CT Only: Crew changes between editions.

[mike wightman]

While cherry picking the LBBs for my ultimate homebrew Traveller (hmm UHT - need to change that) I noticed that I can perform a cheat/fudge with drew in LBB2 81 edition that can not be done in 77 edition - because the rules are written slightly differently.

81 edition
pilot - required
navigator - one on any ship greater than 200t
engineer - one per 35t of drives on ships 200t or higher
steward - one per eight high passengers
medic - one on ships 200t of higher, one per 120 passengers.
gunner - one per turret

77 edition spoils things

pilot - required
navigator - one on any ship greater than 200t
engineer - one per 35t of drives on ships greater than 100t
steward - one per eight high passengers
medic - one on ships greater than 100t, one per 120 passengers.
gunner - one per turret

I wonder if there was deliberate intent behind the changing of the wording?

 

[pendragonman]

In 1981, Ships were only constructed in 100 Td increments. When you view the wording thru that lens, there is no difference.

It is only when ships are allowed to be constructed at any tonnage over 100 is there a variance in the usages.

E.G. a 150 Td ship vs a 200 Td ship

 

[aramis]

In 1981, Ships were only constructed in 100 Td increments. When you view the wording thru that lens, there is no difference.

False reading of the rules, tho'. The rules explicitly do allow ANY tonnage in whole tons between 100 and 5000 tons.

Bk2-81, p20-21: "1. Custom hulls with mass displacements other than the hull sizes shown on the drive potential table are treated as the next larger size. The maximum hull possible in these rules is 5000 tons."

 

[pendragonman]

False reading of the rules, tho'. The rules explicitly do allow ANY tonnage in whole tons between 100 and 5000 tons.

Bk2-81, p20-21: "1. Custom hulls with mass displacements other than the hull sizes shown on the drive potential table are treated as the next larger size. The maximum hull possible in these rules is 5000 tons."

And yet the books of that era have no custom examples that are not multiples of 100 Td. Further, since one uses the next largest size, how does that interfere with crew requirements as listed?

 

[aramis]

And yet the books of that era have no custom examples that are not multiples of 100 Td. Further, since one uses the next largest size, how does that interfere with crew requirements as listed?

A 201 ton needs a navigator; a 200 ton doesn't.

Under CT81, a 199 ton ship doesn't need a medic, but under CT-77 it does.

Also note: many of us fudged around with extracting the performance factor...

I used a spreadsheet to find the performance factors... some interesting hiccups...
Divide the performance below by the tonnage to get the rating, round down.

Drive	CT-77	CT-81
A	200	200
B	400	400
C	600	600
D	800	800
E	1000	1000
F	1200	1200
G	1600	1400
H	2000	1600
J	2100	1800
K	2200	2200
L	2300	2200
M	2400	2400
N	2600	2600
P	2800	2800
Q	3000	3000
R	3200	3200
S	3400	3400
T	3600	3600
U	3800	3800
V	4000	4000
W	5000	5000
X	6000	6000
Y	8000	8000
Z	12000	12000

 

[pendragonman]

I have not encountered that level of rules-lawyering when using CT. It is interesting to find that you all have, or have allowed it as refs.

 

[whartung]

And yet the books of that era have no custom examples that are not multiples of 100 Td. Further, since one uses the next largest size, how does that interfere with crew requirements as listed?

Because 99.9999% of the time, the nuance of a few tons doesn't really matter, may as well "round it up". Normally, though, the costs mount up to where folks try and make rational compromises. "We'd like a bigger boat, but can't quite afford it, and are stretched as thin as we can handle."

But, simply, most things are built "as small as necessary", with some exceptions -- and they're typically considered luxuries.

 

[Taav]

Also note: many of us fudged around with extracting the performance factor...

I used a spreadsheet ...

Totally permissible IYTU. However, OTU would direct the OP to CT errata and other sources.

If the 100+ dton ship possessed a jump-drive it would need a Navigator (Astrogator in T5 rule-set) or a similar substitute for NAV-1/Astrogation-1.

However, in and of itself, a Navigator in CT is not required unless you want to jump... (remember JOT for CT gives scouts Nav-0, and by extension, no negative modifier.)

 

[mike wightman]

Nope.

Until the ship is over 200t no navigator is required by the CT rules as written.

Navigators don't plot jumps, the jump cassettes or the generate programme do that in CT.

 

[Taav]

p 16 CT (with errata) .... a small-craft or non-starship can handle navigational requirements.

I assume you identify with the coterie that believes you can build starships without a starport.

 

[mike wightman]

And now for the full quote:

Navigator: Each starship displacing greater than 200 tons must have a navigator.
The pilot of a small craft or non-starship can handle its navigation requirements.

A world government can build military ships even if no starport is present:

alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

But that isn't from LBB1-3 so I usually ignore it unless it fits a particular adventure.

 

[Taav]

And now for the full quote:


A world government can build military ships even if no starport is present:

But that isn't from LBB1-3 so I usually ignore it unless it fits a particular adventure.

A character using skills for two roles are at -1 (CT and I will let you look it up). JOT is the only skill that allows for a null value in CT.

The second quote is incorrect. Check your source then repost and I will respond.

 

[mike wightman]

Lol, I really don't need to look it up

What is the skill roll for a navigator to plot a jump course?

There isn't one.

