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A Small Shypard Rule

kilemall

SOC-14 5K
A Small Shipyard Rule

.... with big consequences.

The rule-

A & B shipyards can only build ACS-sized starships/spacecraft, in order to build larger HG ships/monitors/battleriders the shipyard world must be rated IND.

TCS effects- if the world is not IND, the shipyard's repair capability is divided by 10, new tonnage by 100.

The less harsh version-

A & B shipyards on worlds rated non-IND can only build ACS-sized starships/spacecraft.

TCS effects- if the world is non-IND, the shipyard's repair capability is divided by 10, new tonnage by 100.

Either way, the strategic and commerce map changes.
 
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I'm confused, but what else is new.

What exactly is the change you're proposing?

I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it, but I will express again.

If the shipyard is located on a IND trade classification world, it can make big ships. If not, it can only make LBB2-sized ships.

Alternatively, NON-IND trade classification worlds with A/B starports can only make LBB2-sized ships/craft, others can make the big ones.
 
I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it, but I will express again.


Wait a minute... I think I know where I got confused. I thought you were referring to a rule in [T5 and then proposing a "less harsh" version.

You're proposing two new rules, right? Harsh and less harsh?

So, in the "Harsh" rule only In worlds with A or B starports can build BCS/HG2 ships. Why not Hi (hi pop) worlds too? The only difference between the two is the atmosphere ratings for In status. Why can't a world of billions with a A or B starport build BCS/HG2 ships regardless of the atmosphere?

Next, in the "Less Harsh" rule, Ni with the proper ports can build ACS/LLB2 ships while everyone else with the proper port can build both.

"Harsh" or "Less harsh", why not simply tie it to population and ports instead of roping trade class into the mix? In worlds require 9+ and I can't see why any world with the proper ports a 9+ population couldn't build BCS/HG2 ships.
 
nice concept, but it doesn't seem to have much effect. in the sm mora, trin, glisten, palique, efate, lunion, strouden, fornice, jewell, aki, and junidy are all industrialized anyway. the only major shipyard worlds that are not industrialized are rhylanor and porozlo. it would be a big setback imtu (a lot fewer alice-class transports), but I doubt anyone else would notice.
 
Why not a Ri (rich) world? What about tech level? Could a TL 15 A class starport build say a TL 12 battleship of some sort? What about a TL 10 battleship? What about a world with one adjacent to it (jump 1) that has an industrial rating but is say Starport C? Couldn't they be used (assuming the right TL) to manufacture the necessary parts that the world with the A starport then assembles?

I'd think that what they could build is far more a function of frequency of doing such construction and having the economy to support that construction in terms of money than it is about population or industrial status.

That is, if you have world that builds a battleship every, say, two years for the Imperium, et. al., then they have that capacity. On the other hand, a world deep in the Imperium where there's no need for such ships might not have the capacity to build them at all even as they turn out large liners and cargo ships by the dozen. The technology involved in the two isn't any more the same than it is for some shipyard to turn out mega container ships versus aircraft carriers today.

I'd think the question here is... How many large warships does the Imperium, etc., possess and of what types? Along with, how often are new ones constructed? That would drive the commonality of shipyards that could build these ships as those yards have to operate at a minimum of breaking even on production costs.
 
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You're proposing two new rules, right? Harsh and less harsh?

Yep.

So, in the "Harsh" rule only In worlds with A or B starports can build BCS/HG2 ships. Why not Hi (hi pop) worlds too? The only difference between the two is the atmosphere ratings for In status. Why can't a world of billions with a A or B starport build BCS/HG2 ships regardless of the atmosphere?

The genesis of this rule was mulling over the SS3 Missiles rule, where you could only buy missiles at IND worlds. It occurred to me that if that status makes a difference for weeny objects like missiles, it should for Big Ships.

Next, in the "Less Harsh" rule, Ni with the proper ports can build ACS/LLB2 ships while everyone else with the proper port can build both.

"Harsh" or "Less harsh", why not simply tie it to population and ports instead of roping trade class into the mix? In worlds require 9+ and I can't see why any world with the proper ports a 9+ population couldn't build BCS/HG2 ships.

Why not? I suppose it is the difference between deciding you are a high end vacation/residential/academic world, or that you are Planet Cleveland, belter shipyards, or Modern Industrial Polluted China World.

