Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
A jump is a week long cruise, plus.
Going by current costs, it's also expensive.
Going by current costs, it's also expensive.
MGT Only: Barracks: 2 tons or 1?
- Thread starter Brandon C
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It's a chain task, you soap up first.
Viewing the issue from perspective of a simple architectural design problem, the physical 'sleeping space' could easily be reduced to as little as 1 dTon per person with private rooms and 0.5 dTons per person with shared rooms. However, the tighter the personal space, the more 'other' space they will require.
In my opinion, 2 dTons per person is a good minimum for any sort of long duration while maintaining readiness basic design.
If I were designing the space, I would probably build it with the capability of functioning with double that occupancy (2 persons in 2 dTons) for strictly 'transport' of troops from A to B with the expectation that they would not be happy, but they would have some time to adjust once they reached the destination. For example, folding down the extra bunks to fit more bodies aboard might make sense for a one week shuttling of troops from one system to a training center in the next system. I would probably design the refreshers for 2 soldiers per 2 dTons capacity.
Since I hate it when everyone dies because of a stowaway (or one of the scrubbers breaks)
... I would design Life Support with a capacity of 4 persons per 2 dTons to give it a safety factor of 2 even when crowded and allow a ship to 'hot bunk' in response to some emergency and load the ship to an uncomfortable 4 people per 2 dTons. (sorry, no showers ... it all just became drinking water ... get used to that locker room smell)
Those are my preferences.
YMMV
In my opinion, 2 dTons per person is a good minimum for any sort of long duration while maintaining readiness basic design.
If I were designing the space, I would probably build it with the capability of functioning with double that occupancy (2 persons in 2 dTons) for strictly 'transport' of troops from A to B with the expectation that they would not be happy, but they would have some time to adjust once they reached the destination. For example, folding down the extra bunks to fit more bodies aboard might make sense for a one week shuttling of troops from one system to a training center in the next system. I would probably design the refreshers for 2 soldiers per 2 dTons capacity.
Since I hate it when everyone dies because of a stowaway (or one of the scrubbers breaks)
... I would design Life Support with a capacity of 4 persons per 2 dTons to give it a safety factor of 2 even when crowded and allow a ship to 'hot bunk' in response to some emergency and load the ship to an uncomfortable 4 people per 2 dTons. (sorry, no showers ... it all just became drinking water ... get used to that locker room smell)Those are my preferences.
YMMV
At higher TLs, there are probably Marine workarounds for a typical water shower. Towels that clean skin with additives, could even be a sponge-like organic organism alternative and scrubbing in the air filtration system.
There are several reasons for this. The spread of contaminates in an enclosed ecosystem, health of the forces being delivered, fresh troops.
Looking at the deckplans in Supplement 2:
The patrol cruiser has a 2 ton fresher for 12 marines
The colonial cruiser has a 3.5 ton fresher for 36 marines
The assault gunship has a 5 ton fresher for 32 marines
The Q-ship has a 2 ton fresher for 10 marines
The light assault transport has a 4 ton fresher for 122 marines (!)
The pirate cruiser does not have a fresher for the barracks labeled, but an unmarked 3 ton room is probably the fresher for the 20 "marines"
The LAT fresher is the only one that looks really undersized, and a second fresher could me designated with space from the mess.
The patrol cruiser has a 2 ton fresher for 12 marines
The colonial cruiser has a 3.5 ton fresher for 36 marines
The assault gunship has a 5 ton fresher for 32 marines
The Q-ship has a 2 ton fresher for 10 marines
The light assault transport has a 4 ton fresher for 122 marines (!)
The pirate cruiser does not have a fresher for the barracks labeled, but an unmarked 3 ton room is probably the fresher for the 20 "marines"
The LAT fresher is the only one that looks really undersized, and a second fresher could me designated with space from the mess.
According to the Plumbing Code, a dormitory requires 1 water closet per 10 people, 1 lavatory per 10 people and 1 shower per 8 people. Based on standard residential sizes and spacing, a 2 dTon common 'Refresher' should be able to accommodate 'refreshers' for up to 28 people and contain about 3 water closets, 3 sinks and 3 showers (or the far future equivalent).
So the 'code minimum' refreshers should be about 1 dTon per 14 people or a single 0.5 dTon refresher for each 7 people.
Showers can be as small as 1x1m. 1 sq meter. (Tight - like an RV shower)
A WC can easily be fit in 1x1.3m. (narrow-stall)
A lav can be fit in 1x1m, but really should be about 1x1.3m
at 3.1m ceiling, a Td is 4.5 sq m of floor.
looking at the USN's current design requirements...
the following table is copied from T9640-AC-DSP-010/HAB (2 July 2013), Table 3-3, footnotes removed.
| Fixture | Officer Ship/Troop | CPO/SNCO | Enlisted Crew/Troop |
| Lavatories | 30 | 8 | 12 |
| Water Closets | 8 | 10 | 14 |
| Showers | 11 | 12 | 25 |
This is how many people you can have per 1 of said item in communal space; each officer berth also gets a lav in berth, and n exception for small crews raises any crew category of 7 berths or more to two WC. Senior officer Berths (min CO, if field grade expected, XO as well, optionally, all predicted field grade berths) should have a shared toilet/shower install.
enclosures are 30" (76cm) wide, have 30" from the forwardmost point of knee room, and typically have a 60" deep overall space, plus access space (minimum 24" wide passing room, 30" preferred.