You do however need the navigator to pick up the jump cassette or generate programme and load it into the computer...

The second quote is from HG 1980 edition page 20, I will play nice and tell you where I found it - go and read it.

 

[Taav]

Planetary navies and ships yards for 35+ years. :rofl:

Shipyard does not equal starport. Shipyard navy = error.... keep going.

Mostly, just define a shipyard under, CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT (former license,) MgT (current license), T5; define starship versus craft, vessel, etc... again for 35+ years. Please take note of ALL the errata that is available too.

OR JUST ASSUME a planetary navy base was put on every word.

 

[mike wightman]

The rule in HG is pretty clear:

Availability: Starships (with jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A starport; non-starships (without jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A or class B starport.

So shipyards only exist at A and B starports - and please remember the CT only tag.

alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

Only way there can be no shipyard is if there is no A or B starport.

So no starport capable of building ships and yet a planetary navy can still build ships.

 

[Taav]

First, if you are not "jumping" you don't need a navigator/astrogator as stated.

Second, T5 reconned the jump criteria just like it placed a Knight on an Imperial world rather than a Baron. If you don't want to acknowledge unpublished errata then don't. However, currently, a jump requires an Astrogation check at 1D per parsec. You want to use a computer... use a computer skilled crew member.

Next, if you are jumping under CT without acknowledging changes to the universe you need a Pilot and Engineer (this is a role-count.) If the pilot is also the engineer both skills are now at -1. You must have at least an Engineer +1 skill to effectively sustain jump under CT. Therefore, you need a navigator (or a navigator-engineer again at -1; again, you need an engineer+1). (In this example, again, we are assuming that CT is unaffected by T5 rule/canon changes.)

Third...and a counterpoint.... if you build a small craft at a location determined by any planetary government.... by its very definition it is a shipyard ---- because you just built a [non-jump] ship on a piece of ground that is now called a shipyard (Webster's Dictionary). Now ... let's take that definition forward:

CT defines categories of ships on p. 16 (also the same page as elsewhere.)
MT defines categories ships on p. 57 (this may challenge your paradigm as it clearly has no "ship" in its definition.) MT also has a similar quote to your lift on page 61 under column 2 under "Tech Level." It is an error but it's there.

Also, before you go crazy, as a courtesy, make sure you check your "facts" as to A- and B- Starports versus STARSHIPS before you want to assert a TL10 planet with a Class B Starport is able to build a 5,0000 dTond Frigate with Jump-2.

 

[mike wightman]

First, if you are not "jumping" you don't need a navigator/astrogator as stated.

That's pretty obvious and has been in the rules since 77 edition.

Second, T5 reconned the jump criteria just like it placed a Knight on an Imperial world rather than a Baron. If you don't want to acknowledge unpublished errata then don't. However, currently, a jump requires an Astrogation check at 1D per parsec. You want to use a computer... use a computer skilled crew member.

This is a CT only thread - that means ...

Next, if you are jumping under CT without acknowledging changes to the universe you need a Pilot and Engineer (this is a role-count.) If the pilot is also the engineer both skills are now at -1. You must have at least an Engineer +1 skill to effectively sustain jump under CT. Therefore, you need a navigator (or a navigator-engineer again at -1; again, you need an engineer+1). (In this example, again, we are assuming that CT is unaffected by T5 rule/canon changes.)

Incorrect.
You do not need an engineer if your ship is 100t etc... just read the rules as written, they are right there in CT 77, 81, TTB, ST.
This is a CT only thread - T5 changes, TNE changes do not apply.

Third...and a counterpoint.... if you build a small craft at a location determined by any planetary government.... by its very definition it is a shipyard ---- because you just built a [non-jump] ship on a piece of ground that is now called a shipyard (Webster's Dictionary). Now ... let's take that definition forward:

It is a shipyard only the planetary navy can use, civilians need not apply and neither should off worlders.

CT defines categories of ships on p. 16 (also the same page as elsewhere.)
MT defines categories ships on p. 57 (this may challenge your paradigm as it clearly has no "ship" in its definition.) MT also has a similar quote to your lift on page 61 under column 2 under "Tech Level." It is an error but it's there.

CT only

Also, before you go crazy, as a courtesy, make sure you check your "facts" as to A- and B- Starports versus STARSHIPS before you want to assert a TL10 planet with a Class B Starport is able to build a 5,0000 dTond Frigate with Jump-2.

A starport B can not build jump ships - I don't see your point at all.

A planetary navy on a world with a type B starport could build said jump 2 starship though

 

[kilemall]

I have not encountered that level of rules-lawyering when using CT. It is interesting to find that you all have, or have allowed it as refs.

Makes sense to me as a regulatory/political thing.

For instance, GE made hundreds of 44-ton switcher locomotives because at 45 tons a 2 man crew was required- kept it 44 tons, only one crew needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_44-ton_switcher

 

[Condottiere]

Same formula with the number of seats on airliners, and probably toilets.

 

[kilemall]

A character using skills for two roles are at -1 (CT and I will let you look it up). JOT is the only skill that allows for a null value in CT.

The second quote is incorrect. Check your source then repost and I will respond.

Long as we are being nitpicky, JOT is explicitly defined as not being a replacement for actual skills or job positions. It's an "emergency what the hell only person that can try in absence of real careerist" skill.

MacGyver gets out of deadly situations, he doesn't become a bomb disposal expert.