Industrial goods are clearly made there in mass quantities at cheaper prices with inputs for raw materials, that would seem to fit building Tigresses.
 
nice concept, but it doesn't seem to have much effect. in the sm mora, trin, glisten, palique, efate, lunion, strouden, fornice, jewell, aki, and junidy are all industrialized anyway. the only major shipyard worlds that are not industrialized are rhylanor and porozlo. it would be a big setback imtu (a lot fewer alice-class transports), but I doubt anyone else would notice.

I haven't really looked at the OTU and so I wouldn't know. However a quick and very cursory casual glance for the Spinward Marches from a Traveller Map dump shows that the IN classification cross-indexed with the starports yields something like only 1/4 of A/B starports being industrial.

And not all of them are desirable E/F TLs.

Plenty of other planets that are IN but are C/D starports.

So as I intended the key military industrial infrastructure shrinks down and changes the pattern of builds and what are critical systems.
 
Why not a Ri (rich) world? What about tech level? Could a TL 15 A class starport build say a TL 12 battleship of some sort? What about a TL 10 battleship? What about a world with one adjacent to it (jump 1) that has an industrial rating but is say Starport C? Couldn't they be used (assuming the right TL) to manufacture the necessary parts that the world with the A starport then assembles?

On the first part, I assume the planet is given the Rich designation because it is a biologically well off planet with populations that are small enough to be supported richly for 1000s of years, as opposed to a planet groaning under billions.

Since the max population for a pop 8 rich world would 99 million, the percentage engaged in shipyard work likely would be .1% of the population or 99,000 people. Assuming the standard still works, 1 ton per worker per year, that is in line with building and maintaining ACS ships, but not big ones.

I suppose one could argue that in desperate wartime you could go to 1% of the population engaged and that the Rich part should allow for their denizens to build quickly, and under TCS could use the 'hurry up' payments to maximize building. BUt it wouldn't be normal commercial or peacetime military business.

As for importing parts, I suppose that's possible, but it is going to be rough shipping out heavy streams of parts out of a C/D starport.

I could buy something more like a B starport IN shipping parts, but of course the local government/noble/corporate is going to strongly consider ceasing being just a supplier and go capture that build business themselves, especially since being industrial means never having to say you're sorry- er, no, means you can produce the parts more cheaply and undercut the competing shipyards for profits/market share.

I'd think that what they could build is far more a function of frequency of doing such construction and having the economy to support that construction in terms of money than it is about population or industrial status.

That is, if you have world that builds a battleship every, say, two years for the Imperium, et. al., then they have that capacity. On the other hand, a world deep in the Imperium where there's no need for such ships might not have the capacity to build them at all even as they turn out large liners and cargo ships by the dozen. The technology involved in the two isn't any more the same than it is for some shipyard to turn out mega container ships versus aircraft carriers today.

I'd think the question here is... How many large warships does the Imperium, etc., possess and of what types? Along with, how often are new ones constructed? That would drive the commonality of shipyards that could build these ships as those yards have to operate at a minimum of breaking even on production costs.

Well that gets into a whole mess of questions, much of which being OTU-related I haven't ever quantified.

Without answering that last paragraph, one could say that the shipyards that are A starports with E/F tech and IN is the effective economic/political limit as of the moment those UPP codes were determined, and shows what the Imperium has invested in doing. If the Imperium wanted more such capable systems, they would have let the contracts to fund the infrastructure and maintained it with contracts.

That may be an explanation for D/E/F TL IN worlds with C/D starports, they WERE on the Imperium military-industrial complex but force drawdowns have caused subsidized IN planets to lose their contracts and therefore not need/afford to maintain top flight ship infrastructure/shipyards/starports.
 
Both are nice little tweaks but, as Fly points out using the Marches, they make little difference to the Big Picture.

With that, I like them, even the "Harsh" version. I'd use them in MTU or a similar setting.

As for the SS3 missile rule, I've always "interpreted" the In requirement as a manufacturing requirement. Missiles are constructed in In systems. Missiles can be purchased in those systems and many other places. When you want to purchase missiles elsewhere, you'll be dealing with "supply & demand". The prices will be higher (or rarely lower!) and the selection will (or may not!) constrained.

I regularly fiddled with canonical prices in my games for everything, even occasionally fuel. I simply couldn't believe that an autopistol would always be 210Cr or that LS supplies would always be 2000Cr per stateroom per two weeks no matter where a port was located.

In my Fixers campaign, a cheap abundant stock of starship fungibles at an otherwise backwater port was a clue to a prospective job the players missed. (I later introduced the job directly via a patron.) In my Active Duty IISS, the same oddity was picked up on by the players and eventually led them to helping unmask a smuggling/piracy ring in the Trin Subsector's Zyra Cluster.

