the destination in the disk? Would the Jump Shadows still overlap when moving in the direction of the thickness of the galactic plane along the z-axis? The galactic plane is about 300-600pc thick, IIRC.

Under T5.0, you wouldn't be able to escape the plane due to no visible paths. Everything worked out to capping around H3... past that, your astro computer doesn't matter; you run into SOMETHING's sphere.

I worked it out in both 2D and 3D. Realize that with a 100,000 diameter radius, you almost always stop at the oort cloud both in and out... that's leap drive... And then, you get about 20-30 Pc, and have exceeded the 5σ distance without running into something's shadow; especially important because the oort clouds being a block, that makes every star a 1-3 LY sphere...

 

[Blue Ghost]

A neat little video by PBS, it explains a lot about black holes, including giving a primer on various types;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaEBbFbvcY

 

[ovka]

Interestingly enough (steering back to the original reason for the thread ), I pulled out my copy of Traveller Chronicle 8 last night and read through the adventure that mentioned Shadowsand. It mentioned the belt and the belters that mined it. It gave some information on the starport. I didn't find a single mention of the black hole.

It says that the Inverness subsector was detailed in TC 3, but that is the only issue of TC that I don't have. I wonder of the author of the adventure didn't know that there was a black hole just a mere few AUs away fro the belt.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[maksimsmelchak]

A neat little video by PBS, it explains a lot about black holes, including giving a primer on various types;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaEBbFbvcY

Thank you. Very helpful link.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Blue Ghost]

You are welcome. The video states or implies that there will be further Black Hole videos to come.

Some more Black Hole goodness from SciShow;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8GCR88T3fE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lptt20cohrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq4u7Sv7GT4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzAEeROl3rw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6S1ITzXPTQ

And Finally;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1HqOEbq2L4

 

[savage]

Interestingly enough (steering back to the original reason for the thread ), I pulled out my copy of Traveller Chronicle 8 last night and read through the adventure that mentioned Shadowsand. It mentioned the belt and the belters that mined it. It gave some information on the starport. I didn't find a single mention of the black hole.

It says that the Inverness subsector was detailed in TC 3, but that is the only issue of TC that I don't have. I wonder of the author of the adventure didn't know that there was a black hole just a mere few AUs away fro the belt.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

Some of these early adventures are pretty thinly written. One would think they'd mention it. However, there is no reason to assume a "protected" world could not survive around a black hole. Recent studies suggest other forms of life might like these environments..

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...uld-support-bizarre-life-on-orbiting-planets/

As for MTU, I added a relatively small black hole into known space. These things we're frowned on for stability reasons, right. But we've now seen a couple nova's in OTU, so anything goes.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...uld-support-bizarre-life-on-orbiting-planets/

I read that paper. The most interesting thing (to me, anyway) was when they went all speculative on the concept of building Dyson Spheres around black holes.

Instead of taking energy from a central star, you could design a Dyson Sphere to leech background radiation, and then use the black hole as a great big waste heat dumpster.

Not nearly as much energy to harvest with that method, but if you really want to build a megastructure without catching the attention of the rest of the universe, that would be one way to do it.

 

[savage]

I read that paper. The most interesting thing (to me, anyway) was when they went all speculative on the concept of building Dyson Spheres around black holes.

Instead of taking energy from a central star, you could design a Dyson Sphere to leech background radiation, and then use the black hole as a great big waste heat dumpster.

Not nearly as much energy to harvest with that method, but if you really want to build a megastructure without catching the attention of the rest of the universe, that would be one way to do it.

Yes. I think the "without catching the attention of the rest of the universe" comment is really insightful. The background radiation absorption would depend on the proximity and orbit. This is an object that would also survive the test of time. The biggest challenge is a plan should the BH start the feeding process again which it would eventually do.