Shower installs are a 30x30" stall, and 30x30" drying space, which may be shared with another shower, or in shared senior officer T/S units, may be the leg space for the WC.
So... this gives me some good numbers to work layouts...
Lower left is for 0-6 crew; upper left is 7-24 crew. Upper right is for 37-48 crew. Lower right is for senior officers in-quarters shared.
Grid is 1.5m.
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How does 1 shower per 25 men actually work out?
At 10 minute showers (including the time to changeover from one crewman to another), that still takes over 4 hours to get through the crew following morning exercise.
I have never been happier that the Navy turned me down.
At 10 minute showers (including the time to changeover from one crewman to another), that still takes over 4 hours to get through the crew following morning exercise.
I have never been happier that the Navy turned me down.
How does 1 shower per 25 men actually work out?
At 10 minute showers (including the time to changeover from one crewman to another), that still takes over 4 hours to get through the crew following morning exercise.
I have never been happier that the Navy turned me down.
Navy regs suggest 5 minute showers are the norm. Seriously. In, 30 sec water. 2 min lather without running water. 1-1.5min rinse, 1 minute for ingress/egress to the space.
Also, the navy doesn't actually expect daily showers; in some cases, showers are restricted to weekly due to water limits.
I have seen, at a BEQ, guys lined up to SHARE 2 showers - you step into the fresher, strip. Wait for shower A, step into A, step out and lather, rinse in shower B, out and dry... you can have 3 guys showering at a time in two stalls, and each guy gets about 1.5 minutes in each step. Stripping is done in line or in lav space, and dressing is done in the WC stalls or lav space. So you can put those 25 guys through in under an hour, and use only 3 minutes of water each, if even that.
That, they did NOT mention at the recruiting office.
here's what else they didn't mention. the water line runs aft down the starboard side. the water heater - a steam-on-demand set-up - is to port, so a separate water line runs to port, through the heater, then back to starboard where the shower is. it's wintertime, so the water coming aft is freezing. the freezing water runs straight starboard to the shower head, while the hot water is from port. both meet right at the hose leading to the showerhead in your hand, with no plenum. the ship rolls to port, nothing but freezing water comes out the showerhead. the ship rolls to starboard, nothing but near-boiling water comes out the showerhead. try showering with that.
That, they did NOT mention at the recruiting office.
I found mention of the "minimums" in a medical department manual... at least 4 minutes water per week per man for showers. At least 5 minutes per day per man at the lav faucet (which is considerably lower flow than the shower) for personal grooming. At least one flush per day per man, but it may be graywater and/or seawater.
Mention is made of the navy shower in the BlueJacket's Manual, on page 222 of the 2002 edition. http://www.survivorlibrary.com/library/blue_jackets_manual_2002.pdf
madmike
SOC-12
When I wrote Anderson and Felix Guide to Naval Architecture for Gypsy Knight Games Clement Sector setting, I kept the barrack requirement 2dT per trooper, using the total amount for bunk space, heads, galley and a mess etc. So in the end it works out to be around 1dT per trooper. Barracks are only used for transporting troops not acommodating the ship's ship troops or marines.
For onboard troops the standard crew berth arrangment is used. When crew berthing is used (all warships) seperate heads must be provided.
In A&F the allocation for heads is one head per four crew. Enlisted berths are up to eight per 6dT
The upcoming A&F second edition for MgT 2e maintains this guideline.
For onboard troops the standard crew berth arrangment is used. When crew berthing is used (all warships) seperate heads must be provided.
In A&F the allocation for heads is one head per four crew. Enlisted berths are up to eight per 6dT
The upcoming A&F second edition for MgT 2e maintains this guideline.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
As humans, most of us can tolerate over a short period a great deal of discomfort and unpleasantness, especially if it's common, coercion is involved, but there is some visible goal.
Now, Centaurs might have another view on this.
Outside of whatever historical models the creative team had been drawing on, my take on take on the Solomani is that their Navy has always been operating on a constricted budget, and cooperate with the Army, as compared to the Imperium, that can afford more luxurious accommodations for their personnel on their ships. There is a cruiser, and probably similarly sized support ships, gap and most of the Solomani ground forces would be transported on what we'll call Adventure class hull based ships.
Insystem staging areas might be far more spacious.
Now, Centaurs might have another view on this.
Outside of whatever historical models the creative team had been drawing on, my take on take on the Solomani is that their Navy has always been operating on a constricted budget, and cooperate with the Army, as compared to the Imperium, that can afford more luxurious accommodations for their personnel on their ships. There is a cruiser, and probably similarly sized support ships, gap and most of the Solomani ground forces would be transported on what we'll call Adventure class hull based ships.
Insystem staging areas might be far more spacious.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
This may or may not be in the regs, but I never saw in enforced or even bothered with my entire time in the navy (8 years, 5 1/2 of it under water). Nobody is standing outside the shower with a stop watch. And we made our own fresh water.
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