Anyway, nice rules for personalizing a setting. Thanks for sharing them. :)
 
I haven't really looked at the OTU and so I wouldn't know. However a quick and very cursory casual glance for the Spinward Marches from a Traveller Map dump shows that the IN classification cross-indexed with the starports yields something like only 1/4 of A/B starports being industrial.

I do know, I studied this intensively for quite some time. check this map to see the full picture (that's why I made it). while there are quite a few A/B yards scattered here and there on low-pop worlds, the worlds I cited are the high-pop worlds with significant yards. the lesser yards play little role from a sector-wide perspective.

heh. used to have this all memorized, noticed I forgot bevey. also I notice I don't have junidy listed as being industrial, thought it was, did I make a mistake?
 
Nice map, Fly. Thanks for posting it. You know...

The Lanth Abyss got a lot of press during GDW's life, mentions in library data, a Challenge article, and IIRC embedded in some rumor tables. Of course the physical part of the "abyss" most likely wasn't purposely created and instead showed up thanks to all the random rolls used to create the Marches. Once it was spotted, GDW decided to run with the nifty oddity the dice gave them.

Victoria and it's links with the Ancients shows up in 1979 in JTAS #2. The Marches supplement was published in '79 also. It would be interesting to know which came first or, as I suspect, both were developed around the same time and influenced each other. If pressed I'd guess the Marches supplement was finished or close to finished before the JTAS article because the supplement does not mention Victoria in it's Lanth blurb while the article mentions both Lanth and the Abyss.

Further derailing the thread and because your map reminded me of it, there's another abyss just rimward of the Lanth Abyss roughly centered on the Lunion-Glisten-Trin-Mora "Four Corners" region. Following the "shortest path for jump2 circumnavigation" requirement, this 4 Corners Abyss isn't a "simple" polygon like the Lanth Abyss but instead has two unequal "lobes"; the smaller spinward and the larger trailing.

I wonder what shenanigans a referee could get up to with this lesser abyss...
 
I wonder what shenanigans a referee could get up to with this lesser abyss...

I had envisioned the high flyer as operating in exactly this region. there is a very nice j3 chain of alternating tech/ag/industrial worlds (new rome-aki-tirem/ffudn-marasten-persephone-spirelle-adabicci-sting-gram/sacnoth), totally outclasses anything the j2 merchants can do and keeps one step ahead of typical police/mafia boats. not that jamison would do anything illegal of course (ahem), but someone might come looking for miya.
 
Grote, IMTU, operates a jump4 packet line for much the same reasons. The packets fly tight schedules along a Grote - Weiss - Glisten route and a Grote - Harvosette - Strouden route. Another jump4 courier flies a Grote - Caladbolg route.

You'll notice that all three routes connect Grote to the x-boat system.
 
sounds like someone on grote has something going on under the table.


Got it in one.

IMTU the leading "clan" in the Grote system is the Addakkumak. They were originally Trilateralist refugees from the Sword Worlds and they are deep in the pocket of the Ducal House of Glisten.
 
Nice map, a must have for all Zhodani commanders!

it is, but I'm sure the perfidious zhodani have better.

even travellermap.com doesn't allow one to see the "big picture". this sort of map lays out the big picture very clearly. enjoy.
 
I do know, I studied this intensively for quite some time. check this map to see the full picture (that's why I made it). while there are quite a few A/B yards scattered here and there on low-pop worlds, the worlds I cited are the high-pop worlds with significant yards. the lesser yards play little role from a sector-wide perspective.

heh. used to have this all memorized, noticed I forgot bevey. also I notice I don't have junidy listed as being industrial, thought it was, did I make a mistake?

I didn't comment on the rest of the conversation on this point because I don't really care at all about the OTU. However, I did go to the effort of doing a Traveller map dump and specifically looked for the industrial world eyecatcher in the Spinward Marches, hence my assertion.

Yet looking at your map it seems a lot more planets qualify as A/B IND then what I got in my text dump.

Is there some discrepancy in the use of Travellermap or proper trade coding that I am missing?
 
Is there some discrepancy in the use of Travellermap or proper trade coding that I am missing?

dunno. took the map straight out of lbb spinward marches supplement, with some revisions such as dropping tech levels and port levels for most low pop worlds - just can't see a pop 3 world supporting an A port and tech 13, eg (yeah, you can come up with reasons, but after ten times it gets draining). but the population levels are exactly out of lbbsm (except for any mistakes), and that was my primary interest.

except for writing up a bit about gudak now that I'm the "baron", haven't paid much attention to tm.
 
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